I guess it's time for a bass upgrade

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
Position 4 is bad, what's it like with that subwoofer off? (overall)
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
I would have expected positions #1 and #4 would sum the best. Is that what you settled on?

This is a classic example of a room that needs at least two subs - every sub position has its own "mega-null".
 

John24ssj

Active Member
Position 4 is bad, what's it like with that subwoofer off? (overall)
Actually position 4 is good and really really important as it's the only place that allows sub to have mid-bass.
Withouth that sub you can defo tell mid-bass is not there
 

DodgeTheViper

Moderator
Yes I have tried those apart the right to the TV as that's where the tower speaker sits:
(old picture but shows the layout)
Right ok. There are other possible combinations but I would be really tempted to get your old two set up as well. Bit of a pain but give it a go if you can find the enthusiasm.
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
Actually position 4 is good and really really important and it's the only place that allows sub to have mid-bass.
Withouth that sub you can defo tell mid-bass is not there

The green and purple one?
 

scoobysmiff

Active Member
Out of interest, what are your crossover settings?
 

John24ssj

Active Member
So this is my current FR for the subs:
1629191788749.png


And currently rocking a 120Hz crossover (measuring subs to L+R):
1629191827250.png
 

John24ssj

Active Member

Dobbyisfree

Well-known Member
@Mr Wolf do you think there would be any benefit in trying PB3000 in position 4 facing in a different direction?
 

Dobbyisfree

Well-known Member
No. Tried every direction in my system and it made almost no difference at all.

Interesting. I get the LF reasons why but you (one) would still think with those huge front ports it would make a difference.
 

scoobysmiff

Active Member
What are your main L/R speakers set to, I'm guessing 80hz?
 

Jase

Distinguished Member
No. Tried every direction in my system and it made almost no difference at all.

Will depend on the room though. Changing the orientation of my subs made a fair bit of difference (especially from 60hz upwards).

IMG_20201014_191847.jpg


That's the subs firing up and down the room vs both at the nearest side walls vs both firing across the room at the opposite walls. All just rotated in the same positions.
 
Last edited:

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
Apart from the 70-80Hz null that sub FR looks actually looks pretty good to me.

I think my approach would be to use your Mini-DSP to add a 10dB house curve (which you should want anyway) and run a 80Hz crossover. You're shooting for the black line.

1629193935746.png


The -8dB dip in the 70-80-Hz dip is ironed out by the HC and simply saves the MiniDSP a job i.e. it doesn't need to pull back the gain in that area. To the extent there's anything left of it you could try and fill it in with the mains via positioning/EQ.
 

John24ssj

Active Member
@Mr Wolf do you think there would be any benefit in trying PB3000 in position 4 facing in a different direction?
Maybe but it would just look wrong, also I lost location 1 this morning actually:
IMG_20210817_115633.jpgIMG_20210817_115642.jpgIMG_20210817_115702.jpgIMG_20210817_115711.jpgIMG_20210817_115734.jpg


What are your main L/R speakers set to, I'm guessing 80hz?
They are currently set to 120Hz


Will depend on the room though. Changing the orientation of my subs made a fair bit of difference (especially from 60hz upwards).

View attachment 1556630

That's the subs firing up and down the room vs both at the nearest side walls vs both firing across the room at the opposite walls. All just rotated in the same positions.
Seems to make quite a different at the higher frequencies


Apart from the 70-80Hz null that sub FR looks actually looks pretty good to me.

I think my approach would be to use your Mini-DSP to add a 10dB house curve (which you should want anyway) and run a 80Hz crossover. You're shooting for the black line.

View attachment 1556632

The -8dB dip in the 70-80-Hz dip is ironed out by the HC and simply saves the MiniDSP a job i.e. it doesn't need to pull back the gain in that area. To the extent there's anything left of it you could try and fill it in with the mains via positioning/EQ.
Hmm I am rather vary of having a house curve as doing some reading a house curve is needed at lower listening volumes due to how brain works. But once you go to -15dB and move toward 0dB reference such house curve is not needed and just blows out the bass. Plus it would boost the low down bass compared to 50Hz-65Hz range that gives that chest slam if i'm correct?
Also the response above it just the subs, no mains involved.

My mains are actually performing really badly.
I mean just look at my mains (no crosover just set to large):
1628856589651.png



1628856602894.png


They are absolutely all over the place, and peaking over 100db at 41Hz just out of nowhere. I am just not sure what to do.
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
tbh with being that close to the rears I'd be looking at bipole speakers
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
Hmm I am rather vary of having a house curve as doing some reading a house curve is needed at lower listening volumes due to how brain works. But once you go to -15dB and move toward 0dB reference such house curve is not needed and just blows out the bass. Plus it would boost the low down bass compared to 50Hz-65Hz range that gives that chest slam if i'm correct?
A steeper House Curve is beneficial at lower listening levels but they're still desirable higher up as there' still a huge gap.

The equal loudness curve shows how about 108dB at 80Hz sounds as loud as 128dB at 20Hz. If 80Hz was the baseline calibration point that's like listening at -7dB given 115dB peaks.

1629199890404.png


You don't have to be as aggressive as 10dB but any size HC would help flatten out that dip. I'd certainly give it a try.
 

Dobbyisfree

Well-known Member
Just an observation, your sofas are very low aren't they? Your MLP must be barely higher than the top of the subs!
 

scoobysmiff

Active Member
I'd definitely look at bringing your L/C/R down to 80hz, centre down to 100 maybe but 120 is too high imo. Try it with the lower cross over settings and feed back what you think?
 

John24ssj

Active Member
A steeper House Curve is beneficial at lower listening levels but they're still desirable higher up as there' still a huge gap.

The equal loudness curve shows how about 108dB at 80Hz sounds as loud as 128dB at 20Hz. If 80Hz was the baseline calibration point that's like listening at -7dB given 115dB peaks.

View attachment 1556680

You don't have to be as aggressive as 10dB but any size HC would help flatten out that dip. I'd certainly give it a try.
Hmmmmmm that's interesting, I might have a look tomorrow!



Just an observation, your sofas are very low aren't they? Your MLP must be barely higher than the top of the subs!
It looks like that, but the ears of the listener are at least 30cm above the top of the subs :D


I'd definitely look at bringing your L/C/R down to 80hz, centre down to 100 maybe but 120 is too high imo. Try it with the lower cross over settings and feed back what you think?
Well 120Hz ave the best response with the subs to main time alignment. I was using this video as a guide:
 

scoobysmiff

Active Member
I'd say your losing far too much content with your mains at 120. LFE is a separate channel and does indeed stop at 120 which is why the sub is set that high, you will still get low frequencies sent to the LCR so crossing over at 120 means you lose a lot even if your slope is a shallow 6db, most at 12db though so a steeper drop off. I cross my mains at 60hz
 

John24ssj

Active Member
I'd say your losing far too much content with your mains at 120. LFE is a separate channel and does indeed stop at 120 which is why the sub is set that high, you will still get low frequencies sent to the LCR so crossing over at 120 means you lose a lot even if your slope is a shallow 6db, most at 12db though so a steeper drop off. I cross my mains at 60hz
Well for example 60Hz crossover my R speaker is as loud at 41Hz - 48Hz as it is a 85Hz. For some reason my denon is really not doing anything those massive peaks.
Right mains.png
 

sm1ggsy

Active Member
Try DEQ and RLO and do some REW sweeps with sub and centre, it’s a live house curve works very well if set up properly
 

Jase

Distinguished Member
Well for example 60Hz crossover my R speaker is as loud at 41Hz - 48Hz as it is a 85Hz. For some reason my denon is really not doing anything those massive peaks.View attachment 1556726

Your Denon has Audyssey XT which isn't anywhere near as effective as XT32 on the models further up the range unfortunately.
 

John24ssj

Active Member
Try DEQ and RLO and do some REW sweeps with sub and centre, it’s a live house curve works very well if set up properly
Will try thanks :)


Your Denon has Audyssey XT which isn't anywhere near as effective as XT32 on the models further up the range unfortunately.
Hmmm I am not sure If it got the subs aligned properly to the mains and if they are out phase causing any issues for the bass frequencies
 

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