Question Hue Lightstrip Kitchen Install (cutting, joining, extending)

Discussion in 'Smart Home, Climate Control & Security Forum' started by StormHD, May 23, 2018.

  1. StormHD

    StormHD
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    Hi all,

    We're having a new kitchen fitted, and as I already use Hue to control most of the lights in the house I wanted to use Lightstrips for the under-cabinet lighting as wells as the lighting on the plinths.

    There's essentially 3 runs I need.

    Plinths 260cm, 200 cm, 240cm (three rows)
    Cupboard 1 - 90cm
    Cupboard 2 - 105 cm
    Cubboard 3 100 cm.

    I'm really struggling on what I need to buy. I know I need one controller for the plinths, and can use extensions after that, but I'm struggling to piece it together. I'll get a 2m run, and in theory will need another 3x 1m extensions after that. I know I can cut extensions, but can I join them after they've been cut (e.g. 2m + 60cm then joining on to another 2x 1m as I go around the corner).

    Also - for the cupboards - I really need 3 x 1m extensions so the 2m that comes with a starter pack is a bit of a waste. The cupboards aren't together either so I need some extensions.

    Can anyone help?

    Thanks,
     
  2. pinnocchio

    pinnocchio
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    There's a number of ways to go here and honestly it would be useful if you could bang up some kind of schematic so that people could not only see the length of your required runs, but where they are relative to each other.

    Also a few questions.....

    Do you want individual control on each run or the 'whole group' turn on and off at the same time (and have the same colour), also for the cupboards would you 'like' to have the lights come on as the cupboard door was opened?

    You can connect cut pieces back together, but you'll either need some soldering skills (and know where to cut exactly as it's not where Philips tell you to) or you can use 'clipper' connectors (although I'm not sure if there's a 6 wire version available so I'd need to check).

    Happy to give you some pointers, but honestly anyone giving advice at the moment without having more info would IMHO be using too much guesswork.
     
  3. StormHD

    StormHD
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    Hi there,

    Many thanks for the offer of support, I certainly need it!

    [​IMG]

    That link should take you to the plan of the kitchen with the measurements included. Black lines are the strips which will be located near the kickboards. Orange are the cupboards. Note, the two Cupboards of 45cm & 60cm are next to each other, but different sizes, so I'll have to split the lightstrip into two here.

    There will be power near the kickboards. I'm also having plug sockets fitted to each of the cupboard runs. I've got 3 x Lightstrip kits (controller + 2m lengths of LEDs) which I bagged on a discount, but I'm happy to return a set if I don't need it.

    To answer your questions:

    1) I want to control the whole group ideally. However, the hue lights in the kitchen already (GU10s) are triggered by a motion sensor. So I think it should be easy enough to have the lightstrips added to that group and triggered the same way.

    2) Not fussed on having the lights come on when cupboards were opened (I had no idea that was possible!), mostly because they're going to be located under the units so won't be used to light up the contents of the cupboards.

    I hope that's enough info for you to start pointing me in the right direction.

    cheers,
     
  4. Member 804914

    Member 804914
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    I’ve just received your message on eBay. The first thing I need to know about, is the starter lightstrips you have. Philips have recently changed the design, which can now be a little limiting. Can the lightstrip be detached from the white control box, or is it soldered directly into it?
     
  5. StormHD

    StormHD
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    Hi, they’re unfortunately the ones which are fitted to the controller.
     
  6. StormHD

    StormHD
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    Is there an alternate solution which is compatible with Samsung SmartThings of Hue can’t be used this way?
     
  7. mushii

    mushii
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    I would recommend using normal 5050 LED ribbon, which can be purchased from most suppliers off the bay or amazon. I would recommend using a Wireless electronic ballast FLS-PP lp

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wireless-electronic-ballast-interface-certified/dp/B00NMSQ4QQ

    One of these effectively acts as two HUE controllers, one for colour and one for white only, so you could put white LED ribbon for counter lighting and coloured LED ribbon for the plinths.A 5m reel of white and 5m reel of RGB will be more than adequate

    Buy one two pin and one 4 pin connector kit and one 2 pin kit

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/pin-12mm-R...f_rd_t=40701&refRID=RSFV7D5A4Y7TPFWZ866N&th=1

    Add a 12v 6A PSU

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/JnDeeTM-AD..._rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=RSFV7D5A4Y7TPFWZ866N

    and you should be golden
     
  8. StormHD

    StormHD
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    Hi - doesn't look any cheaper than Hue, but I assume the advantage is that it's easier to extend?


    So just to confirm - that controller listed would work with SmartThings and could trigger the lights based on feedback from a SmartThings compatible motion sensor? Seems like it might even plug into the Hue system too...

    I think I'll need a 7M real of RBG for the plinths - how would I get it around corners? Would I have to cut and join it somehow?

    Also for the counter lighting - how would I control the lights in different cupboards? Is it possible to run some sort of connecting/extension wire between the two?

    Thanks
     
  9. mushii

    mushii
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    With the Hue LED ribbon the power output is fixed, so the more that you extend it, the dimmer it gets. Using the FLS-PP you can change the power supply if you need more power
    Going round corners is easy, you cut the ribbon at the cut points then you use one of those kits that I linked to to go round the corner, then you join another strip of LED ribbon. The FLS-PP is certified Zigbee compliant, so i see no reason for it not to work with SmartThings.

    I am already running an FLS-PP in my cinema room and it is flawless. For my kitchen extension I will wire the cornice lighting (colour) with a 4 strand RGB cable between the RGB ribbon and the FLS-PP and for the under counter I will connect White LED ribbon with a 2 strand cable. The FLSPP has 5 terminals RGBW+. The colour ribon connects to RGB+ and the White ribbon connects to W+. Hue sees them as 2 separate devices and lets you control them independently.

    The FLS-PP will sit on top of the cupboards and I will wire it (via a PSU) into my lighting circuit.
     
  10. pinnocchio

    pinnocchio
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    While Mushi is correct, there's ways to fix the extension power drop issue.....I'll post a longer reply later as I'm just heading out, but here's a quick few things I think it's worth knowing now.

    1. Hue now supports Zigbee 3 and they are just about to release a new version of their app that could have extra functionality supported only by Zigbee 3, so personally I'd stay in a Hue only environ if I can.

    2. We bought £2500 worth of assorted lighting from various different makes (Hue, Osram, Ikea, Lifx etc...) over Christmas to try things out.....because you only get to know for certain by trying them yourself. We ended up deciding on Hue everywhere, one reason being trying to mix different manufacturer products in an enviroment can get you to tear your hair out trying to get colours to match.

    3. As it seems you only want a single controller and then (for want of a better word) splicing that controller to lots of strips you'll need some cable extensions.

    4. Having two virtual controllers to control white and colour separately on a strip would be a PITA in my honest opinion, of course YMMV, I want to be able to say a single command to my Google Home and get the corresponding result.

    As I said, I'll address the extension power issue in a later post.

    Also it may be worth you reading my comments in this thread.

    https://www.avforums.com/threads/ik...-read-daylight-setting.2169412/#post-26226751
     
  11. mushii

    mushii
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    @pinnocchio I hear what you are saying but running 7m of LED Ribbon off a Hue ribbon controller will give very disappointing results. i have seen 5m and the LEDs lose 30 -40% of the brightness at max luminance. i can only assume at 7m you will be down to 50% which will definitely lose that 'wow' factor. At this point in time I do not see an alternative product that provides HUE integration and allows for longer lengths of ribbon LED as the HUE product is inadequate. Can you recommend an alternative - without hacking the HUE controller which invalidates its CE marking and electrical safety?

    Info on Zigbee 3.0 from Philips

    What will a consumer notice in the change to Zigbee 3.0?
    Zigbee 3.0 is designed to be backwards compatible to Zigbee Light Link. As such a consumer will not notice any difference in behaviour between Zigbee 3.0 and Zigbee Light Link devices.

    Will Zigbee 3.0 lights work with the current Philips Hue bridge?
    At present the Philips Hue bridge only supports Zigbee Light Link compliant products and devices. We will release an update to both the v1 (round) and v2 (square) Philips Hue bridges during the first quarter of 2018 to additionally add support for Zigbee 3.0 lights.

    Does that mean Zigbee 3.0 third party bulbs will not work with the Philips Hue bridge?
    At present Philips Hue bridges only support Zigbee Light Link (ZLL) compliant products and devices. Third party lights which are compliant with ZLL will continue to work as before. Third party lights which support Zigbee 3.0 cannot be added to a Philips Hue bridge at present but we are committed to add support for this in Q1 2018.

    Does this mean that Ikea bulbs will start working with the Philips Hue bridge?
    We have recently observed a software update to IKEA’s Tradfri lighting products.
    Updated IKEA Tradfri lights now work with the Philips Hue bridge.
    Tradfri bulbs with older software versions cannot be added to the Philips Hue bridge since their implementation of Zigbee Light Link is not consistent with the Zigbee Light Link specification. If IKEA launches new Zigbee 3.0 compatible Tradfri bulbs, they would become compatible when we add support for Zigbee 3.0 lights.
    We recommend customers to use the Philips Hue system with Philips Hue products or Friends of Hue products and systems to ensure seamless interoperability, creating an optimal user experience.

    When will Philips Hue start certifying its products with Zigbee 3.0 instead of Zigbee Light Link?
    Philips Hue is committed to certify new products launched in 2018 using Zigbee 3.0 instead of Zigbee Light Link. Since Zigbee 3.0 is backwards compatible to Zigbee Light Link this change will not have an impact on the performance of the products.

    Will Philips Hue upgrade the existing products to be certified with Zigbee 3.0?
    No, Philips Hue does not plan to software update our existing Philips Hue lights to be certifiable with Zigbee 3.0. Since, Zigbee 3.0 is backwards compatible this does not cause any compatibility issues. Philips Hue does plan to software update the Philips Hue bridge 2.0 to be certifiable with Zigbee 3.0 during 2018.

    Will third party bulbs work with the Philips Hue bridge after this change?
    Third party products which implement the Zigbee Light Link specification remain compatible with the Philips Hue hub. In addition, once we have added support for Zigbee 3.0 products to the system, third party lights which implement the Zigbee 3.0 product will be compatible. Some features which require software capabilities or certifications on top of the Zigbee standards are only available for Philips Hue and Friends of Hue products.

    The FLS-PP is HUE Lightlink compatible and should therefore continue to work without a problem
     
  12. pinnocchio

    pinnocchio
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    Hi

    You could use signal amplifiers (effectively boosters) that would offset the signal loss issue and they are pretty dirt cheap (I've seen RGBWW ones for under $10).

    Once I've had a chance to sit down and look at your schematic properly I'll come back with a couple of suggestions, may take till Thursday as I'm pretty swamped right now.

    Also while I understand what the various spec sheets say 'should' happen the new philips app is due to be released any day now so why don't we wait to see what it offers.
     
  13. mushii

    mushii
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    As the Hue 3.0 ap is now 2 months overdue with no official launch date from Philips that could be a lengthy wait.
     
  14. StormHD

    StormHD
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    Thanks all for the responses so far.

    So I've taken a look at my options, and I've considered factors such as cost, ease of implementation and ease of ongoing use. I'm going to plump for a 100% hue solution.

    I managed to get 3 x Hue controllers for Lights.co.uk a couple of weeks back for £51 each. I was going to either send some back or use a controller elsewhere if I could easily extend from an existing controller.

    What I'm planning on doing is using one controller for the pliths/kickboard, and adding 5 extension units to it. That's that area covered.

    I've then got 3 'groups' of cupboards that require lighting. I'll use my remaining two controllers for that purpose and buy a forth controller.

    I did look at using an extension cable between the two cupboards on the same wall, but I've ruled that out because:

    -The extension wire cables are about £20
    -I'd then need two 1m Lightstrip extensions to cover both cupboards. So I'm up to £60 ish then - it's as cheap to get another Hue Unit.
    -Whilst I can shave that down by reusing an offcut of one of the 2m strips - The most I'd save is £40 (the cost of the two Hue Lightstrip Extensions) - weighing that up against the time messing around soldering and the fact that I'd have to chase through the wall to run the cable - It's an easy decision.

    I'm still concerned about the possible power drop on the run for the plinths - hopefully pinnochio has a fix for that. I'll have a google myself to be sure.

    Thanks again for everyone's input.
     
  15. mushii

    mushii
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    My only comment is that with 6m of ribbon on your kickboards, using the HUE controller, you will lose nearly 50% of your light output per LED they will appear quite dim. Inserting signal amplifiers is going to be 'messy' and will need more cable as they need to be inserted between the individual strips like this

    [​IMG]

    They will also need separate power running to the amplifier as effectively they are another power supply. If you search these forums you will find plenty of people who have been down the same route as yourself and have come to the conclusion the the Dresden FLS-PP (which requires no soldering) is the easiest and most cost effective solution to longer lengths (over 3m) of HUE light strip, due to the limitations of the HUE hardware. There are several hacks available on Youtube on how to add larger power supplies to the HUE lightstrip but they require dis-assembling the controller and some re-soldering. Your best bet will be to buy another HUE controller and to run 3m on each one, with a controller at each end and the LED ribbon coming together in the centre, but not joined, to give the impression of one continuous strip, but again you will need to run another power cable from your lighting ring.
    Good luck with your kitchen and I hope that you find a solution that works for you :)
     
  16. mushii

    mushii
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    @pinnocchio I take it back about HUE 3.0. It looks like the roll-out started today. Lets see what it brings :)

    UPDATE

    Nicer user interface with a few more bells and whistles. Happily my FLS-PP's are working even better
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
  17. StormHD

    StormHD
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    Hi Mushii,

    Thanks again for the advice. I'd not spotted the youtube videos, but the 'guides' I spotted around increasing power output looked pretty complex.

    Your advice is sound - looks like I've got two options then:

    1) Just two Hue controllers for the plinths. As I've got 7m that needs to be covered I'd probably need to run about 3.5 of each controller. So that would be two additional controllers (£65 each) and 3/4 extension cables (depending on willingness to solder an off cut). So total about £190/210 extra.

    2) Use the FPS option you mentioned initially for the plinth run. Cost would be controller (£52), power supply (£11) and LEDs (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tingkam®-W...1527600673&sr=1-6&keywords=5050+led+strip+10m) (£30). Total £93.

    Option 2 is considerably cheaper, and looks like there's minimal messing about. I've still got two concerns though:

    1) How controlleable are they from the Hue app? Will I be able to trigger them to come on via a Hue motion sensor as my ceiling lights (and future under cab Hue lightstrips) do? Will they be able to form part of a 'scene' in conjunction with the other Hue Lightstrips & bulbs? The reason I ask this is I'd like to say to Alexa "set scene A" and have all lights in the room adjust to a pre-config setting.

    2) I expect there would be a mismatch in colours between the Hue strips and a 3rd party set. I wasn't thinking of having them the same colour anyway, so not a major concern. Also - if the plinth set would be much dimmer with a 100% hue solution then I wouldn't get a good match anyway.

    I suppose a third option would be to buy the hue extensions and see if I was bothered by the lower hue output. It sounds like you've had a bad experience, but others on the net didn't seem as phased.
     
  18. mushii

    mushii
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    Hi @StormHD the Hue App sees them as a HUE product, the only thing that it doesnt do is update the FLS-PP firmware, other than that it behaves just like any other HUE device. I cant comment on the colour difference between generic 5050 LED Ribbon and HUE Ribbon as I only use the Generic, as it is much cheaper. It also looks like the FLS-PP is now seen as one device by the HUE app and not colour and white as before.

    I use HUE switches to turn my FLS-PP on and off manually as well as it running in several HUE routines and is integrated with Alexa and IFTTT and all work like all my other HUE bulbs. As I have said, I am about to put a 40m2 extension on my kitchen and will be using FLS-PP's to control my lights almost identically to you on my cabinets. I am also looking at putting an embedded strip above the bi-fold doors to add colour downlights on the doors.
     
  19. StormHD

    StormHD
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    Thanks again Mushi. Ok, so I'll use my 3 x Hue controllers for the cupboards (I've already got them, and there's no cost saving associated with such a short run).

    For my 4th controller I can get the FLS-PP kit from Amazon - if it doesn't work for whatever reason, they've got a great returns policy.

    Could you validate my purchase choices?

    Controller:
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wireless-electronic-ballast-interface-certified/dp/B00NMSQ4QQ?tag=av0c-21

    LEDs:
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tingkam®-W...1527600673&sr=1-6&keywords=5050+led+strip+10m

    Those LEDs come with a power supply. Will that suit my needs or will I likely need the one you linked to previously? Also - any opinions on the LEDs I selected? I'd rather have a 10m run and cut it down to size than mess about with anything shorter. I know nothing about LEDs brands/models etc. so any pointers to a 'proven' set would be appreciated.

    Thanks,
     
  20. mushii

    mushii
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    I think that the Generic 5050 are much of a muchness. The PSU should be fine for upto 10m. The one thing that you may want is a female PSU pigtail to connect the PSU to the FLS-PP module. If you PM me your details, I have a load of them. I'll put you a couple in a jiffy bag and post them out to you. Otherwise you may want to order some RGBW wire so that you can separate the controllers location from the LED Ribbon. i linked some in my original post.
    Hope that this is of some help
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
  21. pinnocchio

    pinnocchio
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    OK, I wanted to wait till the new version of the App shipped and I was sure of the functionality before I said this.

    The new Philips API does not support certain functionality on bulbs other then their own, specifically entertainment areas and certain scenes.

    The argument they are using for this is that the firmware in their own products has specific known latency and they can therefore program things like entertainment areas knowing how fast the bulbs will react, they can't guarantee the same of other manufacturers products so have excluded them.

    Have a read on the Hue reddit subreddit to see specifics.

    Now this may not matter to you, however the day you decide to throw a party and your kitchen lights won't sync with the rest of the system you may feel a bit let down.

    So if you want to do this....

    Insane Hue entertainment (huestacean) and...


    or this



    you have to use Hue bulbs.
     
  22. mushii

    mushii
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    For me this makes no difference at all. If I wanted my kitchen to look like a cheap nightclub I’d have installed DMX controllers which do a far better job of syncing sound and lights. That video imho looked awful, a bit like the £30 disco lights that Maplin used to sell.

    The dynamic bias lighting looked a little better on the TV, but not really relevant for a kitchen.

    It’s nice that Philips have added some playful functionality but I think for the majority of people looking to fit hue controllable lights in a kitchen, this is way down their priority list.
     
  23. Atavus

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    I do silly stuff with mine on Halloween to entertain the kids. That's just one day a year.
     
  24. pinnocchio

    pinnocchio
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    Possibly so, but I don't presume to know what @StormHD may or may not want to do with his system, what I will continue to do is point out any issues that may limit how his system works going forward.

    While the disco flashing light syndrome is something people over 14 years old move past pretty quickly the non ability to do scenes is a much more important part of this and points to that Philips may decide to introduce other limitations later.

    Thus I stand by my view that for long term compatibility sticking hue only is the safer option and spending a bit more now may save extra spend later. After all you don't have to do everything today.

    Good luck whatever you decide.
     
  25. mushii

    mushii
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    Unfortunately HUE do not produce a light strip product that is adequate for users needs over 3m without either compromising luminance or requiring additional non-hue boosters inserting in between light strips, or using multiple kits. Hence for a seamless solution the only alternative is third party products, which many users on these forums have discussed at length. Hue 3.0 has in no way degraded the functionality that the FLS-PP units had prior to the upgrade to 3.0 and they still continue to function within the HUE ecosphere and can be controlled within the HUE app.
     
  26. Member 804914

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    I came up with a solution for you, but looks like you may have set on something else. With this solution you would need to solder pins at the 1m line, where the cupboard is on the top left. That is something I can do for you.

    You should be aware that you can only cut the lightstrips every 33cm (where the cut line is). If you cut outside of these lines, past any chips, resistors or LED's, none of the LED's within that 33cm section will work. The rest of it is achievable with cables that I can provide.

    See attached picture
     

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  27. Delltron

    Delltron
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    Mushii is the philips Hue light strip plus not 24v and therefore should easily run over the 3m length?

    Not an electrician but this was certainly my understanding. I am going to be posting shortly, new here, very similar to this topic but still a few unanswered questions.
     
  28. Jamie

    Jamie
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    It's not an electrician thing, the Hue would easily work with a longer cable joining 2 lengths if you carefully solder the extension cable.

    The issue Mushii was referring to is that the Hue strip is a fixed brightness, if you add extensions then the whole length retains the same brightness as a 2m kit bit that brightness is spread out over a longer length. This is just the way Hue strip works.
     
  29. Atavus

    Atavus
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    It’s more accurate to say it has fixed power, thus brightness reduces as you extend.
     
  30. mushii

    mushii
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    It is 24v with a 20w psu. Which means that as you add length, that power gets shared across each strip consequently the light output per strip decreased
     

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