Question How Small Is Too Small?

GSellman

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How Small Is Too Small? New guy here, but have enjoyed music since I was an early teenager in middle school and I am finally at a point in life where I'd like to carve off a little section of my house for just me and my music. That said, I am starting at ground zero and my question revolves around the room needed for a good listening experience. Ideally I have a "room"/large closet that is ~5x9 ft with 9 ft ceilings that I would like to use for my system. I've done some looking around and see some small listening rooms described as 11x11 or 11x13 etc, but no one down near the 5x9 that I am considering. Interested to hear some feedback from more experienced two channel people on if I could be please with something in this space.
 
Have a look at near field or studio monitors, in particular active ones. These may fit the bill. Examples include the Yamaha HS5/7/8, JBL LSer305/308 and ADAM A5x/A7x. These can be fed directly from a pc or via a pre amp like the Yamaha WXC-50. If looking at more traditional then an integrated amp and small desktop/bookshelf speakers would do the job - second hand I can recommend the B&W CDM1's.

What sources are you looking to use and do you have a budget yet ?
 
Thanks for the feedback! Budget is TBD. I'm not a "skys the limit" kind of person, but realize that if I want it to be nice and enjoyable then I have to spend some sizable amount. In such a space, I've considered $10K as the high end for speakers+amp+CD player. I am very intrigued by the Decware Zen Mystery Amp as the power source for the speakers.
DECWARE / ZEN MYSTERY AMP model ZMA
 
I am going to be brutally honest here - I do not think that you would get any benefit from a $6k amp and similarly matched CD and speakers in a room 5ft x 9ft. If siting opposite the speakers you will be about 3.5ft from them on the short axis (if the speaker were up against the wall, most speakers like 12-18" space behind them, especially the Troels ones you linked which are rear ported) and on the long axis the speakers will be close to the walls/corners. Neither situation is conducive to extremely high quality audio and therefore room effects with overpower the quality of the equipment.

Other may chip in and disagree so please feel free to chip in.

As said. A pair of ADAM A8x plus either a Yamaha WXC50 or Emotiva PT100 preamp and a Cambridge CXC or Emotiva ERC3 would give you 95% of the sound for £15% of the budget IMHO, any more is probably wasted on the compromises that the room will provide.
 
10k is a very heathy budget, but not for that size room. I don't know their availability on your side of the pond but I feel the Marantz CD6006 and PM6006 amp would be more than adequate in that size room with a pair of standmount passive speakers. You could integrate a sub with a Neutrik connector into the system to suppement the bass, something like a REL T5i.
 
In a room that tiny you will really need some room correction to get anything like a decent sound.

For the budget you mentioned then this would be awesome.

MH-2 | Lyngdorf Audio

TDAI-2170 | Lyngdorf Audio

BW-2 | Lyngdorf Audio

But as Ugg mentioned it’s likely to be too much of a budget for a room that size. Although there’s plenty to be said for spending as much as you can for the best quality sound and I’d imagine the Lyngdorf above the best available.

For a lesser but still not small budget then, also as already suggested, I’d go the active speaker route and DiracLive.

As an example of speakers available I’d start here.

LYD 5 - Professional nearfield monitor with 5" woofer - Dynaudio

And one of these,

Dirac Series : DDRC-22DA

With a CD player of your choice, again no need to overspend as you’ll be using it as a transport only in either of the above systems, then you’d be on your way to a great sound.

As for the valve amp and the huge speakers you mention. I’m sure they could be made to work in a very much bigger room, but in yours all that would happen is you’d be swamped by bloated, slow sounding bass and massive reflections from just about everywhere.
 
Headphones my friend :thumbsup:

You'd get a sweet headphone setup for 10k.
 
I agree with others, £10,000 it quite a bit much for such a small room. Also, you might want to consider Acoustically Treating the Space, if you have a budget of £10k.

And the require equipment is -

- CD Player
- Amp/Receiver
- Speakers


To which I would add Network Streaming. Network Streaming can stream from local storage, and from Internet Radio and Internet Streaming Services like Spotify (Pandora, Tidal, others). You certainly have sufficient budget that Network Streaming would not be a problem.

I would suggest Bookshelf Speakers with no Subwoofer in that small space.

As to the Amp, you might want to consider what features you want the amp to have. For example, Tone Controls - yes or no? Many higher end amps are what I call Minimalist Amp, they have Volume and Select, and that is about it. Myself, I want Tone Controls, though I rarely use them.

Then a Digital to Analog Converter (DAC), very desirable in a modern amp, but can be purchased as a separate item. Most commonly a DAC is used to connect to a computer, or to a TV set for TV/Movie watching. In some case CD Players are really only CD Transports which require an external DAC.

I would say you could have a very nice system in the price range of about £3000 to perhaps £4000, and that would include CD, Amp/Receiver, Speakers, and Network Streaming.

Speakers will likely make the biggest difference in how the system sounds. In this case, you want to think about what you want from the speakers? Do you like them bass heavy, or sweet and smooth, or do you like strong Mid/High presence? Unless you have a specific preference, then generally well balanced speakers are the goal.

You probably want decent power, though in that small room you will never use it to its fullest, it will none the less help control the speaker. I would suggest roughly 100w/ch or more.

Though small Floorstanding speakers might be workable, I think you will be very satisfied with Bookshelf speakers, as long as they are not too small. I would suggest 165mm (6.5 inch) minimum. However if you consider Floorstanding, I would stick withe speakers with 2x130mm (5") drivers.

Though there are many others to choose from, these is an example of the Best Cambridge Audio has to offer -

£1400/ea = Cambridge 851N Network Player/Streamer

£1400/ea = Cambridge 851A Integrated Amp, 120w/ch

£1400/ea = Cambridge 851C CD Player
------------------------------
£4200 = Total


Cambridge Audio - Azur 851N Network Player

Cambridge Audio - Azur 851A Integrated Amp

Cambridge AUdio - Azur 851C CD Player

Of course a similar thing can be done in other brands - Yamaha, Rotel, Marantz, Parasound, etc.... The above simply illustrates one of the possibilities to lend perspective.

For speakers, again it depends on what you are looking for. If we assume a balanced sound focusing on detail and clarity, then we can makes some suggestions.

£4000/pr = Dali Epicon 2 -
Dali Rubicon 2 Speakers (Pair)

£1600/pr= Dali Rubicon 2 -
Dali Rubicon 2 Speakers (Pair)

£2400/pr = Dali Rubicon 5 Floorstanding -
Dali Rubicon 5 Speakers (Pair)

£3150/pr = Monitor Audio Platinum PL100 -

Monitor Audio Platinum PL100 II Santos Rosewood Bookshelf Speakers (Pair) - Monitor Audio - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

£1800/pr = Bowers-Wilkins 705 -
B&W 705 S2 Bookshelf Speakers - Superfi

A lot of the products recommended are Flagship top of the line. I'm not necessarily sure you need that, but that is your choice to make. Again, I think you could do well in the roughly £3000 to £4000 range.

Also, remember the equipment listed in not necessarily a recommendation, more to just illustrate what might be possible with that budget.

Lastly, room acoustic. In that small space you need something to control reflections. A few Acoustic Panel strategically placed, perhaps a Diffuser would work wonders for the room. Like anything else in Audio, these aspects can be modestly priced, or can run quite expensive.

There are Acoustic Panels that can have Artwork printed on them, and can be very decorative. Plases that sell this type of panel can even print your own photos onto the panels.

Auralex Sonic Prints is one example -

SonicPrint by Auralex

SonicPrint by Auralex -Artists

SonicPrint by Auralex - Artist - Ali Cook

SonicPrint by Auralex - Artist - Greg Menkedick

That should help get you started.

Again, narrowing down the specifics of you needs, help us help you find what you need.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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Agree with almost everything already said. I too would go the active speaker route (rather than passive speakers + amp) for two reasons:

Most small active speakers are perfectly suited to close-up (or nearfield) listening and in a room that small, you will be.

Very small rooms tend to sound quite bassy/warm with anything other than small speakers with well-controlled bass. IME, well-designed active speakers usually have better bass control giving tighter, more accurate bass than equivalently sized passives (if there are exceptions, I haven't come across them)

That said, I am starting at ground zero

Don't enter the fray with a multi-thousand pound purchase. In that room, it's unnecessary. The advantage of a really small room (says he, looking for the positives) is that excellent audio comes much cheaper. An active speaker pair each with a 5" bass/mid driver would be about the largest I would use in that room and I have used several speakers in various room sizes (no room quite that small though).

May I also suggest the excellent JBL LSR305 which, by all accounts, punches way above its price point. Further up the price range:

AVI ADM5 AVI Hi-Fi | a passion for sound
Neumann KH120A https://www.thomann.de/gb/neumann_kh_120_a.htm
Focal Shape 40 or 50 Focal Shape 50 | KMR Audio
...although the bass of the Shape 50 may prove too strong for your room.
Genelc M030 https://www.thomann.de/gb/genelec_m030.htm

There are many, many other quality active monitors around £1000/pair and, personally, I wouldn't spend more than that. Extra expenditure mainly buys you more power and higher volume capabilities rather than better audio quality.
 
in a room so small I'll stay with 2-way active/passive standmount speakers no bigger than 5"


active jbl ls305
passive QA 3020


and a room correction equipment eventually
in the like of dspeaker 2.0 dual core or minidsp dirac ddrc24

imho
 
Um... he has up to £10,000 to spend, though I suspect he doesn't have to spend all of it.

If you go for Active Monitors, which is not a bad idea, I would still get a quality Pre-Amp to drive them. And of course, you will still need a CD Player, and if you choose, a Network Streamer.

There are some pretty expensive Studio Monitors. The Focal Monitor TRIO6 BE being one example.

Focal Monitor TRIO6 BE, 8", 3-way - £4200/pair -

Focal Trio6 BE 3-Way Active Studio Monitors (Pair)

https://www.focal.com/sites/www.foc...log/document/trio6-be_specification-sheet.pdf

But, a Pre-Amp costs nearly as much as an integrated amp, so you really don't save any money.

Rotel RC-1572 Pre-Amp with DAC, Network Capability - £995 -


Rotel RC-1572 Preamplifier - HiFiGear

ROTEL - RC-1572 Pre-Amp

http://rotel.com/sites/default/files/product/infosheets/RC1572_InfoSheet.pdf

Rotel RC-1590 Stereo Pre-Amp w/DAC, Network Capability - £1495 -


Rotel RC-1590 Stereo Pre-Amplifier - HiFiGear

Rotel - RC-1590 Pre-Amp

http://rotel.com/sites/default/files/product/infosheets/RC1590_InfoSheet.pdf

Just for reference, here are the ROTEL RA-1572 Integrated Amp and the ROTEL RA-1592 Integrated amp.

Rotel RA-1572 Stereo Integrated Amp w/DAC, Network, 120w/ch - $1395 -

Rotel RA-1572 Integrated Amplifier - HiFiGear

Rotel RA-1592 Stereo Integrated Amp w/DAC, Network, 200w/ch - £2095 -


Rotel RA-1592 Integrated Amplifie - HiFiGear

Rotel RCD-1572 CD Player - £945 -

Rotel RCD-1572 CD Player - HiFiGear

Again, there are options in other brands. Some of the higher end Marantz are very nice. Equally the higher end Yamaha are nice. Parasound from Stone Audio are very good.

The more feedback we get from the Original Poster, the more we can narrow down potential equipment.

Personally, give how expensive Pre-Amp are, I would skip Active Monitors and go with Passive Speakers, and an Integrated Amp. Though Active speakers are a legitimate approach.

Putting together a basic system using Rotel, we come up with this -

£1400/ea = Rotel RA-1572, 120w/ch Amp, DAC, Network
£_945/ea = Rotel RCD-1572 CD Player
£2000/pr to £4000/pr = Speakers of your choice
------------------------------------------
£4345 to £6345 = Total


Again, similar things can be done in other brands.

Yamaha AS1100 Integrated Amp, 90w/ch - £1150 -


Yamaha A-S1100 Silver Stereo Amplifier - Yamaha - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

Yamaha AS2100 Integrated Amp, 90w/ch - £1650 -


Yamaha A-S2100 Black Audiophile Stereo Amplifier - Yamaha - AudioVisual Online

Yamaha CD-S1000 CD Player - £1000 -


Yamaha CD-S1000 Black CD Player - Yamaha - AudioVisual Online

Yamaha CD-S2100 CD Player - £1600 -


Yamaha CD-S2100 Black Audiophile CD Player w/ SACD - Yamaha - AudioVisual Online

Marantz PM14S1-SE, 90w/ch - £1650 -


Marantz PM14S1 SE Black Integrated Stereo Amplifier - Marantz - AudioVisual Online

Marantz CD-14S1-SE CD/SACD Player - £1650 -

Marantz SA14S1 SE Black Super Audio CD Player w/ USB DAC - CD Players - AudioVisual Online

Marantz ND8006 CD Player + Network Streaming - £1100 -

https://www.hifix.co.uk/hi-fi/hi-fi-separates/cd-players/marantz-nd8006-cd-player-with-dac-mode

Again, just a cross section of possibilities.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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For 10K - probably best to just get a garage/extension built (if that is an option) and spend a few hundred quid on the sound.

Room modes in a room that size will be quite high up - huge boosts at 62 / 125 Hz etc, probably a deep null at 160 or so and probably little or no bass below 60Hz. Image might be awful as well as first reflection will be close to direct line. Add in higher frequency ringing / flutter echos so nasty mid range as well.

To get a sense of this - if you have a Bluetooth speaker or ghetto-baster etc - listen to it in your living room, then move it to the box room and listen - you should quickly become aware of the difference.

It probably doesn't matter what you spend - it will sound horrible and very little room to control the sound with furnishings etc.

Small near field monitors (monitors 2-3ft from your ears) will be your best bet - really no point at all on spending anything on HiFi.
 
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For 10K - probably best to just get a garage/extension built (if that is an option) and spend a few hundred quid on the sound.

Room modes in a room that size will be quite high up - huge boosts at 62 / 125 Hz etc, probably a deep null at 160 or so and probably little or no bass below 60Hz. Image might be awful as well as first reflection will be close to direct line. Add in higher frequency ringing / flutter echos so nasty mid range as well.

To get a sense of this - if you have a Bluetooth speaker or ghetto-baster etc - listen to it in your living room, then move it to the box room and listen - you should quickly become aware of the difference.

It probably doesn't matter what you spend - it will sound horrible and very little room to control the sound with furnishings etc.

Small near field monitors (monitors 2-3ft from your ears) will be your best bet - really no point at all on spending anything on HiFi.

Yup. Agree with everything here.

I’d repeat only that whatever you get, in a room that size especially, a good quality room correction software will be essential.

And only ‘RoomPerfect’ (Lyngdorf), so far as I know, will work without adding hefty room treatment to an already small space.

DiracLive is also worth the money and is less expensive and will help in your room.
 
First off, a lot of incredibly detailed feedback and very much appreciated.

The comment on using a headphone setup intrigues me a bit, but having never really experience anything more than a pair of Apple earbuds, would I get the same open, expansive sound stage that I'd expect could be achieved with a stereo pair of speakers.

I had not really considered active speakers before either, so looks like I have much more reading to do.

Best news of all, $10K sounds like plenty big a budget to do almost whatever I want in a space so small, guess I have that going for me. ;-)
 
... And only ‘RoomPerfect’ (Lyngdorf), so far as I know, will work without adding hefty room treatment to an already small space.

DiracLive is also worth the money and is less expensive and will help in your room.

I've said this before and taken quite a bit of heat form Lyngdorf fan-boys, but even the very best Room Correction can not make up for a bad room. It can make a good room better, but it can't make a bad room good. This is Room Correction, not the Starship Enterprise.

But ... it can make a good (within a reasonable context) room better.

Based on the analysis by Khazul, it seems more of the problem will be at higher frequencies due to the short dimensions of the room. Fortunately Mid and High frequencies are the easiest to control with Acoustic Panels.

Here is a video demonstrating how simply Foam Acoustic Panels can help improve a room.



The Host perform a "clap test", you can clearly hear the echo. Add acoustic panels and those reflections/echo are nicely controlled.

I simply use the video because it came up in another discussion recently and I was familiar with it. But there are countless videos on Room Acoustics on YouTube that can help lend perspective to the problem.

Again, relative to the Original Poster, it is not really clear what his objectives are. Someone suggested 5" Active or Passive speakers, and they can sound very good. The KEF LS50 is an award winning revelation of a speaker with a 5" (~130mm) bass driver. But you have to except the the bass depth is limited, which is why I would suggest 6.5" (165mm) bass drivers. However, as Khuzul pointed out, the bass depth of the room is limited, so I would say 5" or 6.5" bookshelf are the best choices ... depending on the specific needs of the individual. In Studio Monitors 5" are very common.

Though some of the old links are now broken, here is a thread that is an overview of Room Acoustics -

Primer: Acoustics - Absorption & Diffusion

Steve/bluewizard
 
The comment on using a headphone setup intrigues me a bit, but having never really experience anything more than a pair of Apple earbuds, would I get the same open, expansive sound stage that I'd expect could be achieved with a stereo pair of speakers.

With your budget, yes.

Take yourself to a store and do a few demos. If you slip your budget into a conversation with a store clerk, they'll be very obliging...
 
With all due respect and with apologize for my bluntness, but ....

How does someone with £10,000 to spend end up with a 5ftx9ft room? I mean it is what it is, but context goes a long way when choosing equipment.

While I have been recommending some pretty expensive equipment, it is somewhat wasted on that room and on that Budget.

Might I suggest a still very good, but more modest system -

Yamaha RN803 Network Receiver, 100w/ch, DAB/DAB+, Room Correction, Bass Management, Network Streaming, DAC - £570 - (on sale) -

Yamaha R-N803D Silver Stereo Hi-Fi Receiver w/ MusicCast - Yamaha - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

Yamaha R-N803D Black Stereo Hi-Fi Receiver w/ MusicCast - Yamaha - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

MusicCast R-N803D - Overview - HiFi Components - Audio & Visual - Products - Yamaha - UK and Ireland

That covers everything that has been discussed - Decent Power, Room EQ, Bass Management, Network Streaming, and the bonus of DAB/DAB+ Radio.

Though just throwing some things out with regard to speakers -

Wharfedale REVA 2 (5") Bookshelf Speakers - £430/pr -

Wharfedale Reva 2 Gloss Black Bookshelf Speakers (Pair) - Wharfedale - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists



Wharfedale tend to be very easy to listen to speakers with low fatigue, and would be nice in a small room.

While you can get a CD Player from any brand, is we assume Yamaha, then in proportion to the other equipment, this is a possibility -

Yamaha CDS700 CD Player - £400 -


Yamaha CDS700 CD Player - Superfi

So -

£570/ea = Yamaha RN803 Network Receiver
£400/ea = Yamaha CDS700 CD Player
£430/pr = Wharfedale REVA-2 Bookshelf Speaker (pair)
-------------------------------
£1400 = Total


Despite not costing £10,000, that is still a very good and very versatile system.

The Yamaha RN803 ticks all the boxes.

Again, the room; the room itself does creates problems, especially for a higher end system. Even with a good but lower end system, the room would have to be acoustically treated to have any hope of sounding good.

Still if there is any way to find a larger room in your home (spare bedroom, living room, other) it would be very much to your advantage.

Still ... we do the best we can with what we've got.

Steve/bluewizard
 
What sort of music do you enjoy?
Different types of equipment are more suited to specific genres of music
kc
My music covers a broad range. Born in 1975 I really picked up most of my music in the 90's. A lot of grunge and alternative. Pearl Jam, STP, Nirvana, AIC .Then I do some rap and hip hop, there is poly that I don't mind and I finish with Metallica. In the last few years, jazz has found a home into the playlist as well for when I want to mellow out .

How does someone with £10,000 to spend end up with a 5ftx9ft room? I mean it is what it is, but context goes a long way when choosing equipment.

Wife, two kids and a dog in a 3 bedroom house. Just trying to find a spot to call my own and we have this relatively unused 5x9 storage closet.
 
My very basic set up of Naim Nait 3, Royd Eden would work wonders in this room.
My room is small at 3.5m sq
 
Also have a lock at the German avm audio gear supplied by AVM. Avm provides fully integrated compact units for exceptional sound.
 
Thanks for the feedback! Budget is TBD. I'm not a "skys the limit" kind of person, but realize that if I want it to be nice and enjoyable then I have to spend some sizable amount.

Reply from Julian Stevens

For a musically satisfying system, you don't need to spend anything like £10K and, IMHO, you'd be foolish to do so, regardless of the size of your room. My office system (and my office is a very large suite) is still, after more than 20 years, as musically satisfying as just about any other I've heard at any price (including my home system which, at today's RRP's, would cost inxs of £35K). Sure, I've heard other systems which, in some areas, are more impressive but, for long term listening at home, impressive shouldn't be your top priority and, if you make it so, you'll regret it.

My office system comprises a Sony CD/MiniDisc deck, a Rotel RA-930 AX integrated amplifier and Wharfedale Diamond speakers fed via a JPW passive subwoofer ~ and it's still superbly musical. I recently attended the Bristol HiFi Show (as I do every year) and didn't hear any system (though, of course, I didn't hear every single one) that enchanted me. Sure, we heard a few good ones, but none was amazing.

A friend/client of mine who loves music but who has never owned a proper hifi system, shopping mostly via eBay, recently assembled the following system of pre-owned components for about £300 (except for the Wharfedale Diamond speakers which, for some reason, she insisted on buying new. Given that it's easy to find a pair of recent vintage for under £50, she needn't have): Rotel RA-930AX amp (£70), Sony CD player (£25), JPW passive sub (£25), Cambridge Audio DAB tuner (£42), QED 79 strand speaker cables (less than £20) and two pairs of ProFi interconnects. It sounds absolutely great (to my ears as well as hers) and she's absolutely delighted with it.

Be very wary of room correction. I had a seven year love/hate relationship with the TacT RCS and none of my audiophile friends liked it. I auditioned the Lyngdorf RP1, but the UK distributors took six months to supply a unit for home trial. It was a pain to connect up properly and was riddled with malfunctions. The distributor took it back and admitted it was faulty but made no effort to offer a properly functioning replacement. You don't need RC. If the bass is a bit much in your modest size room, judicious use of the relevant tone control on the Rotel amp will fix it fine. Ditto the treble, should that be a bit bright or a bit dull.[/QUOTE]
 
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With such a small room I would say a really good pair of open back earphones may very well give you more detail at a relatively higher volume than you would get from a pair of speakers at a corresponding volume.

Just think of the other benefits quality headphones could bring. No wife banging on the door telling you to turn it down because she can't hear her favourite soap. Kids laughing at your choice of music. Dogs won't howl. Been there, done it, got the T-shirt.:smashin:
 
Adding Headphones to any of the suggested systems would be easy enough. Headphones and speakers are not mutually exclusive.

Again, I think £10,000 is wasted in that room. I don't think anyone would be crying over having the £1400 system I suggested - versatile amp, sweet speakers, plenty of power.

But, acoustic treatments are going to be a must.

If you want to discuss the Acoustic Treatment aspect, we can certainly offer suggestions, and there used to be an Acoustic Forum hear, but I think it might have been folded into the Home Cinema DIY forum.

In all honesty, I think you should talk the wife into letting you put the system in the Lounge, and use it for both Music and TV, though with a wife and two kids, it then becomes a competition for who controls the system.

If there is a slim chance you have an Office/Study/Library that could be another place to put the stereo.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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