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how to make bi polars sound like di polars?

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Speakers' started by majortrip, Jan 19, 2003.

  1. majortrip

    majortrip
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    I was thinking how to make my bi polars sound like di polars can i connect the + off one side speaker to the - then put the speaker back in the box so i got one side in phase and the other out of phase ? will it work like a di -polar ... help would be nice


    ps speaker's are four missions 77ds two at the back and two on the side walls (thats where i'm trying for this di polar effect with out spending loads more money!
     
  2. nathan_silly

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    Some people prefer dipoles over monopoles- I certainly do.

    To convert bipoles into dipoles you need to unscrew the rear-facing drivers and swop the cables- for the treble and mid driver.

    So the front-facing drivers will be left in phase, wheras the back-facing drivers will have reversed phase.
     
  3. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
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    Ian J and Steve.EX - I have deleted your posts and will PM you. Lets start this thread again without the aggression, shall we?
     
  4. alexs2

    alexs2
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    Oh well...since mine got caught in that crossfire,I'll add my 2p's worth again....I wouldn't try to convert these speakers to produce a dipolar effect as they weren't designed with that in mind,and you will probably find the sound dispersion from them gives a poor result when wired in that fashion,with much cancellation etc between the drivers.

    You may also find that you lose sound steering and actually lose the focus of the system when the rears are modified in this fashion...there's also the warranty aspect,if thats a potential problem,if any drive unit damage should occur.
     
  5. nathan_silly

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    Why have the last few posts been removed?
     
  6. alexs2

    alexs2
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    See Spectre's post above....there was a bit of a difference of opinion between 2 people basically.
     
  7. Steve.EX

    Steve.EX
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    For what it is worth and in my genuine experience many people who have heard correctly set-up quality di-poles have indeed expressed a preference towards them.
    My own feelings on this matter are that no matter what the quality of a monopole rear channel speaker given the general insensitivity of the brain as to pin-point positioning of rear effect's placed between speaker positions no matter what the effect the brain simply defines the effect/noise as coming from a box, easily locatable on the wall and as such is only you are aware of rear left/right and pans across the two, this for me ruins the whole effect given that with quality electronics and software and the the brains perception to accurately place sounds between the front 3 speakers the front soundstage can be both diffuse or pin-point.
    I think there is a common confusion to the term diffuse regarding di-ploes, in no way do you lose directionality you simply lose the location of the box, a rocket coming from the rear left still comes from the rear left but not from 3 feet above and 2 feet behind as with a monopole.
    Most quality installs that i have had the pleasure of playing with have used di-poles for A.V and mono-poles for music.
    For anyone considering di-poles the new Kef Q2'a @ £400 are a great start.

    Steve.
     
  8. alexs2

    alexs2
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    Steve will no doubt note that my post in no way ran down the sound obtainable from properly designed and set up dipole speakers,indeed some very good models(Mirage for example)have been very well received in HiFi circles also.

    I was simply pointing out that modifying a speaker to do what it's designer never intended it to do was unlikely to result in an improvement in sound quality,even without the warranty issues.
     
  9. Steve.EX

    Steve.EX
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    Alexs2
    Firstly with the sort of kit you are using i would not presume to tell you how to "suck eggs"
    I would indeed most wholeheartedly agree, a speaker of even the lowest budget origins from a genuine speaker manufacturer will have many design parameters specific to that driver/enclosure that without understanding such specifics will render the speaker somewhat hampered if "customised"

    Indeed i have spent much time with the more esoteric designs from the likes of Mirage/M and K and hopefully within the next week or two the new Kef reference di-poles and have nothing but envy in short.

    Steve.
     
  10. alexs2

    alexs2
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    Good on you,Steve....just didnt want anyone getting the idea that such mods to monopolar speakers may be effective,notwithstanding any improvements that true dipoles may offer :cool:
     
  11. Matt F

    Matt F
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    Aha, I managed to recover the two postings I made on the deleted thread.

    The first is in reply to the suggestion that people may be replacing dipoles with bipoles:

    Some people might be replacing dipoles with monopoles (or "best of both worlds" tripoles) to gain a direct radiating sound but I'd seriously question the sanity of anyone replacing dipoles with bipoles.

    Having owned both bipoles and dipoles (which I still own) I would say that bipoles are a cheaper version of dipoles and that they don't work as well - they both diffuse the sound but the dipole is better at disappearing.

    So, if you have a diffuse sounding pair of dipoles, I can't see why you would want to replace them with an inferior pair of diffuse sounding bipoles - unless you are trying to save money! If want to move from diffuse to direct radiating then you would replace your dipoles with monopoles (or tripoles), not with bipoles.

    A lot of this also comes down to the distance the rear speakers are from the listener - if they are fairly close then, chances are, dipoles will work better. If they are further away then monopoles are supposed to work very well but, as I understand it, you still need to experiment with the direction they fire in e.g across the back wall, down the sides etc. Personally, I'm happy to place my dipoles on the side walls (above, and slightly behind, the listeners head) and to let them do their stuff - they sound stunning.

    We should also remember that THX - who, I think most would agree, know their stuff when it comes to home cinema - have up until now always recommended di-poles (for the THX Ultra certification) for Dolby Digital and DTS. In fact, even THX Ultra 2 recommends dipoles for surrounds but direct radiators for the surround back speakers.

    There is a certain dipole that gets mentioned here from time to time (B&W DS6) which does go back to the (pre-DD/DTS) pro logic only days and that is reflected in its limited frequency range. However, there are others such as KEF's TDM34DS that are fully equipped for DD/DTS - they were, I believe, designed specifically for this and have THX Ultra certification.

    The bottom line from a THX perspective is that if you want to market a THX Ultra 2 approved speaker package then it will have to contain a pair of dipoles.

    As for re-wiring a bipole to turn it into a dipole - give it a go if you like but there may be a little more to it than that.

    Matt.

    ___________________________________________________

    The second was a reply to the post that included Uncle E's take on the subject:

    Yes, we are aware of Eric's view on this matter. THX think something different. It's true of course that THX recommend monopoles for the surround rear channel - their opinion could be that as you have identical information (i.e. one channel) coming through 2 speakers then this will spread the sound around sufficiently to not need dipoles.

    As for THX changing their minds on the need for dipoles for the side speakers, I'd be very surprised - THX Ultra 2 hasn't been around that long - I would suggest that if they were going to change the dipole recommendation then they would have done it when THX Ultra 2 was announced. In any case, I can't see them changing this until THX Ultra 2 is superceded and, even then, why would they change their minds?

    One other thing on the monopoles issue (that I touched on in my previous post), I've just had a look at the M&K S85 user manual (http://www.mksound.com/pdf/user_man...85_s125-man.pdf - page 9) and there are various suggestions regarding what you should do (when using the S85's as rears) in order to create an "enveloping" sound.

    They say that the surround channels should seem to come from all around you rather than directly from the speaker and, to achieve this, you may need to aim them towards the back wall i.e. so that the sound is reflected before it reaches the listener.

    Now, to me, that is as much as admitting that monopoles are not ideal as surround speakers - to get the desired effect you have to aim them somewhere else rather than at the listener AND, to me at least, the desired effect they describe is what dipoles (and bipoles) achieve with a lot less bother.

    Matt.
     
  12. Babylon

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    If it's any help I have just had my first day with my new Kef Q2ds's,the first clip I tried was the bit in Blade were he throws that thing at the biginning and the sound go's around the room,with the Q1's that I had as surrounds before it worked fine, and it also worked fine with the Mission 77ds Bi-poles that I had, but with the Q2's that effect is lost.

    When useing the Q1's it was very easy to pinpoint from what speaker the sound was coming from at any one time,but with the Q2's this is as good as impossible.The problem with Home Cinema is that everyone has there own idea of what it should sound like,and some people like to be able to pinpoint the sound as it fly's around the room,I was one of them,but luckily for me the Q2's are reproducing sounds that I never new were there,and it does sound much much better with the whole room full of sound and not just the corners,So out of the 3 options I have tried,I would have to say that the Di-poles win it for me hands down,and I'm not just saying that because I'v just bought them,I only paid £350 so selling them and getting my money back would be easy.
     
  13. Phil Hinton

    Phil Hinton
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    I will just add that I have owned every type of surround speaker at one time or another. Firstly dipoles are good for a diffuse effect and I liked the Boston THX that I used, but you cannot pinpoint directional effects. I have also used Polk Ls/FX In Bipole mode and these were very good indeed, a diffuse effect but with placement effects you could still localise where the sound should be in the soundfield.
    I am now using M&K 55 Tripoles, and these are the best surrounds i have ever used, it has all the benefits of Bipoles but with that little bit more when you get stereo pans to the rear.
    So I guess i prefere tripoles.
     
  14. uncle eric

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    :confused: :confused:
     
  15. Steve.EX

    Steve.EX
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    Perhaps directionality of the effect and absolute location of the speaker would have been clearer

    Steve
     
  16. nathan_silly

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    Has anyone here owned/demoed the M&K SS-500, Surround 200 Tripole, or Surround 250 Tripole?
     

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