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How to eliminate Sibilance from my system??? (again)

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi Stereo Systems & Separates' started by Dimmy, Feb 21, 2004.

  1. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    Right, this really is driving me up the wall now, there's a HUGE amount of sibilance to the sound of my system, basically rendering all music with vocals in it unlistenable. I've posted on here before where it was suggested that the amp clipping was the problem, but I've come to believe otherwise...

    My system currently consist of:

    Mission 775e speakers
    Denon AVR1803 Amplifier
    Pioneer DV-565A DVD/CD player

    I'm using cheap & nasty JVC interconnects and QED Original Biwire speaker cable.

    I originally suspected that this would be the result of the amplifier clipping, but it's a trait that's exhibited at the lowest of volumes too, so (I think) I can eliminate that as a possiblity.

    I've heard the speakers with (admittedly better) amplification and again the traits weren't exhibited.

    When demoing the DVD player at my local sevenoaks, I couldn't hear any sibilance there, so it doesn't make sense for it to be the player.

    As of Saturday (next), I'll be using a different source for CD playback (Denon DVD2800mkII).

    Anybody got any idea of how to eliminate it?

    Will upgrading the speaker wire/interconnects do the trick?

    It really is preventing me from listening to anything at present.

    TIA

    Dimmy
     
  2. Hawklord

    Hawklord
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    It's always a good idea to have good quality speaker cable and interconnects. I'd personally in your position would get something like qed silver anniversary speaker cable and some half decent QED interconnects. It's got to be worth spending a few quid if it sorts your problem out. What do you mean by "siblance" anyhow?
    I notice you are bi-wiring your speakers have you remembered to remove the connecting plate between the two terminals.
    I'd disconnect everything and start again making sure all cables and interconnects are connected properly and are fully home. If your using very cheap cabling that's not sheilded properly that could lead to coloration of the signal. It sounds to me that it's more likely to be a degraded or faulty connection not allowing a proper signal to get to your speaker drivers.

    sorry if I'm teaching you to suck eggs but it's almost always something obvious that's causing a problem. I had a situation where my amp would cut out at a particular volume level. Scratched my head for ages on that one. It ended up being a short caused by me not ensuring speaker wire wasn't touching a neighbouring terminal :(

    hope you get sorted soon:)
     
  3. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    I thought the same, it just has to be something really simple doesn't it, because I don't have 'Bad' hardware :confused:?

    By 'Sibilance' I mean anything with an 'S' sound or anything residing in the high-ish treble sounds really exagerated and heavily distorted, it sounds really unnatural and hurts my ears. It's JUST ABOUT bearable at th VERY lowest volumes (about -50dB), but at anything close to reference levels it's unlistenable.

    It's really frustrating me as I've tried allsorts to eliminate it and so far nothing's worked :(.
     
  4. Hawklord

    Hawklord
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    Does it manifest through both speakers? if it's both then you can rule out a tweeter problem. I've found it's best to start at the speaker and work your way back through your kit. If it's just one speaker that's causing it then it's down to a problem with the tweeter. If it's both then either the speaker cable is not connected properly at the amp or speaker terminals or is not of suitable quality to transfer a good signal . Try and beg, steal, buy or borrow some different cable to rule that out (doesn't have to be overly expensive say £2.50 per meter stuff should do).
    If new cable doesn't fix things then start looking at your interconnects between source and amp. Make sure they are connected properly and are the correct type (ie digital coax, digital optical, rca phono etc). You mentioned that the ones you are using are cheap and nasty. I'd be inclined to get a better quality cable say £15-£20. If new interconnects doesn't solve it then you're likely to have a hardware problem with either the source or amp. To rule out the amp try a different source to see if the same issues arise (a walkman or personal cd player would do). If the amp is found to be ok then that just leaves the source (cdp or dvd player).
    It's simply a process of elimination.

    let us know how you get on:smashin:
     
  5. 337GUS

    337GUS
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    All you can do is go back to basics and do the detective work, check for bad or loose connections, swap each bit out one by one.

    Borrow or buy cheap cables.

    Move the speakers and equipment round the room even try it in a different room.

    Try to borrow alternative equipment piece by piece.

    Even look at the mains cables / distribution block etc?

    When you say you heard the cd and speakers were they your's or just the same model?

    Are you using the CD or Amp's DAC?

    Gus
     
  6. Hawklord

    Hawklord
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    Another thing- does the sound arise on all sound formats (dd, dts prologic, five channel stereo etc) or just on one. If it's all then the amp may not be the problem. If it's prologic2 or any other singular format then the processing chip in the receiver may be faulty:(
     
  7. Dimmy

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    I'm using the CD's Dacs, as I say, I'll be changing the source within the week so if the same characterisics are exhibited I can eliminate the source (or not).

    The problems I've encountered were initially encountered in Direct (i.e. Stereo) mode. But when I switch to Dolby PLII Music I get the same characteristics in the vocals out of the centre speaker, which is connected with different (QED Micra) speaker cable to the L/R speakers :confused:.

    Does this mean it's the amp? Or the source?

    I hope it's the amp, gives me an excuse to change it. But, of course, I'll be upgrading the interconnects anyway.

    Sorry if my spelling's awful but I'm extremely drunk and can barely see the screen :p.
     
  8. Hawklord

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    I think we can rule out the speakers as I feel it's strange that the same characteristics are heard through all speaker even with different speaker cable. (unless that's just the voicing of the speakers any way?).
    If your amp is providing the same kind of sound in variuos sound formats then it's either totally had it or the source signal it's receiving is corrupt imo. The simplist thing to do I would suggest is change the cdp's interconnects to see if that cleans the signal up. If this doesn't then either the cdp or amp is causing the sound issue and the only way to resolve that is to replace one or the other to see which remedies the situation.

    Like I said process of elimination:)

    Have you any mates or neighbpours nearby that could loan you some interconnects to initially rule them out. I lay odds on it being the cheap one your currently using as the major culprit at the moment.

    Let us know how you get on
     
  9. Andywilliams

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    Hi Dimmy
    I had a similar problem with my m&ks but not quite as bad as you only at very high levels with music not movies.Ditched the qed interconnects for van den hul the bay c5 interconnects(can be had for around 30 quid a pair if you shop round) changed speaker cable to chord carnival around 2.50 metre this seemed to smooth the treble at high volumes,I would steer clear of the qed silver cables as these seem to make bright sounding systems sound worse.
    The pioneer dvd player wont be helping things either as pioneer seem to er to the bright side, denon on the other hand are more smoother sounding.
    Cheers Gonzo.:)
     
  10. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    Hello again guys from a now Sober Dimmy...

    The Denon's (2800mkII) back in my possesion as of next saturday, and when I fetch it I'll buy some descent interconnects too. I'll assume that if I change both of these things and still get the same problem it's most definitely the amp?

    If it is then I'll change the amp in about three weeks...

    Only 17 mind you, so don't have acres of money to spend (well, have to spread it too thinly more like!)... :(

    I'll let you know what happens on the saturday, see if the character of sound changes at all.
     
  11. Daneel

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    Dimmy, I'd stay away from expensive interconnets for the moment (unless you can simply borrow them). I have the same problem you are decribing on my system although to a lesser degree. The MCACC on my Pioneer helps somewhat but I noticed that adding a power amp removed the problem entirely (as well as improving just about everything else). Based on that and what you have said I'd guess it is down to your amp.

    I'm not talking about extreme volume either, the difference was apparent even at -40 (assuming my amp is correctly calibrated that is just 65 dB)
     
  12. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    How much 'Welly' do you guys think a new amp would need to get the best out of the missions?

    I've decided to just upgrade it now anyway, regardless of the improvement the Denon brings to things.
     
  13. Flimber

    Flimber
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    Put a pair of different speakers in and see if the problem remains. Preferably, some which are "non-Sssss-y" in another known system.

    Yes, I have read the thread :) Cables...pah...

    Mike.
     
  14. Daneel

    Daneel
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    Dimmy, I don't know the details of your system other than what you said in your first post. You are running a AV receiver with stereo speakers? I take it the plan is to add more speakers at a later date?

    As for a power amp, Rotel RB-1070?
     
  15. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    I'm running it in both stereo & surround, using 77C1 and 771e speakers for the Centre/Rears.

    I can't add a poweramp unfortunately as the Denon doesn't have pre-outs. Need to buy a new straight-stereo amp (or an AV amp which is extremely good in stereo - an almost impossible find).
     
  16. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    Update - I'm buying Smurfin's Pioneer VSX-D2011 and biamping the front channels (I don't have an EX setup).

    If this doesn't do the trick I'll cry...
     
  17. Daneel

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    Eeeek! I think you are going to cry. I hope I am wrong but I wouldn't count on it. I believe the treble is stronger on the Pioneer than the Denon so I would expect the same result, biaming may help a little, it did with me, I think, but no huge difference.
     
  18. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    (aswell as using the Denon 2800mkII as the CD player instead of the Pioneer, and buying some new 'smooth' cables) :confused:???
     
  19. Daneel

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    Arg, too many variables. Suck them and see, preferably the cheaper lollys first. :)

    BTW that is one seriously messed up sig yuo have there, it is quite frightening.
     
  20. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    Lol, I'll assume you haven't seen Kill Bill?

    I'll post back in this thread whe I have the amp RE: the improvement gained.
     
  21. Mr Pumpkinhead

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    Do you get the same problem if you run in Direct mode?

    I assume you've checked the tone control in stereo and rolled off the treble a bit?
     
  22. trevor g

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    denon 3803 will prob solve the problem jvc intc?
     
  23. trevor g

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    denon 3803 will prob solve the problem jvc intc?
     
  24. Dimmy

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    Yes, I do get the problem in Direct Mode. I'm not going to roll off the treble. Tried it, and the sound just went flat as a pancake.

    The 2800mkII came back today, about an hour ago, with some nice new cables, and the sibilance problem remains (although it is slightly less intrusive on the overall sound).

    The VSX-D2011 arrives two weeks today, and I'll post back with the improvements gained when it arrives, and whether it's cured my problem.
     
  25. karkus30

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    Sometimes sibilance is mistaken for an extra level of treble detail compared to an older system.

    Speakers wired 'out of phase' can cause strange effects, as the bass output is reduced it tends to exaggerate the treble.

    If its not that, then it may just be a mis matched system, all components being a touch too bright. If your stuck with the AV amp and DVD player, then try using a smoother more laid back speaker.

    Cable does have an effect on the system, but its more of a subtle thing.
     
  26. DonMaico

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    I use to own Denon 1803 and cant say that sibilance was a problem so it could be the player!
     
  27. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    DonMaico - the player was changed and the problem remained, so it was almost definitely the amp (I don't believe it to be the speakers).

    Shiny new 8500 is on the way in a few weeks though, can hardly wait :smashin:.
     
  28. DonMaico

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    I sthat an HK you are buying? I have 5500 now and cannot say I am disappointed plenty of welly and no sibilance
     
  29. Pottsy

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    Dimmy,

    FWIW, I had this problem, and it was a dodgy low quality interconnect.
     
  30. fraggle

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    Interconnects, speaker cable, bright amp matched to bright speakers, all may cause this problem.

    Food for thought.

    Cables are a lot cheaper to buy than new or used amps as well :)
     

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