Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by buns, Jul 1, 2003.
shame it wasnt a storm until I looked at velodyne.....
For a AV system, set the subwoofer to max (160hz?) and set the processor subwoofer xover at ~80hz. Set Storm volume to about 50% or higher, and use the processor remote control sub channel adjustment to get right. By ear, SPL meter and bass heavy DVD's.
I have a Rel Storm.
so setting crossover is a processor affair...... ok thats why i havent done it, i havent got the choice.
so basically im almost on the right track, just set the coarse and fine settings right up and tune as previously.
Since you have a storm..... how happy are you with it for AV? I keep hearing how home cinema bass can be every bit as good as cineplex...... but i only really get bass which is a touch uncontrolled and doesnt really sound like it is vibrating my guts as the big cinema does. So do you get the same feeling about the storm, or does your lex have you feeling much better about things?
There's actually a very good simple setup guide on REL's website which may be worth a look.
Replacing the Denon with the Lex certainly helped, the bass channel seems more integrated now. Also the subwoofer seems to be doing more on Pro-Logic mixes (wheras before on the Denon the sub didn't do much on Pro-Logic) The subwoofer peak limit feature on the MC-1 (also a feature on the Tag) has stopped any chance of bottoming out (easily done with Toy Story 2 logo intro, T2 Ultimate, Titan AE)
I would say the Storm is a good sub, but hasn't got the sheer output needed in a larger room, for a high output AV system, or people who want it loud. I guess adding a few buttkickers would help.
I have set my system to 85dB (with the MC-1 test tone) I'll report back later what my listening volume is, and how loud the master volume has to be before subwoofer starts giving up (I'll disable sub peak limiter to do this)
If you decide to keep your Storm, I would recommend finding a processor with the sub peak limiter. You don't realise how good this is unless you have it.
I can ramp up the volume (all poweramps off) to +10dB on the master volume on T2 shotgun sounds and the Storm driver doesn't bottom out. If I did this with the Denon processor the driver would have been cooked.
The Storm does go pretty low, you can feel the door at the other end of the house vibrate.. try setting the crossover to max on processor and subwoofer.. this'll give you the boy racer type bass- boomy!
OK thanks guys......
I have to admit im really a bit tempted to save for a cht15 from eric......
I'll have to have a chat with him and get his opinions..... i have a feeling im maybe just not getting remotely near the best from my storm
I have a manual for a Storm on disc. If you want to crossover at 80Hz that would need the coarse to be set at 3 and the fine at 4.
If you PM me your email address I will email the manual to you
thanks Ian, pm at you!
Hey guys! Just been having another fiddle...... i have got a bit of increased performance, but still maybe not fantastic. I have just had a go at measuring my room response and the results show perhaps why im not so happy....
I've recently had the benefit of listening to a CHT and Storm side by side, same room, same SPLs and i much preferred the CHT, which, cards on the table, i owned at the time. To me the CHT was just that much tighter, and had a more accurate feel. A 30Hz test tone thru the CHT you felt rather than heard, while the converse was true with the Storm. Thats not saying the Storm is any slouch, my bro uses one, the mark1, and in his room(stone walls) it'll rattle out your fillings.
Well i have a servo 15 on order so im hoping it will make some sort of difference, but i figure i must have some real room issues to deal with!
I would have thought that a Servo 15 would be more difficult to position in a room than a Storm. You may need to start researching the BFD as well to tame the beast a little
Whoops try again!
Find attached my Rel Storm V1 graph, processor @ 80hz, subwoofer to max.
Yes, i was going to add my CHT dBvFreq figures are somewhere on this forum and you'll see they're on a par with your storm...bloody rooms! Typically when i set up the CHT over at Puddleducks it sounded better in his room than it ever had in mine...despite just rough and ready spl setting.
im way ahead of you! i have been through all sorts of various dsp's which are capable...... some amazing little machines, computer controlled with dozens of crossover options and just about anything you could want, but alas i reckoned $400 was a tad much when i only want EQ.
Thats a very nice chart compared to mine! Im surprised at your lack of low freq. roll off...... i got very little below 30Hz. Your variation is also alot less than mine..... maybe ive just got a bad location..... im going to have a fiddle with a few spots which acoustically should be better.
The difficulty is additionally that there is a huge variation simply over the length of my 3 seater sofa! Having played for a couple of hours it is hard to imagine that i can get much better than an evenish response in one location
At what dB level was the average SPL output?- I hope you didn't have it loud, as it can fry the VC.
Yeah my reponse looks pretty good, a couple of peaks and troughs buy overall fairly flat (Ian's SVS chart seems very hilly)
I set at 80.... i reckoned below reference should be ok. Whats VC?
Is your storm just running natural or have you got it BFD'd? Im really miffed that you get low freq and i dont!
How about your positional dependence..... i couldnt have moved more than 30 cm before i had totally different results....
Straight out the MC-1 subwoofer output, not BFG'd (Big Friendly Giant?)
SPL meter pointing up, at the same place on each test. Also made sure no ambient noise- I tested when the laptop fan was off, shut the windows so traffic noise didn't effect results, no-one else in the house walking around, etc.
I've just changed the settings from all small 80hz, subwoofer 80hz- to small 40hz for front three (40hz L/R , 55hz C LF corner) and 40hz roll-off for the subwoofer, basically just comparing them. I'll do another graph for this setting.
Oh room is extension, wooden floor, garage underneath.. subwoofer is on a slab.
Hmmmm well i def have some experimenting to do! I really cant envisage boosting the low frequencies by what i need mind you!
My room is an exceptionally odd shape, there is a bay, sloping rafters, cross beam..... i reall thought i should get a relatively good response!
Well ive been in about every location there is and i still have that basic structure..... enormous peak around 40Hz and then an area of dips following..... i presume this is a feature of my room and not the sub?
I'd go with the room over the sub.
Every sub i've tried in my room has a peak at 50Hz irrespective of its design or where it's positioned. The size of the peak seems to be affected by messing around with position, but around +8dB is still about the best i've managed.
Strange thing is that Nathan is getting something totally different! At 50 hz he is getting a dip with his peak being at a far higher frequency with a tail of towards 160 Hz. In fact if i didnt know Nathan to be a sensible bloke, id say he had his scale reversed!
What sort of tolerance should i be trying to achieve? 2db? 5db?
I assume that although the 50hz peak may be room related, the lack of response at lower freq is a function of the sub?
Regarding how I did the test tones:- just to make sure I did the prodedure correctly..
Connected USB Soundbox to laptop/optical input on MC-1
Played back the MP3's with Winamp, Windows (master, wave) and Winamp to 100%.
Set MC-1 to 2ch stereo, with subwoofer on.
All speakers to small 80hz, subwoofer roll-off to 80hz.
Left the MC-1 at the same volume throught the whole test.
Set the SPL meter to C weighting, slow, at the listening position.
Played back 16,18,20,22,25,28,31.5,36,40,45,50,56,63,71,80,89,100
111,125,142.5,160 tones- writing down the number on the SPL meter in the "RAW SPL" column, next to each tone.
Correct way of doing it?
Roll of is why your higher freqs are low.... silly me!
Do you have your mains on or off?
Sounds about right..... the only difference is that i am running a test cd dirctly into my sub. I Have managed to find a location where my peak is about 7db above the average and from that first peak at about 50 Hz i am within 6db up to 160 Hz. Certainly alot improved on the initial!
I am still miffed about low frequency...... im getting very little below 30 Hz and that is consistent through my room.
What happens to the sounds as it goes into the MC1? Does it have any THX processing or anything done on it that might boost your lows?
All four stereo (jammy git!) poweramps are off. The only thing on is the subwoofer.
No- THX or Logic 7 modes switched off. Pressed the 2 channel button on the remote.
Don't know the details the MC-1's stereo processing. All this trouble is putting me off getting a BFD. Basically I just want to press a button, and it'll sort out the sub channel automatically.
Your response doesnt look although the BFD is going to do much good. Your biggest feature is that dip, other than that your response is about as good as ive seen from various sources at avs. Unfortunately a dip is supposed to be very tough to correct and with such a big dip, you would put an enormous strain on the storm amp in boosting it. Of course the up side is that the dip is not meant to be anywhere near as audible as a peak would be.... You may not notice much of a difference even if you did get equalised. Besides, im jealous as hell about your being flat to 16! Even the big subs rarely claim that!
Unfortunately there is no easy way to do this. If we had the ability to build rooms from scratch, we would probably not need any equalising, but few of us have that! The nicest system i have seen is the QSC procucts..... in the included software i think you simply manipulate your respose by clicking and dragging with the mouse
Its all a case of keep trying i reckon, though im sure in a non designed room there is a limit to how flat you can hope. Unless you are lucky!!!
Same sub...different room acoustics.
If you can find the BFD thread i think the ideal response is the so call "house curve"...which, from recollection, slopes gradually from 20 or so Hz up to 120Hz
I'm not sure the roll off below 30Hz would be sub related. My CHT quoted at 23Hz +/- 3dB also rolled off more dramatically below 30Hz than i'd have liked, while others with this sub had no such problems. As i mentioned before, i recently sold the CHT, and set it up at Puddleducks, my immediate impression at the start of FOTR was much more was happening below 30Hz.
Looking at bun's response, it actually resembled my Storm3 response when I still had it.
Resemblence in the form of very little bass (and alot of port noise) at 25hz and below. That 40+hz peak is almost certainly room mode (let me guess, your room height is about 2.6-2.8m?), and resonably flat 60hz to about 80hz.
However, I feel nathan's plot goes down a bit too low enough to be suspicious. The Storm3's characteristics mention it goes down to 18hz at -6dB point. Nathan, maybe you might want to check again.
This was my Storm's FR:
I'm pretty sure anything below 22hz was measuring port noise.
Jag77...is the room mode 1/3 of the wavelength?
Just interested as i have a similar problem at 50Hz...and had been looking around for a dimension close to 1.6m, thinking, incorrectly it would seem, it was 1/4 waves that were the problem....must drag out the old physics text books.
I'll have a dig for the BFD thread and see the sort of curves.
I do hope i have something sub related the matter at low freqs, otherwise im in some trouble!
My room is 167 x 160 x 99 inches...... but as i mentioned, the room height varies as do the other dimensions resultant of alcoves and such. Can the speed of sound be assumed frequency independent within our range? Quickly that would give me fundamental room frequencies of 65 Hz, 41 Hz and 39 Hz..... and of course harmonics of those..... that matches very well to what im observing. I will try and do some plotting and get more complex results. The fundamental mode will have a wavelength twice that of your dimension.
Do we know of any programs that will calculate me a room response and save my having to think about it?
This is all very interesting, im enjoying this
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