Question How to Maximise Stereo Quality. Arcam AVR20 or 30 or 20 with Stereo PA

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I’m looking change my setup from the current 6 boxes for AV & music down to ideally 1 box or maybe 2.

My Naim system is very good for music but my new house is acoustically challenged. Also, I seldom sit down and listen to music critically anymore.

The sound quality of my LX82 is generally fine for AV duties but it is now about 10 years old, does not pass through 4K and does not have the ability to play ATMOS etc. It also lacks ARC.

I want to get a new AVR and think that Arcam will provide the best option for me. In general, they also have a good reputation for their ability to play music.

My question is; if I bought the AVR20 and a stereo power amplifier, would that work out cheaper and better than buying an AVR30 and provide better sound quality. I’m thinking that buying 2 good quality power amplifiers would be a better investment than 7 - 5 of which would not be used with music. I should, in my head, get better music reproduction with this approach.

Or is it more complicated than that and the preamp aspect of the AVR limits the ultimate musicality.

If I was to go down the route of a stereo PA, does anyone have suggestions of suitable options. Without going mad.

I also think using this methodology that I could use Dirac to overcome some of the acoustic challenges I have.

Regards
Huw
 
You might not need power amplifiers. What speakers do you have, or plan to have in the system, and what size room?
 
You might not need power amplifiers. What speakers do you have, or plan to have in the system, and what size room?
The whole room is about 55 feet by 25 feet in total. The ceiling in the ‘living area‘ is about 20 ft high and peeked. The ‘living area‘ is about 30 x 20ft. The stereo speakers are the Focal 1027be. As mentioned, the acoustics are not great.

What I have read indicates that the extra 2k spent on the AVR30 provides better, more musical, amplification than those in the AVR20. The Arcam PA240 costs 2k for just 2 class G amps. Which, to me, indicates that they are probably a better investment for my requirements than the 2k difference between the AVR20 & AVR30, where you are paying an extra 2k for 7 class G amplifiers - of course some of the 2k on the 420 will be on casing etc but it has a PSU driving only 2 amps instead of 7 etc.

Also, by going the AVR20 and 2 power amplifier route, it would allow me to see what I think of the quality of the AVR and then get the stereo amp when I have the cash, if required. I understand there is little difference between the two pre-amplifiers in the AVR20 & AVR30. I’m not sure if this is true though.

I was hoping that someone might have tried this route in the past.

Cheers
Huw
 
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I think that the Processor PA option would end up being more expensive than those outlined above.

Mainly because this is likely to be the last big investment in AV & music, I want to buy new, rather than used.

I don’t think that besides the Arcam, there is much choice, when musicality is important. Possibly Marantz but historically, have found them a bit bland.

I tried an Arcam pre/power (the PA was, I think, the 777) and it was OK but for the price was not worth the investment at the time. Now it would be in the category of too expensive. I also listened to the Classe pre/power and that was amazing but about 15K at the time.

So at this time, I’m ruling out 5 or 7 channel pre/power option. And, to be truthful, I think I would be happy with the AVR20 for surround duties as I’m not unhappy with the LX82. I do have a niggling feeling the depth of scale on the AVR30 would nice though.

I recall comparing my LX82 vs the Arcam pre/power and thud when the drill being used by the Joker at the beginning of Batman (and the whole build up) attaches to the safe, really sticks in my mind. It was so realistic.
 
'As mentioned, the acoustics are not great' - I would start with trying to improve them before you consider any other AV electronics.

Joe
 
This thing is, that for 2 channel music, adding a 2 channel power amp to an AVR isn't really going to help, depending of course, on what power amp you add. But it would have to be a very expensive one to be better than what the Arcam can do itself when only powering 2 channels.

I use a 2 channel DAC with my Arcam AVR550, and have the AVR in stereo direct mode, I find that improves music listening a lot. But the newer Arcam's have a different DAC, and you said that you don't really 'seriously' listen to music any more, so I am not sure if that would be necessary for you.

The Arcam AV40 processor is £3749, if you were to add the IOTA AVXP1, which is a well regarded 7 channel amplifier for £1059, that would be a total outlay of under £5k and should, in theory, provide a better audio experience than the AVR's.
 
'As mentioned, the acoustics are not great' - I would start with trying to improve them before you consider any other AV electronics.

Joe
Hi Joe, a fair point and I have gone as I can to improve acoustics with lots of soft furnishings, rugs, curtains etc and I don't really have anywhere else to go. The AV system I have sounds good when set up but historically, I had much smaller room with carpets etc and the Naim kit sounded good. Now it sound fine but it's not what it was.

The only option left now is to try and tame the remaining acoustic issues with Dirac or similar.
 
This thing is, that for 2 channel music, adding a 2 channel power amp to an AVR isn't really going to help, depending of course, on what power amp you add. But it would have to be a very expensive one to be better than what the Arcam can do itself when only powering 2 channels.

I use a 2 channel DAC with my Arcam AVR550, and have the AVR in stereo direct mode, I find that improves music listening a lot. But the newer Arcam's have a different DAC, and you said that you don't really 'seriously' listen to music any more, so I am not sure if that would be necessary for you.

The Arcam AV40 processor is £3749, if you were to add the IOTA AVXP1, which is a well regarded 7 channel amplifier for £1059, that would be a total outlay of under £5k and should, in theory, provide a better audio experience than the AVR's.
Thanks again for your thoughts. The AV40 is a good option but at the moment would leave me shy of the £s to get the PA. Also, if I was getting a 7 channel PA at a later date, I think I would go with the Arcam 720.

As, from what I have read, the Arcam 420 is Class G and for the reason I outlined earlier, probably going to suit my purposes and produce better musicality than the power amps that come with the stand alone AVR20. I am inclined in that direction but am trying to get some ideas of the musicality I might expect from the different options of AVR20 stand alone vs AVR20 + Stereo amp vs AVR30 stand alone.

Please don't mix up not listening 'seriously' with not wanting a system that sounds good. I'm still critical of bad reproduction. I just don't go looking for issues - which I might have done in the past. When I find a problem, as long as it is not too bad, I'm getting reasonable at turning a blind eye to it.

Regards
Huw
 
They only way you'll know is to buy one and see how it sounds in your home. They do sound good for stereo and if it's not enough, buy a power amp at a later date.
 
They only way you'll know is to buy one and see how it sounds in your home. They do sound good for stereo and if it's not enough, buy a power amp at a later date.
Hi Goatlips, as you say that is my best bet but at the moment that’s not an easy option. arrows g down a few stereo power amplifiers under the 2k mark would be interesting. As would understanding the impact of a high quality stereo power amplifier when the pre amp is an AV amp.
 
I am interested to know why you think adding a stereo power amp to an AVR will improve 2 channel music performance. Are your front mains speakers a lot harder to drive than the centre and surround speakers?
 
I am interested to know why you think adding a stereo power amp to an AVR will improve 2 channel music performance. Are your front mains speakers a lot harder to drive than the centre and surround speakers?
I’m not sure that it will. That said, the AVR30 uses Class G amplifiers all round and that accounts for extra 2k cost over the AVR20. The consensus seems to be that those Class G amps do actually make it a better amp all round, including musically.

I see no reason that having 2Ks worth of Class G stereo amp will not outperform the 2K spent over the 7 power amps in the AVR 30. You generally get what you pay for, even if the returns diminish. I’m keen to know if someone has already tried this approach.

Regards
Huw
 
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AVR20 with a Arcam P49 power amp = 2x 200 watts of class G into 8 ohms or 400 watts into 4 ohms, twice the power of the AVR30 for the same £2k price difference. Sounds the bees knees and you can always carry the power amp on for future upgrades.
 

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Hi Gaz, do Arcam still produce the P49? I couldn’t see it on their website.

Have you used it through an AVR, rather than just from a stereo pre amplifier?

Regards
Huw
 
Hi Gaz, do Arcam still produce the P49? I couldn’t see it on their website.

Have you used it through an AVR, rather than just from a stereo pre amplifier?

Regards
Huw
Hi yes they have now been discontinued but you can still pick them up now again on eBay they originally cost £3250 are going for about 2k now.

I have tried the AVR20 standalone and it's very impressive in stereo but adding the power P49 adds depth to the soundstage and brings the music out. There's the class A 50watts for general listening levels which is so sweet then bags of power in reserve. But if you driving small speakers I would just go with the AVR but a decent pair floirstanding speakers would benefit from the extra headroom.
 
Hi yes they have now been discontinued but you can still pick them up now again on eBay they originally cost £3250 are going for about 2k now.

I have tried the AVR20 standalone and it's very impressive in stereo but adding the power P49 adds depth to the soundstage and brings the music out. There's the class A 50watts for general listening levels which is so sweet then bags of power in reserve. But if you driving small speakers I would just go with the AVR but a decent pair floirstanding speakers would benefit from the extra headroom.
Hi Gaz, thanks for the information. I guess the PA240 is their new stereo PA. That’s £2k new and on the face of it seems similar to the outgoing PA.

Regards
Huw
 
Hi Gaz, thanks for the information. I guess the PA240 is their new stereo PA. That’s £2k new and on the face of it seems similar to the outgoing PA.

Regards
Huw
Yes the PA420 is the replacement for the P49 but at the much reduced price point I'm not sure if it has the same quality components. Other problem is the PA420 is not currently available to mid summer at best.
 
I m considering the PA240 too, surprised not much reviews online, anyone here got it? will be needing it to drive my B&W 702 s2 fronts.

Thanks.
 
The cheapest way to improve stereo performance in an AVR (with pre-outs) setup is to buy a decent integrated stereo amplifier having a processor mode / home theatre bypass option. You use it as a stereo power amplifier in the AVR setup (processor mode), and and by itself in the stereo world.

Sticking to Arcam, that would mean adding and SA20 or SA30, both of which are designed to suit this application.
 
The cheapest way to improve stereo performance in an AVR (with pre-outs) setup is to buy a decent integrated stereo amplifier having a processor mode / home theatre bypass option. You use it as a stereo power amplifier in the AVR setup (processor mode), and and by itself in the stereo world.

Sticking to Arcam, that would mean adding and SA20 or SA30, both of which are designed to suit this application.

Another option..

AV pre amp
and
Stereo analogue pre amp and DAC
or
Stereo digital pre amp with built in DAC
and
Stereo or multi-channel pre amp

That way you don't have multiple power amplifiers idle, you pay for single number of amplifiers.
 
Another option..

AV pre amp
and
Stereo analogue pre amp and DAC
or
Stereo digital pre amp with built in DAC
and
Stereo or multi-channel pre amp

That way you don't have multiple power amplifiers idle, you pay for single number of amplifiers.
But (unless I've read your post wrong) that is an extra "box" - 3 boxes vs the Stereo integrated amp with HT Bypass option with an AVR (which has internal amps) 2 boxes*

*This of course assumes your AVR has the correct number of internal amps/channels for your desired speaker configuration ie 5.1, 7.1 etc. Taking into account that the front speakers would be powered by the stereo integrated freeing up those 2 channels on the AVR.

Eg: My 4500 has 9 channels of internal applications, so can do 5.1.4 out of the box. But can process 11 channels. By adding a stereo integrated amp with HT bypass I can now implement a 7.2.4 setup as 2 of the 11 channels are powered by the stereo amp. The remaining 9 by the Denon.

But it's good to have options for sure!
 

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