HTPC Peformance - You Don't Need a Fancy Graphics Card unless you're going BR/HD-DVD

[Zarch]

EDIT: Can't believe i spelt Performance wrong in the title........ what a [email protected]!!


After spending months putting togther my HTPC (see thread in sig) i've spent ages testing every codec for every file type out there to ensure i get a) the best performing codec and b) the best quality codec. (for info, i've built my HTPC on Windows XP SP2 and all these tests were conducted using Media Player Classic and then Graphedit to be sure the right codecs were being used(apart from PowerDVD obviously))

I've put this together because if there was something like this around when i built my HTPC it would have been soooo much easier. LOL. Hope it helps guys!!


One more thing, if you post a question up and someone goes to the trouble of answering you, please have the courtesy to use the "thanks" button to show your appreciation. Rudeness is not a welcome attribute on these forums.


So...... My investigations have lead me to the following conclusions.

WMV
Primary:
Windows Media Player 11 (free)
Alternatives:
None really

x264 encodes (usually found in mkv containers)
Primary:
Core AVC ($15)
Alternatives:
ffdshow (but is not truly multi-threaded so can struggle on slower dual core CPUs)
PowerDVD (not all x64 encodes adhere explicitly to the h264 standard and so struggle to play, its pretty hit and miss at the moment, plus its expensive)

1080i mpeg2
Primary:
ffdshow (free)
Alternatives:
ATI Avivio (had to mess about with interlacing to get it working, not what you want to be doing in a stable system)
Cyberlink Video/SP (worked, but expensive)

HD-DVD & Blu-Ray Orignals
Primary:
Power DVD ($100)
Alternative:
None

Audio
Primary:
I use only ffddhow (free) (EDIT: I use AC3filter now as there are problems with ffdshow and DTS tracks) And its free!
Alternatives:
I did experiment with ffdshow but it struggles with DTS soundtracks.

i think with the list above i've got every file type covered. WMV rips, x264 rips (usually in mkv containers), 1080i mpeg2 and the HD-DVD and BR originals.

I did try putting a collection of samples of the above filetypes together and posting them somewhere so that everyone could try them out of their systems, but with copyright resctrictions i was finding it difficult to find appropriate versions of certain filetypes, so i've not been able to fo that, which is a shame. So what i did instead was find the highest bitrates of each filetype in my collection and use them to do some benchmark tests.

The results of which are shown below.

At first i did all the tests using my ATI 2600 Pro PCI-e card in the HTPC as i assumed (and we all have at some stage), that you need a fancy graphics card for playback of HD material. All files were streamed from my NAS box via a mapped drive.

But after much reading up on the subject, it turns out you don't really need a fancy graphics card, its more CPU power. Its only when you play back Blu-Ray and HD-DVD original material that your fancy graphic card comes into the equation and you benefit from hardware acceleration.

So to prove the theory, i whipped out the ATI 2600 from the HTPC and ran the same tests, but this time using the pathetic onboard S3 VIA Chrome HC IGP graphics, which is AGP based with 128mb shared memory.

And wow, what do you know. Hardly any CPU performance difference between having the super duper 2600 Pro in there and the onboard card.

Even though i was unable to get GPU stats out of the onboard card, at no point did the playback stutter or anything like that. So i assume it was coping just fine with what was being shown.

Unfortunatley, Power DVD didn't see the onboard card as being good enough for playing back HD-DVD and Blue Ray stuff, but it was fine for the rest.

So the advice is this, get a decent processor for your HTPC and you'll be fine to playback ALL filetypes. You'll only need a decent graphics card for playing back Blu-Ray and HD-DVD orignals. And by decent, i only mean something like a ATI 2400 XT or 2600 Pro.... no need to spend £100+ (unless you plan on gaming too)

Hope this helps a few people decide on the specs for their new HTPC builds.

I'm hoping to add some more tests when i get a "low-end" PCI-e graphics card from somewhere. That will then give me the middle ground figures. Hopefully it might do the PowerDVD tests. (any thoughts on what i should get to try that? ie the lowest and cheapest card powerdvd will play BR and HD-DVD?)

Any questions please let me know.

Finally, i'm not for one minute suggesting you base your HTPC around a rubbish onboard graphics card, i'm just highlighting that you don't need whopping GPU to do the job, when a nice basic DVI output card will do just as well.

For info, i'd recommend the ATI 2400XT, 2600Pro, 2600XT and the 3850 series of cards for HTPC use, but NOT the 2400Pro. The 2400Pro has difficulty with "certain" file types and circumstances. (see the ATI 2x00 Owners Thread over on avsforum for more info: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=872538)

The 2400XT will be good enough for ALL high-def playback, that both file-based and disc-based. But you might want to choose a more powerful model if you have other asperations for your machine. ie gaming with the 3850 cards.

 

[low-def.]

Great bit of inorfmation there, especially seeing as I am building a htcp.

But what 'decent' gpu would you recommend ?

This is really giving me a headache. I am looking at spending no more than say 110.00 max.

 

[Zarch]

Hey, thanks for all the "thanks", really appreciated!!

During my testing in the last week i nearly got the 720p wmv and x264 encodes running on a Celeron 2.66ghz and onboard graphics on an old machine. (it only maxxed out now and again and was nearly watchable!!)

Ideally we could do with hearing whats the lowest spec people have got things working on. So please let us know.

As for the GPU. i'd recommend either ATI 2400 XT or 2600 Pro. (but not the 2400Pro as I have read it can struggle certain interlaced files) Both cards will easily hardware decode BR and HD-DVD(as shown above), definatley no need to spend £100 on a graphics card for HTPC use only. And you've got more passive options with the lesser cards like those.

But if you plan on playing games, then thats another story!! I'd have to hand you over to the gaming experts!!

 

[Zarch]

Just to clarify the situation at the moment reagrding x264 encodes. (which usually come in mkv containers)

It is very hit and miss whether they playback using the Power DVD codec. This is because when they've been encoded some of parameters within the encodes don't explicitly adhere to the h264 standard. And as such PowerDVD doesn't want to play them. (as it uses the h264 to the letter!)

The main parameter is question is num_ref_frames, which has to be 4 or less to be compliant. But in most rips you find it is set to 8.

Use AVInaptic to interogate your x264 encodes.
http://fsinapsi.altervista.org/

But if the encodes DO adhere to the standard, then apparantly you will be able to play them using PowerDVD AND benefit from hardware acceleration. I'm yet to see this and i think i'm going to try some testing myself.

For a full picture of the goings on, then visit the "ATI 2x00 Series Owners Thread" over on AVSFORUM: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=872538 (117 pages and growing.... but a good read!! )

So as it stands, to play x264 encodes you only need CPU power at moment and the correct codec. ffdshow is an option, but it is not truly multi-threaded. This can cause problems on lower end multi-core cpu's as one of the two cpu's can get maxxed out which can lead to stuttering playback. You are far better paying the $15 for CoreAVC as this is truly multi-threaded and makes full use of all available cores.(duo or quad)

Hopefully in the future though, the guys who encode using x264 will take on board the new findings with the h264 standards and parameters and we'll be able to start using the PowerDVD codec.

 

[ethanol]

Great thread - Really helpful as I'm about to put together an HTPC.

Is a 4800+ considered a decent enough CPU? I was going to pair it with a M/B with the X1250 onboard GPU (Gigabyte mATX) which should also cope with a bit more than "standard" stuff, has Optical SPDIF (need) and 4x SATAs.

My dilemna is that I can get a 2400XT in Oz for approx. $50 - should I stick one in or wait until I actually get around to plugging in a BR/HD DVD drive. By then, can probably get an even better card for the same money anyway and looks like the CPU/X1250 should cope with most stuff until that time comes.

 

[insomniak123]

i was surprised to find that my x264 encodes (720p) playback very nicely on my Sempron 3000+ (1.8Ghz)

played through zoom player, work a treat

 

[Zarch]

Great thread - Really helpful as I'm about to put together an HTPC.

Is a 4800+ considered a decent enough CPU? I was going to pair it with a M/B with the X1250 onboard GPU (Gigabyte mATX) which should also cope with a bit more than "standard" stuff, has Optical SPDIF (need) and 4x SATAs.

My dilemna is that I can get a 2400XT in Oz for approx. $50 - should I stick one in or wait until I actually get around to plugging in a BR/HD DVD drive. By then, can probably get an even better card for the same money anyway and looks like the CPU/X1250 should cope with most stuff until that time comes.

I would have thought the 4800+ would be more than plenty.

http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=882&model2=915&chart=431

If you look at this chart from toms hardware, the 4800+ comes out better than and E4300 when encoding mpeg2 into h264, so quite a good test as my rig is E4400 and works fine. So i would say it should cope with 1080p no probs.

Personally, i'd hold off the graphics card. If you're not going down the HD-DVD/BR route i'd save your money and upgrade later like you say.

 

[Zarch]

i was surprised to find that my x264 encodes (720p) playback very nicely on my Sempron 3000+ (1.8Ghz)

played through zoom player, work a treat

I think we've been brainwashed into thinking we need top end kit for HD playback. I know i did early on. But if you get the right software and codecs in place its suprising what you can get working on lesser spec hardware.

 

[GoldCoast]

I think we've been brainwashed into thinking we need top end kit for HD playback. I know i did early on. But if you get the right software and codecs in place its suprising what you can get working on lesser spec hardware.

will these files play in VISTA Media center and how do you choose the right codecs for that.

 

[ethanol]

I would have thought the 4800+ would be more than plenty.
....
Personally, i'd hold off the graphics card. If you're not going down the HD-DVD/BR route i'd save your money and upgrade later like you say.

Cheers - sounds like a plan (at least until I change my mind again!)

 

[Zarch]

will these files play in VISTA Media center and how do you choose the right codecs for that.

I did a search in google and found this for vista:
http://www.respectsakura.org/2006/10/17/mkvogmmp4-support-in-vista-20-visual-edition/

Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you want to know anything, type it into google. Theres always someone who has done it before you and is willing to share it.

I don't normally advocate installing codec packs, i'd rather install the seperate codecs and programs myself, but the above tutorial holds your hand all the way through, so it might not be a bad start for you.

Beware though, CCCP installs ffdshow as its x264 codec. If you've got a low end dual proc CPU you will hit problems with 1080p stuff as ffdshow is not multi-threaded and you end up maxxing out one of the cpu's. CoreAVC is a better bet, although it is $15, it is multi-threaded.

 

[rcadey]

have been testing (rather unscientifically) an onboard only set up for playing HD-DVD/Blu-Ray.

Gigabyte GA-MA69GM-S2H uATX M/B (ATI onboard x1200 graphics)
AMD Dual Core 6000
2GB DDR2 800MHz Memory
LG GGW-H20L HD-DVD/Blu-Ray player
PowerDVD ultra
Vista Home Premium 32 bit

this set up can be made to run cool and very quiet.

this set up will play HD discs with between 50 and 80% CPU - not seen a dropped frame. This is at 720p and 1080i - not been able to test 1080p yet.

 

[Zarch]

Thanks for that Rcadey.

I would imagine the high'ish CPU figures are due to you getting no mpeg4 hardware relief from the x1200 card. But seeing as you've got enough CPU power, it doesn't really matter!!

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3072&p=2
Quote: "For video acceleration features, the X1250 is capable of hardware acceleration of MPEG-2 and WMV9 playback. MPEG-4 playback decode is not hardware accelerated, but it is supported in software via the driver. DVD and TV (both SD and HD resolution) playback can be offloaded from the CPU, but we have seen some playback issues with HD media formats at 1080p with processors slower than an E6420."

Whereas if you'd put say a ATI 2x00 series card in there, your CPU usage would drop considerably as it would take some of the load when playing Blu-Ray and HD-DVD as that card does have mpeg4 acceleration.

 

[Zarch]

For info, this is the current minimum requirement for HD playback (Blu-Ray and HD-DVD) as per the Power DVD website.

Processor

Intel (Minimum):

Pentium 4 541 3.2 GHz, Pentium D 840 3.2 GHz, Pentium D 930 3.0 GHz or 940 3.2 GHz, Core Duo T2400 1.83 GHz, Pentium M 755 2.0 GHz

Intel (Recommended):

Pentium EE 840 3.2 GHz or 955 3.4 GHz, Pentium D 945 3.4 GHz, 950 3.4 GHz or 960 3.6 GHz, Core Duo T2500 2.0 GHz, T2600 2.16 GHz or T2700 2.33 GHz, Core 2 Duo E6300 1.8 GHz, E6400 2.13 GHz, E6600 2.4 GHz, E6700 2.66 GHZ or X6800 2.93 GHz, T7200 2.00 GHz, T7400 2.16 GHz, T7600 2.33 GHz

AMD (Minimum):

Athlon 64 X2 3800+ 2.0 GHz or 4000+ 2.0 GHz, Turion 64 X2 TL-50 1.6 GHz, TL-52 1.6 GHz or TL-56 1.8 GHz

AMD (Recommended):

Athlon 64 FX FX-60 2.6 GHz or FX-62 2.8 GHz, Athlon 64 X2 4200+ 2.2 GHz, 4400+ 2.2 GHz, 4600+ 2.4 GHz, 4800+ 2.4 GHz or 5000+ 2.6 GHz, Turion 64 X2 TL-60 2.0 GHz


Graphics Cards and Chipsets (one of these)

Intel 965 graphics
nVidia: GeForce 7600 GT, GeForce 7800 GTX 512, GeForce 7900 GX2, GeForce 7900 GTX, GeForce 7950 GX2, GeForce 8400 series, GeForce 8500 series, GeForce 8600 series, GeForce 8800 series
ATI (minumum requirements): ATI Radeon X1600 series, X1800 series, X1900 series
ATI (recommended requirements): ATI Radeon HD 2400, 2600, 2900 series
Video RAM: Graphics card memory requires 256 MB or above

 

[rcadey]

in an HTPC you are obviously looking for the right trade off of performance/price/power/cooling/noise/form factor
most of the time cheap/small/quiet is where you are aiming - you are then looking to tune the spec to JUST do the job - any more and you are wasting money/noise/volume
it looks to me as though onboard graphics are at the point now where they are viable for HD playing providing you get the right on board graphics/CPU combination
doing without a graphics card can save money/wasted heat and space

 

[BiffBoy]

I''ve been looking to build a sub £300 HTPC for BD & HD files playback for a while (see my other thread) but the opportunity to have a laptop as my "main use" PC has presented itself (it's a freebee), which means I can hopefully use my older PC's guts in a HTPC.

This is what I have and what I believe I will need to upgrade to make it play BDisc's and HD files:

AMD Sempron 2800+ (1.6HGz)
1GB Ram
no PCI-E - which I thought would be a killer..!

Woefully inadequate I know but I have just found that there are AGP ATI HD 24000 Pro VGA cards available for less than £40 which I believe will take all the load on the HD side of things.

Do you think this will work ok playing Blu-Ray Discs and HD files up to 720p (no need for 1080p) ?

If needed I could upgrade my CPU to an AMD Athlon 64 X2 3600+ (2GHz) Socket 939 512KB L2 Cache OEM Processor for £30 ish but if I don't have to then my moola will go towards a nice HTPC style case.

 

[Zarch]

Biffa,

I think you'll be struggling with your Sempron, especially for x264 and wmv files. I've got an Athlon XP 2800+ (2.00ghz) machine and that wont play 720p files, it maxes at 100%.

You might get away with proper Blu-Ray and HD-DVD original discs though and a hardware accelerated card though like you mention.

Although i believe there are issues with the AGP versions of the ATI range and acceleration/drivers at the moment.

I'd suggest you take at a look over at avsforum on the 2x00 Owners Thread before purchasing to make sure it will do what you want it to.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=872538

Personally, if you find that the AGP versions do what you want, then i'd go for the 2600Pro over the 2400Pro. (unless you can find a 2400xt in agp)

 

[Zarch]

Another update on the x264 hardware acceleration from DJblu over on avsforum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12449406#post12449406

Basically, he is saying this:

"I have done some more testing with x264 and found that if you want Hardware Acceleration on any H264/AVC HD stream encoded with x264 then the following fixes the 1080p(black screen) & 720p (slow down)

When encoding use the following.

High Profile Level 4.1 < - Max that it will go to before skipping frames

1080p - Number of Reference frames must be equal to or less than 4
720p - Number of Reference frames must be be equal to or less than 8
Mixed Reference Frames must be false.
B Frames must equal 2
Adaptive B frames must be false

Happy encoding!"

Hopefully everyone who encodes using x264 will pick up on these changes.

 

[BiffBoy]

I think you'll be struggling with your Sempron, especially for x264 and wmv files. I've got an Athlon XP 2800+ (2.00ghz) machine and that wont play 720p files, it maxes at 100%.

What VGA card are you using here?

 

[Zarch]

What VGA card are you using here?

A really old Dual Head Matrox G450.

 

[BiffBoy]

But surely a newer HD 24xx card would take the load off the CPU and would then happily play 720p & other HD files as I believe that's the point of the cards?

 

[Zarch]

But surely a newer HD 24xx card would take the load off the CPU and would then happily play 720p & other HD files as I believe that's the point of the cards?

Surely..... now theres a word i used a few months ago!! lol. This whole thread was for that very reason!! Surely i thought...... errr, NO!

ATI 2x00 cards only give hardware relief on proper HD-DVD and Blu-Ray discs (or "exact" rips from discs) when played back via PowerDVD.

encoded rips in wmv, mkv, x264.... anything that is floating about and you play back using media player, mediaportal etc etc etc DOES NOT get hardware acceleration from your fancy graphics card (see first post for proof!).

there are exceptional circumstances where you'll get hardware relief for h264-avc files (see earlier in this thread)

So in effect, your fancy card does a great job on original media, but does nothing for ripped material. (maybe this should be a sticky cos its the first question people ask now!! LOL).

Hope that helps Biffa.

You're probably better off getting a onboard GPU solution and a decent CPU as Rcadey has got...... if i was doing this again, thats what i'd do!!

 

[BiffBoy]

Oh.......!!!

You're probably better off getting a onboard GPU solution and a decent CPU as Rcadey has got...... if i was doing this again, thats what i'd do!!

Well it looks like I will be upgrading my "old" PC so what do you think would be minimum Dual Core 939 Socket AMD that would be ok for Blu-Ray Discs and HD rips too without a HD 2xxx card?

I mentioned in an earlier post:

If needed I could upgrade my CPU to an AMD Athlon 64 X2 3600+ (2GHz) Socket 939 512KB L2 Cache OEM Processor for £30 ish...

...would this suffice? (I would then leave my older Radeon 9xxx (I cant remember exactly) card in the PC for vga duties...).

 

[Zarch]

Oh.......!!!



Well it looks like I will be upgrading my "old" PC so what do you think would be minimum Dual Core 939 Socket AMD that would be ok for Blu-Ray Discs and HD rips too without a HD 2xxx card?

I mentioned in an earlier post:



...would this suffice? (I would then leave my older Radeon 9xxx (I cant remember exactly) card in the PC for vga duties...).

Biffa,

I think you're need to do some research and make your own decision on that. If you want to play back 1080p stuff i'm not 100% certain it would cut it...... shouldn't be a problem for 720p though.

look at this chart.

http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=882&model2=937&chart=431

it shows the 3600 in comparison with the core2duo E4300. I have the E4400 and this gets to around 70% CPU when playing back 1080p. (so expect a tad higher on ther e4300)

So if the 3600 encodes that file in 183 secs and the E4300 in 157seconds.

That makes the 3600 having 85% peformance of the e4300. so add an extra 15% of the 70% makes it 80%...... so that SHOULD be ok.

If my maths adds up!?!?!

 

[BiffBoy]

Thanks I will check out that link. If the worst came to the worst and I upgraded the CPU (which I would do anyway so no great shakes if it's not up to the 720p task on it's own), which AGP card would I add at a reasonable cost that WOULD Hardware Accelerate Blu-Ray Discs and HD rips.

BTW, what I say I will only need 720p that is what I will be outputting either BRDiscs or HD rips to my LCD screen in. I do understand that some HD rips are 1080p, if this makes a difference in the CPU usage that I will be trying to play a 1080p rip and outputting at 720p?

But mostly I guess I will just play Blur-Ray Discs and 720p ripped HD files, outputting at 720p.