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HPCD-encoded DVI -> VGA can be done (it seems!)

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by andyatkins, Dec 13, 2004.

  1. andyatkins

    andyatkins
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    Trawling through the AVS Forum I came across this quote from a lady @ Digital Connections - the manufacturers of the DC-DA1 converter:-

    "DVI/HDCP>Analog DOES work. I watch a Samsung DVI player at 720p on my PC monitor, unfortunately, it's more than $200."

    Ok so it's $200 - cheaper than buying a replacment Plasma once Sky start HD services.

    I have also mailed Dtronics direct asking them to confirm 1. It doesn't switch off when it detects HDCP-encoding & 2. IT works @ 50Hz.

    What are the odds they come back saying yes it still works when detecting HDCP but no it only outputs 60Hz - oh the irony!
     
  2. 3ill

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    Any update on this?
     
  3. grahamtriggs

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    For for hundredth time...

    No one has ever debated that this is technically possible - in fact, it's technically fairly straightforward.

    It is also of dubious legality - noting such laws as the American DMCA, and there exists European equivalents. That isn't a concern if you already own one, but don't be surprised to see the major studios trying to shut down any manufacturer of such a device.

    And the device that is on sale in the US almost certainly doesn't handle 50hz signals, which would make it about as much use for the European market as Panasonic's digital input boards.
     
  4. DaveCheltenham

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    graham - I understand what you say about the copyright holders wanting to protect their HDTV content: I am all for it but experience shows that if this is not reasonably done and allowing people to show HDCP content on their existing equipment in the highest possible quality, a market for devices that do will emerge, come what may.

    Think of the region coding on DVDs which stopped the playing of legitimately purchased other region DVDs. This in turn spawned the illegal removing of all protection/encryption.

    The right policy at the start will kill the market for such HDCP devices which remove the copy protection. Previous illegal downloading of MP3s and now the emerging market for legal ones must be another lesson.
     
  5. grahamtriggs

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    Congratulations, you have just defeated your own argument with that last statement.

    Yes, there is a market for legal downloading of MP3s. It exists *solely* because those MP3s are tagged with digital rights management (copy protection). No legal market exists for removing DRM from purchased MP3s, and the recording industry can and *has* actively moved against anyone attempting to offer such a facility.

    The MPAA and DVD CCA moved against the coders/distributors of DeCSS.

    And whilst it is still perfectly possible to buy multi-region DVD players, and obtain region X discs, the industry has certainly been known to move against companies importing DVDs.

    Certainly a legal market will exist for viewing HD content, and that legal market is based around having a digital connection protected by HDCP. Any device that does away with HDCP is likely to incur the wrath of the industry - but it is by no means certain what the result will be.

    As I have acknowledged all along, there will be people interested in owning such devices for 'fair use'. And there may be people willing to supply them. But it *does* fall in area of dubious legallity. As such, you have to accept that if such devices do exist in the future, then it is a *bonus* - you should *not* expect that such devices must exist in the future, just because there are people that will want them.
     
  6. DaveCheltenham

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    Absolutely to the contrary Graham. The illegal market for downloads arose partly because the record industry was slow to see the light and provide a legitimate source.

    "And whilst it is still perfectly possible to buy multi-region DVD players, and obtain region X discs, the industry has certainly been known to move against companies importing DVDs."

    You must be joking to think this was a serious attempt. Most player manufactures provide a means of multi region playing either through the front or back doors. Let’s face it, region coding is now only a token.

    "As such, you have to accept that if such devices do exist in the future, then it is a *bonus* - you should *not* expect that such devices must exist in the future, just because there are people that will want them."

    Sorry Graham but I have been round a long time and am a realist. We live in a world of demand and supply. I just hope is that for fair use, there is a legitimate source.
     
  7. Ekko Star

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    I have a DVI enable graphics card, currently am using a DVI> VGA analogue adaptor (that came with card) to keep my TFT working until I pick up a DVI cable tomorrow.

    It's a diddy little adaptor, cost is about a tenner ?

    So can they do it, will they do it, will it be fairly cheap ? Go figure ?

    This is an enthusiasts forum and it comes as no surprise that enthusiasts will source what they need and it'll become available. If you can encrypt it, you can decrypt it.

    Macrovision, DeCCS are all still in place but still there is perfectly legal software about that can rip this off DVD's. Grey area ? Not really, depends what your motives are I suppose ? Same argument was made about PAL Progressive protocol, which came and went.
     
  8. grahamtriggs

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    I won't entirely disagree with that, but even if the legal market had existed first, an illegal one would have grown around the P2P services anyway.

    But that isn't the point - what I'm saying is that the record companies would not be offering legitimate downloads without copy protection. If copy protection did not exist, neither would the legal market.

    Region coding is the least of the movie industry's worries. Buy region 1 or region 2, the movie studios are still getting paid. It's only really there for release schedule / cinema reasons, and then they only need it to provide an incentive for most of the market to stick with their own regions.

    If you think that the movie industry will just happily ignore such devices, then you are *not* a realist. Do you not listen to what I'm saying? I quite accept that their will be demand, and that it may encourage someone to supply such a device. But if it does happen, it's entirely possible that there will be an attempt to shut them down.
     
  9. grahamtriggs

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    You are talking about something different. DVI comes in three flavours:

    DVI-D - digital only
    DVI-A - analog only
    DVI-I - both analog and digital

    On a PC, you almost certainly have a DVI-I connection. The adaptor that you bought simply takes the analog part of a DVI-I or DVI-A connection, and wire it into a standard VGA connector (the format of the signals is the same - it's just that the connector is physically different).

    For HD content (or existing DVD players), the DVI output is digital only. Not only that, the digital signal is encrypted with HDCP. There is no analog signal on those connectors, and even if there was, it would not pass HD content.

    So the tiny DVI -> VGA adaptor that you bought would not work for HD players/content.

    THAT IS NOT AND NEVER HAS BEEN IN QUESTION. Have you got that now? Of course it is POSSIBLE. But will the movie industry ALLOW it? That is a very different, and very pertinent question.

    Software exists, but that doesn't make it legal. Titles are dropping off the market all the time because they are illegal.

    Sorry, but you are being ignorant and arrogant to say that these devices MUST exist, because you are in position that you will need one - or need to change display - before upgrading your source. I am NOT saying that they won't exist... I'm simply saying that you can't rely on them existing.
     
  10. Ekko Star

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    ...meaning of arrogance is when you expect others to listen and to think just like you....and talk to them so... :smashin:
     
  11. grahamtriggs

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    But then I accept that there is a market for a device that removes HDCP / converts HD to analog. I accept that somebody may try to launch/market such a device for the European market.

    I even accept that there are a number of good plasmas on the market. And I never tell anyone to buy a particular model of plasma - only ever state what their options are for the requirements that they've stated, and give advice as to where they can get demos / find the best prices.

    So your attempt to turn that around on me is rather weak.
     
  12. Ekko Star

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    ...you need to stop listening & talking to your "invisible friend" :rolleyes:

    Read the title of the thread....and you will see no one is asking you to "accept" anything.
     
  13. grahamtriggs

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    The title of the thread is that it an analog conversion can be done - which we've all known, all along.

    But we shouldn't be giving the impression to forum newcomers / novices / people looking to buy a plasma *now* the impression that they can go out and buy whatever screen they want, safe in the knowledge that any potential compatability problem they may face in the future *will* be solved by a cheap little box that *will* be on sale.

    That's the impression that the title of this thread gives. That is the impression that your comments give. And if the legal argument isn't presented - and the innaccuracies in the replies not countered - there'll be a number of people making their decisions for the wrong reasons, and possibly being very unhappy in a couple of years time.
     
  14. Ekko Star

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    ...is of course the reason why he felt the need to post this thread ?

    Graham you've had far too much turkey :clown:
     
  15. grahamtriggs

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    The need to post in this thread is very clearly explained.

    But, of course I fell foul of the agenda of this forum didn't I - by making any kind of statement that could possibly lead anybody to conclude that purchasing a Panasonic plasma *now* may not actually be the right choice for them.
     
  16. Todda

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    grahamtriggs

    Do you come to this forum simply to argue with people? These forums are here to advise people but you seem to prefer to force your argument while being as rude as possible.
     
  17. Ekko Star

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    You are certainly sounding a bit *fowl* no doubt :laugh: seemingly obsessed to bring some sort of LG vs Panasonic dimension into almost every thread as if it's some sort of personal crusade ( are you an LG salesman ?) Or of course a crusade that you take personally ? I'll leave it at that for you to reconcile with yourself and your "invisible friend" :)
     
  18. grahamtriggs

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    Simple - take a look at my full posting history. I've given plenty of practical advice to people that have the same plasma as me (bit hard to give practical advice on something I don't own!). I've also given a lot of even-handed advice about what is available that fulfils peoples requirements, and where to get demos. And even to ask people to question what is really important to them, when their requirements are too restrictive.

    Compare that to the posts where someone seeking advice posts a list of requirements / concerns and they are *completely ignored*, for the usual suspects to be trotted out, possibly giving a false impression that they meet the requirements listed.

    Or where the impression is given that adaptors *will* exist because there are so many people in the same boat it *must* - when that isn't the whole story.

    Or where the impression is given that no worthwhile HD products / content will be available for at least 5 years as a matter of fact, not the opinion that it really is.

    Or where prices quoted for products fail to take into account - or even mention the need to buy - the additional accessories necessary to make a usable setup?

    I don't want to have an argument with anyone, but I'm not going to see the above go unchallenged, because as it stands it does not constitute good advice.
     
  19. grahamtriggs

    grahamtriggs
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    And where do I state anything about LG in this thread (this post excepted)?

    There wouldn't even have been any mention of Panasonic either, until you decided that it wasn't suitable to have a balanced point of view in this thread.
     
  20. Joe Fernand

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    Hello all

    Just 'skimmed' the 'debate'!

    I wonder if the DVI2VGA adapter that worked at 720P(60) with the Samsung player still works now that Samsung have implemented HDCP on their DVI equipped players!

    You'll also find that soon enough Graphics cards for PC's will be HDCP compliant - the movie boys will insist on this as HD DVD, Blu-ray and or any other HD formats go mass market.

    Then again I'm equally as sure that many 'enterprising' folk will try to circumvent HDCP - though Hollywood does seem to be getting tougher on folk who try.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  21. MAW

    MAW
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    Well I'm sufficiently interested in this to try one, so it's on order. Anyone who wants to know the answer can email me so we can avoid having another stupid pointless debate involving Graham Triggs.
     
  22. Ekko Star

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    The only impression that ever comes across from you is a *bad* one. You're arguing with yourself and the only opinion that matters is your own. You can't present any kind of balanced comment without inferring to a one track mono-sounding beef about LG v Panasonic. Not least of all you believe there's some kind of secret "agenda" on these forums like you're some kind of paranoid nutter.

    Ok so you bought an LG and you've been long wishing you had spent the rest and got a Panny instead. Vent your frustrations on tweaking and calibrating your panel as you have been until you're satisfied. Do an LG (Let Go) Be happy and get over it :clown:
     
  23. MAW

    MAW
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    Graham, this is quite the most absurd thing you have ever posted! As the most consistent poster of utter rubbish on the entire forum, how the hell would you know?
     
  24. Stuart Wright

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    It's obvious that the argument in this thread has had more than one party involved. But you are certainly one of the two main parties who have escalated it beyond pleasantness with the above as an example. You didn't use the worst language but your tone and insults above can't be ignored.
    I'm imposing a 3 day ban in the hope that though you might think someone is being ignorant and arrogant, you don't say so in future.
     
  25. The Nightfly

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    Stuart,

    I notice that Graham does tend to end up in the middle of a few arguments around here but by and large his responses are moderate in tone so I'm rather surprised by your action. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of these arguments Graham does stand his ground is prepared to back up his opinion with reasoned argument and without stooping to insults.

    I'm sure you must be aware of this to some degree as I'm sure the quotes you've found mustn't have been easy to come by and read in context are actually quite mild by any standard.

    Allan
     
  26. rscott4563

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    Having read most of Grahams posts over the last few days I would have to agree with general concensous that he speaks mostly cr%p but I don't see how that can be grounds for a ban...

    He has very rarely stretched toabusinve language, unkike others, and although obviously carrying his own ajdenda around (we could probably include a number of Mods in there) he seems fairly harmless. I'd say let him back in the forum just in the feeling of good willl of the New Year....

    Cheers

    Ryan
     
  27. rscott4563

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    Sorry bit drunk, bu arn't we all....

    I think you get the idea of m post... Forgive and forget...

    A new yera and a new startt after all...

    ;)

    Ryna
     
  28. happyh

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    Graham causes his own problems with his habit of highjacking threads, taking them down his train of thought and making them virtually useless to most readers. And he goes on and on and on and on....

    But he does it politely.
    And mostly articulately.
    And it's a new year.

    So forgive and forget guys. :)
     
  29. ianh64

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    This device may work now, otherwise it would be pointless them selling it, but it could stop working at any time. The moment the studios or whoever decide to add the secret key of this device to the revocation list and you play content with the amended list in the MPEG data stream, be it a DVD, or Sky HD, then the source player or STB will nolonger work with this device and it will be useless.

    Its alot of money for something that may only work for a short period of time, but obviously cheaper than buying a new display device.

    Just as long as people are aware that there is technology in the HDCP protocol to allow decryption devices to be disabled simply by playing a DVD or viewing some other MPEG data stream such as a live broadcast.

    -Ian
     
  30. DaveCheltenham

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    Ian - I think I understand the system and for compliant devices, what you say is absolutely true.

    For non-compliant/illegal ones, would not all codes have to be revoked with the new ones working with a new algorithm/primary key. As I said in a reply to Graham, if fair use is not catered for, it will just spawn such devices. I have a PW5 plasma which is unlikely to get a compliant HDCP interface and would look very hard for an HD one.

    In Digital Connections FAQ, they say "It is important to note that many manufacturers are producing products on the infancy of the format, and proper implementation often takes many tries. This is an inconvenience to the consumer in that like computers, many of their new video devices will require "upgrades", often in the form of firmware to fix or correct improper operation, which can be done via transmission (i.e. cable and satellite) or by a disk upgrade (DVD players)."

    A very interesting situation and thread.
     

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