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HOWTO: Great Dscaler set-up with £40 pb tv-100 saa7310 card

Discussion in 'Desktop & Laptop Computers Forum' started by Rob.Screene, Apr 24, 2003.

  1. Rob.Screene

    Rob.Screene
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    Quick set-up of Dscaler 4.1.6 and an SAA7130 capture card (pb tv-100/lifeview 2000)
    It seems to be the avforums our bargain performance card of the moment, needed to watch TV, games consoles or Laserdiscs via the HTPC without a digital freeware tv card or expensive holo3d alternative at about 15x the price.

    This is a great capture card and it works very, very well with Dscaler, with the several users we have with this card on this forum, we should be able to get it working really nicely. I thought it would be a good idea for a reference thread on the two together as I think it's as much a no-brainer as a Radeon for HTPC graphics at the moment.

    Thanks again to John Adcock, Tom Barry, Atsuhsi Nakagawa and the rest of the great Dscaler team for some wonderful software, surpassing anything the manufacturers can even seem to dream of!

    Note: Remember 4.1.6 is an alpha software release from dscaler.org, so it may crash or work oddly when changing some settings. If it does, I just close it, reboot and try again. It doesn’t happen often and these settings will probably be done one, tweeked for an hour and left forever! Once set-up I have found it very, very reliable, just don’t touch the Source menu!

    Step 1. I like to set the Pixel Width to it’s max at 768 as it smoothes some of the pixilation that I notice at the what I think is the default of 720.
    [aw stuffit!, I've got loads of screen grabs and they don't work too well for me here, so I've uploaded a .htm file] [huge snip!]
    Hop to http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rob.screene/Dscaler saa713x/Dscaler Saa7134 lifeview 2000 pc tv-100.htm for the 14 steps to HTPC happiness!

    John, if I've made any silly mistakes or you can shed some more light on the saa713x with Dscaler, I'm sure we'd all benefit.

    That’s it. I’m just learning the latest Dscaler alpha release and it’s SAA7130 driver, so any comments, experiences or suggestions appreciated.

    regards,
    Rob.
     
  2. JohnAd

    JohnAd
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    Rob

    I'll take a proper look at your site later, it requires VML which I haven't got at work so I can't see any of the pictures at the mo.

    Anyway looking at the text it all looks good. I've never used a SAA7130 card but I've a couple of comments so far:

    720 pixel width should give you the best picture with a "normal" digital source, but you should see black bars at the sides, if those are missing then you should try 704 on PAL stuff.

    MoComp2 is a completely new method I've been playing around with. It's not really motion compensating but it does have edge based stuff. It's based on an academic paper on deinterlacing and seems pretty good although there are some shimmers I need to try and resolve. It should be pretty fast and nowhere near as processor intensive as TomsMoComp.

    Atsuhsi Nakagawa is the guy who did the SAA7130 support and you should probably give him a special mention.

    Film detection on PAL material still sucks but I'm working on some improvements which should be much better if still not perfect.

    I should probably go and get one of these cards though...

    John
     
  3. theritz

    theritz
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    Rob,

    While I don't have this card (not available thru PC World in Irl - little trip North in the offing to pick one up !!) you post is really helpful - the comments go a good distnce to explaining some of the stuff that's been puzzling. Thanks !! :smashin:


    John,

    You must have heard it 1000 times, but its still a stonking program ! :clap:


    See ya,

    Sean G.
     
  4. Jagsta

    Jagsta
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    Rob,

    Thanks for the site, great help to a Dscaler newbie like myself. Do you have any opinion on getting the Flyvideo 3000 instead of the 2000/PB tv100? I think it has the 7134 instead of the 7130 chip, not sure if it warrants the extra expense though.

    Also, I assume the 7130 has svideo in, not composite via svideo like the hauppauge WinTV card I have at the moment? Is that right?

    Thanks,
    Jag
     
  5. Loafer316

    Loafer316
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    Jagsta it does both...svideo and composite via s-video (which is what i'm using at the moment) plus the usual composite in.

    Thxs Rob.Screene for all this info! :smashin:
     
  6. Jagsta

    Jagsta
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    Thanks Loafer.

    I guess I'll have to use a transcoder to convert my RGB scart outputs to Svideo if I don't want them to end up as composite?

    Jag
     
  7. Rob.Screene

    Rob.Screene
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    [updated page a little and filtered office tags, so should be a bit more compatible]

    From what I've read about transcoders, I'd stick with S-Video outputs if you have them on your equipment, or plumb for a holo3dgraph card now, or later, as this'll take a component input and apparently the prices are dropping because the new holo3d card is announced.

    VML? I wrote it in Word XP. Looking at the html, gosh it's put some complex stuff in there! I'll look to simplify the html and add the Atsuhsi Nakagawa mention.

    Jagsta,
    I've only seen a LifeView 3000, but can confirm the pb tv-100, I think it may support nicam stereo in the tuner when doing analog terrestrial reception, there's a chart on the lifeview site.

    I don't use it for terrestrial analog, only video line sources, plus I route the sound for each device straight in to my AV amp. I also route the S-Video signals through the amp, then the S-Video monitor output in to the pb tv-100, giving me the amp's on-screen graphics for mode and amp set-up. Can't see any degredation that bothers me.

    Perhaps I will when we've got some really tuned settings together though!

    From what John said and a comment in the past about the saa713x internally sampling at something like 750 pixel width, I think there's some more detail to be gained from tweeking that for a start, perhaps using the custom option or the advanced SAA713x page?

    cheers,
    Rob.
     
  8. Jagsta

    Jagsta
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    Thanks for the info Rob.

    All my external kit has only scart outputs (RGB or composite) so at the minute i'm stuck with composite via svideo. In the future i'm looking to get a JS technology Scart to Svideo converter so I get an actual svideo signal into the Flyvideo 2000/3000 card. This is the only way I can see I'll be able to obtain a non-composite input from my STB or external DVD player.

    On the other hand, I may well be better off buying an internal DVD drive and then settling for composite out of the STB, since the image quality from the STB is none too good anyway. Hmmm decisions decisions, as usual I think i'll have to suck it and see and find out which I prefer.

    Jag
     
  9. Jagsta

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    Just spotted the Flyvideo 3000 (SA7134) card on www.gemsoft-pcs.co.uk for £35 + £4 carriage. That has to be a bargain - cheaper than the PB tv100 based on the 7130 chip!

    I'll let you know how I get on with them, might be a fly by night operation.
     
  10. owain_thomas

    owain_thomas
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    I managed to get my PB tv 100 for £29.99 from my local PC world, what does the 7134 add?

    Owain
     
  11. Jagsta

    Jagsta
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    Looking at the Data sheets for the two chipsets, there isn't any difference other than the nicam decoding and audio processing. I read on avsforum.com that the 7134 had a 9 bit ADC, but according to the data sheets they both do - so no difference to the video processing at all.
     
  12. Rob.Screene

    Rob.Screene
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    I took about 50 screenshots (L key!) from a static X-box Halo scene, with different Pixel Widths;
    768,75, 750 (using custom setting under advanced), 720, 640
    Combined with different de-interlacing methods;
    Adaptive (Weave), TomMoComp seearch effort 1, 2,3,4,5, and 6 Strange Bob enabled and disabled, MoComp2 and Greedy, High Motion.

    Will try to look at a few on the pc un-scaled to do immediate a/b compares to see if any are sharper or more detailed for the X-Box source. Then I'll get a life!

    Anyone else tried tuning these settings with this great chip in Dscaler?

    Rob.
     
  13. JohnAd

    JohnAd
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    Rob

    I've checked over the specs and the saa7134 does sample at 720 per line so doing any scaling ought to be bad.

    What’s really the difference between Orbiting and Bouncing?

    Orbiting swirls the picture around within the overscan area. This is to stop a logo or still picture from burning in.
    Bouncing moves letterboxes (or sideboxed) pictures up/down (left/right). This is to help use all the area of the screen as much as possible


    )If a full field deinterlacer routine was to be used (are there any in Dscaler yet?)
    Almost all the methods are full field (except use odd/even lines only)

    John
     
  14. JohnS

    JohnS
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    I went through and checked most of my settings against what Rob posted last night and most were quite similar.

    Pixel width at 768 def produces a better picture than 720 with this card although decreasing to 720 doesn't add black bars to the side as JohnAd said it should?

    The default for the custom setting was 750.

    I wasn't using any of the filters but thought there was a slight improvement after enabling Chroma and copying Robs settings.

    For video deinterlacing I tend to use greedy high motion for football and Tomsmocomp for most else.

    With tomsmocomp I have a search effort of 10 and find the lower the search effort the more swirl I get around close range shots of faces where the whole picture has a lot of movement. (Eastenders uses a lot of these). I cant see much difference with strange bob enabled/disabled?
     
  15. zAndy1

    zAndy1
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    On my filters menu I don't have anything listed under output filters i.e. chroma doesn't appear. What could be the reason for that?

    Cheers,
    Andy.
     
  16. theritz

    theritz
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    Kramer,

    Any chance you'd "sticky" this for a month or two to allow front page discussion - topic close to my heart, don't you know !:smashin:

    (Edit: Rob, I hope you don't mind the request - it's your thread.....:blush: )


    Thanks in advance,

    Sean G.
     
  17. Kramer

    Kramer
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    Just noticed this thread - could be of great benefit to the HCPC community.

    Going to "stick" it for the moment with a view to adding the "best of" to the existing HCPC sticky/FAQ.
     
  18. JohnAd

    JohnAd
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    You need to select beta filters in the setup to get some of the newer ones.

    John
     
  19. zAndy1

    zAndy1
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    Thanks John, I'll give that a try..

    Cheers,
    Andy.
     
  20. mephistopheles

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    I ordered one of the Flyvideo 3000 cards from Gemsoft when I saw Jagsta's post. This morning, to my disappointment, a Sparkle TV/FM Radio/Capture card arrived from Gemsoft. It turned out to have a Conexant BT878 chip.

    I 'phoned and they said to send it back, which I have now done. They also said they hoped to be getting confirmation on stocks of the Lifeview 3000 cards tomorrow (Thursday).
     
  21. Jagsta

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    I've just received mine from Gemsoft today. Was a bit worried after your post mephistopheles but I have received a flyvideo 3000 card from them as ordered. Checked the board and it does indeed have the Philips SAA7134HL chip.
     
  22. mephistopheles

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    This is going off topic, really, but.....

    I just spoke to Gemsoft. It seems that Jagsta and I ordered the card within a very short time of each other, at which time they had only 1 Flyvideo left, and Jagsta got it (curses!). When they had re-ordered stock, apparently, their supplier had sent Sparkle cards instead of Flyvideos, one of which I got. I don't quite follow how I got the Sparkle before Jagsta got his Flyvideo, but........

    Their supplier did not have any more Flyvideo cards when Gemsoft tried to order on Thursday and may discontinue them for some reason. In the meantime another 5 cards have now been ordered from Gemsoft by forum members, it seems. As it stands at present those orders cannot be filled.

    The guy I spoke to seemed straightforward enough and said he is eager to supply the best product; he will sell FlyVideo 3000s if they are the card to have. He said he would try to find an alternative supplier but if necessary he will try to import them himself. He's going on holiday for a week on Wednesday, however.

    I seem to remember that when the Pixelview XCards were the card to have, someone managed to link a retailer (from whom I got my XCard) with the distributor or the importer. Can we help Gemsoft to find these cards in the same way so that we can all get one?
     
  23. azzo

    azzo
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    Again slightly off topic but relevant.
    I am using a Pinnacle TV Rave which exibits some noise. How does this card compare to the Pinnacle in terms of noise?
    (You can notice noise on static bright screens.)

    Azzo
     
  24. Rob.Screene

    Rob.Screene
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    The pc tv-100 is significantly cleaner than the Pinnacle card. No comparison really, mind you, the designs are years apart.

    Rob.
     
  25. azzo

    azzo
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    Rob, you say "the designs are years apart" This does not necessarily make them better. Can you please give me some specifics why the card is better. I am thinking of changing my PCTV rave if there is a better alternative.
    Many Thanx
    Azzo.
     
  26. Jeff

    Jeff
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    Much cleaner, sharper, better colours, better whites, better blacks. Good enough?
     
  27. Tim Cooper

    Tim Cooper
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    Hi Rob,
    I don't know how i missed this "sticky" but thanks for the info most informative.
    I see your settings are based on the flyvideo 2000 or the pc tv-100 have you tried the flyvideo 3000 yet (if you have where did you get yours from;) ) should i get a pc tv-100 now or wait for the flyvideo 3000?
    I'm using Mark Grants Xcapture card & after a couple of weeks tweaking i have a very clean picture, but it suffers from what i can only describe as colour bleed mainly noticeable on reds & on sky?? funny that because on LD it's hardly noticeable.
    Can you do a piece on Dscaler & aspect ratio's for sky, what do i set my dscaler to?? it's doing my head in, my digibox is set to output 16:9, dscaler aspect ratio set to 16:9 anamorphic the aspect of the screen is set to 1.78:1 HDTV why then do i get black bars top & bottom on some sky channels mainly the health & music channels?
    Fanks.
    Tim.
     
  28. Rob.Screene

    Rob.Screene
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    Hi Tim,
    Not tried a 3000, but I'd bet the two chips have pretty much identical video performance.

    I haven't tried to use widescreen signalling WSS for a good few releases, as I'm only running off a PS2 and X-box mainly these days.

    I use 16:9 aspec ratio or the Auto zoom black bars <mumble> (A button?) aspect ratio for 4:3 material. This then zooms in automatically for any letterboxed stuff, or all the way out to 4:3 for older full-screen programs.

    regards,
    Rob.
     
  29. Mr.D

    Mr.D
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    You can use the chroma filter to correct for chroma delay error on the xcapture works a treat on mine.
     
  30. Mr.D

    Mr.D
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    tsk!

    I got bored so I'm away to buy a pb tv-100 card and see if it improves on the xcapture!

    Any updates on the auto-calibration being problematic on this card?
     

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