Hows everyone finding range in winter?

Discussion in 'Hybrid, PHEV & EV Electric Cars Forum' started by gangzoom, Nov 6, 2017.

  1. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    So now that we are finally seeing single digit temperatures hows everyone finding the impact on range?

    I always have the heating in the car set to 20 degrees, drive at normal traffic speeds, with most trips in urban areas, so not high speed but spends alot of time in traffic.

    My old 24kWh Leaf managed 80 miles in summer winter was 65 miles.

    Current 75kWh Model X, 210 miles in summer, currently seeing 170 miles.

    Hows everyone else getting on? Would be useful to compare all the different EVs.
     
  2. PRESSTOG

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    I have found a 100% Range Increase since the weather turned bad..

    But thats only because I have bought a 41Kw Renault Zoe to run as my Motorway Mule instead of the BMW i3. Which is now being demoted to Weekend fun duties.

    Being serious, the i3 (19kwh 60ah Rex version). In Summer I was getting 90ish on Motorway runs (60mph) and 82 on a general speed run.

    My Daily Run is M1 Jnc 28 North Notts to Central London. 142 Miles. 89 Miles to Rapid Charge at Milton Keynes Coachway then into Central London for the Day and Back in the evening.,

    The i3 Rex in good weather would get into Milton Keynes with 12% Battery Left (My Best ever was 20%). Mid Winter it runs out between Northampton J15 and MK J14 falling onto Rex Backup for between 1 and 10 miles.

    So Basically 100 Best Mid Summer, 90 Autumn 80 Dead Winter (But could push it to the limit as I had the rex backup) Which cut in at 6% Battery so the bottom 6% is unusable in the Rex. (A real bugbear as you cannot override it if you are 1/2 mile from home and hit 6% the rex comes on and you cant stop it and use the last bit of battery)

    The Zoe is rated at 250 Miles NEDC but Real World 190 in Good weather, I was confident I could match or beat that based on my i3 experience.

    So far only had 10 days experience of it, but already found a Warmish day I could bust 200+ miles and bitter cold yesterday rolled into Westminster with 40 miles left (After 142 Mile drive)

    So far its looking like even in the depths of Feb with the ice and snow I should be able to make the 142 miles in without a splash and dash at Milton Keynes or Watford (Which was always my backup). But if I can do without that all year round will be very happy.

    So the Zoe looks like 190-200 in Summer, and 160-170 Autumn, 140-150 Winter. (Will update over the year as the real world figures come in)

    As Far as Battery Degredation Goes, the i3 has done 42k miles in the last 12 months. and had a battery printout at service still showing 100% health and no degredation or issues, which tie in with the mileage not dropping, will be interesting to see how it lasts with less use.

    Plan to do a proper i3 Vs Zoe report in the next few weeks, as I did with the i3 Vs Tesla X. So far the Zoe gives me no driving pleasure its just a tin box for motorway muling but will wait for a few more 1000 before reporting.
     
  3. IronGiant

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    Mrs IG was getting 4.8 miles per kilowatt, this has dropped to 4.4, and this includes the occasional morning when she turns the climate control on remotely running off it's own battery rather than plugging it in the night before. So that's a theoretical 115miles dropping to 105 miles. I expect that will drop further as it gets colder, and thanks to gangzoom for the heads up to keep an eye on it :)

    Edit: although we've had a few ground frosts, it's not dipped below zero yet.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
  4. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    I was reminded because yesterday we happen to end up doing an unplanned visit to some shops 30 miles away, and last year this time such a trip resulted in us limping home with heater off, and crawling along at 50mph on a dual carriageway!!

    Similar trip yesterday and I was doing 'spirited' speeds in the outside lane, heating on full blast, and the car was only charged to 70% at the start of the day :).

    My summary of the Leaf was the fact close to 100 mile of range is probably enough for most people, but 60ish miles in winter than range anxiety becomes a real pain.

    But it looks like things have moved on nicely since 2015, when your talking about 140+ miles of range in winter in something as small/cheap as a Zoe than range anxiety really should be non-issue for most people even in winter.

    We've heading up to Edinburgh mid week along with some detours, had a quick look at the route, in total we'll cover 700 miles in a few days. Will be interesting if taking the EV in colder conditions with no destination charging cause any compromises over a combustion car. Will report back in about a weeks time.
     
  5. jassco

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    Hard to say as my wife uses the Leaf for her commute, but from what I've noticed she's still getting a good range and that's with the temp being as low as 3-5 degrees on a morning and not much higher during the day. She did come home with 60% battery left yesterday, which suggests 100 miles range on almost exclusively dual carriageways. When temps started dropping I reset the average kwh, and it's showing as 3.8, so she's getting somewhere between 3.5 and 4.

    The greatest pleasure though is having a clear windscreen every morning due to pre-heating the car, whereas neighbours are all out scraping their windscreens
     
  6. TW1995

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    I am working on a potential product concept for a university project in relation to electric cars and I would benefit from you answering the survey linked. Thanks a lot for your help.

    Survey temporarily removed by MOD
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2017
  7. IronGiant

    IronGiant
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    Can you contact the sales team with the same info, using this link Contact Us

    using the highlighted option:

    [​IMG]
    They will decide whether it is non-commercial and hence, allowed. Thanks.
     
  8. X DSP

    X DSP
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    I can second the observations on the Leaf made by the OP. The best I've ever had out of my 24 kWh 2014 model is 90 miles with 10% / 10 miles remaining (so would have just made 100 give or take). This was on an ideal summer's day with a mixture of A and B roads, probably averaged around 40-50 mph for the trip.

    In winter the heater probably knocks of around 10% and the cooler battery itself the same again if not more. As long as you are prepared for a 20 - 30% reduction and plan accordingly then it's fine. If like me you do the same journey every day well within range (new commute is a sub 50 mile round trip) then there should be no change in your habits as life goes on as normal. :thumbsup:

    In my experience I would suggest that the cold battery has far more impact as I tried it without the heater once and it seems to make little difference to range on a cold day. So crank it up to 20C + and be comfortable :D
     
  9. IronGiant

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    Not seeing it here yet. Less than a 4-5% reduction. Similar to the load on the aircon in the summer.

    The engine pulls 80kW, the heating less than 1kw.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
  10. jassco

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    I did a decent drive yesterday and really noticed the range reduction. Temp was between 4 and 5 degrees, and driving in the dark for half the journey. It was 92 miles round trip with around 2/3s dual carriageway. I did a steady 60 on the way down, then 70 on the way back, and I trickle charged the car using the 3-pin plug for about 90 mins halfway. got home with 15 miles / 11%, so without trickle charging or doing 60 I'd have struggled the full distance.

    I reset the miles per kwh for the journey back and got 3.7, but on the dual carriageway section I was getting 3.1. That makes it an effective 90mile range doing 70mph, but I wouldn't trust it for more than 85.

    Could be tricky for the mrs if she can't charge at work as that's 81 miles return.
     
  11. DrPhil

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    I find that pishing rain is more of a bother than cold.

    Given that I live in the NW of Ireland we get both on a regular basis...

    I'm a heavy footed driver anyway so in this weather with my driving style I'd probably run as low as 55-60 miles.
     
  12. IronGiant

    IronGiant
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    Winter hit today :)

    Mrs IG left home this morning with 35 miles range and arrived at work with 19 left after a six mile trip. Got back in the car to come home and there was 21 left, did the 5 miles home and there was 14 left.

    No regrets yet :)
     
  13. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    Our current 75D X seems to be behaving better than expected compared to our old 60D X. I'm not sure if its down to Tesla changing software/hardware or just my imagination. Need to wait for some colder days to really see.
     
  14. IronGiant

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    I hate to say you told me so, but it does seem that cars with battery temperature management seem to fare better in cold weather. We dipped our toe into the EV pool with this Leaf and may even keep it for a runabout, but looking forward to what's ahead.
     
  15. PRESSTOG

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    Really Depends on the car.. the BMW i3 uses Resisitive Heating Which is basically just an old fashioned Hot Water heater (Kettle) With a fan blowing the hot air in. In Eco Mode this uses 1.5Kw/h and on Full Comfort Mode 5.5Kw/h max. (Which on a 19Kwh battery is crippling). It does use less energy once warm but even then ticks along at 3.5Kw/h

    The Zoe (and I think the Leaf) use a Heat Pump (Reverse Air Conditioner),, Which can generate a 3Kw heat equivalent of the resistive heater while only using 1Kw of energy. So a lot more effective, And honestly should have been standard in all EVs (BMW do do it in the i3 but at a £750 extra cost), and not available on the Rex Model

    Heating the car is the power killer if you have resistive heating.

    On the downside the further the temperature drops the less effective Heat Pumps are, so the car will never be as toasty as a traditional car without a resisitive backup for those rare -10c days.
     
  16. IronGiant

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    Correct :smashin:
     
  17. LV426

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    Brand new Ioniq:
    I took a local cruise for about 20 miles today with a mix of A road (50 & 60), town (max 30 & 40 but with some stopping etc.) and a few miles of 70+ on the motorway and duals, while I'm experimenting with things like adaptive cruise, eco vs. normal driving mode and so on. A little brisk acceleration but nothing "stupid". Outside 6 - 8 deg C. Climate set to 22C. Radio & GPS not used. The trip counter calculated average was 4.1 miles per unit for this trip - don't know how accurate that is.
     
  18. IronGiant

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    Ours has dropped to 4.3 from 4.8 in the summer (for a Leaf). I expect your 4.1 is probably pretty close to what you are getting.
     
  19. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Been a while since i've posted here but thought i'd add some data from my own travels. In the summer on my business driving round Motorways and up and down the country i would be getting 5.4-5.6 miles per kWh on the iONIQ. Last week i did a trip to Devon driving in the rain, in to the wind, at temps of around 3-4 degrees. Route was along A303 etc up and down hills...no motorway at all. Consumption dropped to 4.4 On way back next day, no rain but as cold..but with tail wind, got it back up to 4.8.

    Not been out and about enough in the Leaf other than a drive in to New Cross in London to see friends and on that trip there appeared to be no change but we were drving stop start london trtaffic most of the time except 10 mile section along A3.
     
  20. IanW1977

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    In July I was getting 5.3 miles per KW. Now it's down to 3.3 miles per KW.

    Yesterday for example I did 10 journeys total of 21.4 miles.
    Constant stop start heavy traffic and short journeys. Journeys all in the dark with the heater on.
     
  21. jassco

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    Yes ours is taking a hammering too. Our indicated range has dropped from about 130 miles (which was quite accurate) in September to about 100 miles now. Snow and ice with outside temp of 0 is killing it, and it'll be a struggle for the wife to do the 80 mile round trip in the winter without charging in between once degredation sets in in a year or two.
     
  22. Alan CD

    Alan CD
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    EV manufacturers and their battery pack and software experts must start to recognise that keeping the batteries within their peak efficiency coefficient temperature range is very important.

    It's like having a petrol engine running cold all the time - very inefficient.
     
  23. gangzoom

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    Tesla packs already have pretty advanced temperature management. The battery heater is able to draw 6KW which is huge amount of juice.

    The result is pretty good though. Did a longish drive today, starting temp was 3 degrees, rain, flowing A/B road traffic.

    I reset the trip meter when the battery regen limit disappeared - so when battery up to decent temperature.

    Once up to temp energy consumption was only 5-10% worse than summer. Which really isn't that bad comapared my old Leaf that lost over 30% range when temp dropped!!

    [​IMG]
     
  24. IronGiant

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    I don't know if they've improved things but we haven't seen such a severe drop yet. It was 4dgC and we had 72 miles range today, compared with low 80s in the summer. turning the heating off was only offering us an extra couple of miles. We do have Climate control set at 19 deg C though :)
     
  25. gangzoom

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    72 miles of range in a 24kWh Leaf in temp below 5 is something I never managed to achieve in real world driving, even with heating off!!

    I would be very cautious about trusting the range meter on the Leaf (or any EV) in current weather conditions, most EV have very poor range predictors that cannot take into account climate conditions. A much much more reliable method is to watch your consumption and than you can work out for your self range based on battery size.

    Been stuck at the side of the road waiting for tow isn't fun at best of times, especially when it's dark/cold!!.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  26. IronGiant

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    Based on actual usage over the 36 mile trip the actual range when we set off should have been 69.
     
  27. LV426

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    I suspect the range calc in the Ioniq is a dynamic calculation based on (recent?) past averages. It's certainly getting seemingly more accurate (based on adding remaining range to trip counter at the end vs. the range at the beginning. Yesterday's ~40 miles mostly motorway (with some slow running) worked out bang on, on that basis.
     
  28. Frostytouch

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    Does your Ioniq have high beam assist out of interest?

    Lots of tech on the base car, but this is something that would be really useful.

    Range wise, seeing about a 10 to 15% drop with the low temps.
     
  29. LV426

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    I don't believe so. Adaptive cruise, lane keep assist, yes. Auto-dipping - not that I know about. Not seen it in the book, not seen it in publicity, but not had chance to see for myself. I'm assuming not.
     
  30. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    Apparently going to hit nearly -9 in Leicestershre today!! Add in the snow/ICE/traffic hope everyone is prepared.

    I don't expect more than 100 milea range from the Tesla today, but equally trying to do 100 miles today would probably be about 4-5hrs worth of driving!!! Luckily my commute is sub 10 miles:).

    [​IMG]
     

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