How much subwoofer output capability do you need in your system?

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
I misinterpreted the table because I thought that if a subwoofer could reach reference levels in a room without audible distortion, then that's all you'd ever need. But it seems that there are many variables to the equation of a "Good Subwoofer" like the ULF, mid bass, how fast the sub is, delay, distortion etc. All those variables and the fact that different subs are using different mechanics/strategies to produce bass make things even more confusing. The cherry on top is that we don't know the sensitivity of the drivers and RMS/peaks are just "claimed". Some companies overexaggerate (see Klipsch sensitivities for example).

And then there's the pricing. SVS prices are higher in Europe whereas Arendals come straight from Norway and they're cheaper here. Some examples:

PB-1000pro: 900euros
PB-3000: 1900euros
PB-4000: 2900euros
1723 1V: 1700euros
1723 2V: 2800euros
And then there's a beast XTZ 3x12 which outperforms so many subs, at 2300euros. o_Oo_O

Arendal customer support also advised me to go with dual 1V instead of a single 2V. Don't you think that dual PB-3000 would be a better move for more headroom?

If you chose two PB-1000pros, then wouldn't you feel the need for more headroom? I'm currently using a PB-1000 (non pro) and I can hear a lot of port noise when a movie has bass lower than 25Hz or so. I won't forget that moment, when I was watching "Overlord". I suddenly could hear port and driver noise at the MLP (MV was at -25dB's). Same situation with "Quiet Place", "Aquaman" and the list goes on.



Interesting site, I searched "Aquaman" and checked the graphs there. May I ask what's the difference between the red and the green line? Thanks for sharing by the way. Nice to know that even Ice Age has noticeable rumble action.




Thanks for the help Gasp. It seems that the 1V is no joke either and it's 1100euros cheaper than the 2V, which makes it easier for everyone to gradually go for dual setup. Arendal customer support also suggested that I should go for dual 1V instead of a single 2V. Wouldn't dual PB-3000 be better or?


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Thanks everyone for the replies and all the help!

Klipsch doesn´t overexaggerate the sensitivity they just show it differently. They still do have above average sensitivity when measured. "Klipsch is using an in-room estimation of sensitivity that factors in a quarter-space environment over a greater distance."

The max output figures doesn`t tell us how these models sound. It would be tough to choose between those two as you can imagine they will be huge step up from your PB1000. Sparechange youtube dude owns dual PB16U and tested two Arendal 2Vs against them which he felt sounded more controlled and cleaner over SVS. Youthman, Tha Villaman and James at Audioholics all gave high praise for 1V & 2V. Both models have app control, Arendal is available in nicer finishes and has longer 10year warranty (5y amp). The PB3000 is proven performer and many at least here at AVF feels it´s the sweet spot, but just missing the ULF stuff. PB4000 adds the extended mode so you would be using 2ports open in that mode. The price jump is rather hefty even if you get nicer gloss black finish. Arendal has full power down to 10hz. As for the possible port noise and generally if you have questions for 1V tag @DLxP as he owns two of them.


3x12 is a beast if you got the space, but two of these would be quite a sight. Josh was quite impressed with it if you read the below link. Similar output to Monolith 16 THX higher up. You could also lay them on the front/rear walls.
 

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DLxP

Distinguished Member
As for the possible port noise and generally if you have questions for 1V tag @DLxP as he owns two of them.
Just to say, I've never encountered any port noise at all. That said, I'm currently running both in sealed mode. Not for any particular reason other than the fact I tried a calibration with them in sealed and couldn't hear any difference, so never bothered removing the bungs.

Essentially, in sealed mode a 1V is the equivalent of a higher powered 1S. Which for the reasons discussed, especially with 2, is plenty powerful enough. 😎
 
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Deleted member 901590

Guest
Interesting site, I searched "Aquaman" and checked the graphs there. May I ask what's the difference between the red and the green line? Thanks for sharing by the way. Nice to know that even Ice Age has noticeable rumble action.

The lines are showing before and after what is called BassEQ being applied. Rather than me explain, it's easier for you to see here:

 
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Deleted member 901590

Guest
We've been on a war theme recently, coincidently: War Horse, 1917, Jarhead, Zero Dark Thirty, Hurt Locker. All have content well under 20Hz, most have content under 10.

In that list I shared, Hurt Locker looks like one the films with the most sub-20Hz content, is that the Conrad household main demo? :)
 

Conrad

Moderator
In that list I shared, Hurt Locker looks like one the films with the most sub-20Hz content, is that the Conrad household main demo? :)

No. For total bass immersion it’s the opening of BR2049 and for sub bass it’s Black Hawk Down. The take off scene has 6Hz content.
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
If you chose two PB-1000pros, then wouldn't you feel the need for more headroom?
Yes, but my dual PB-1000 comment was to simply stress the importance of having dual subs rather than just one.

I actually bought two PB-3000s about 10 months ago and if I lost them somehow (fire, stolen etc.) I would buy them again today without hesitation. Their performance is ridiculously good. When I bought them I also considered the Arendal 1V and Monoprice THX 15" but felt more confident in buying SVS due to long term product support. I keep my gear a very long time compared to most people and if in say 10 years time I needed a new plate amp I'm far more confident in being able to source an SVS one due to the sheer volume of subs they sell.

That said, I'm certain the Arendal 1723 1V is a truly amazing sub and that I wouldn't have been disappointed with it at all. So I don't think you would regret buying either of them.
 

Veloc

Member
Klipsch doesn´t overexaggerate the sensitivity they just show it differently. They still do have above average sensitivity when measured. "Klipsch is using an in-room estimation of sensitivity that factors in a quarter-space environment over a greater distance."

The max output figures doesn`t tell us how these models sound. It would be tough to choose between those two as you can imagine they will be huge step up from your PB1000. Sparechange youtube dude owns dual PB16U and tested two Arendal 2Vs against them which he felt sounded more controlled and cleaner over SVS. Youthman, Tha Villaman and James at Audioholics all gave high praise for 1V & 2V. Both models have app control, Arendal is available in nicer finishes and has longer 10year warranty (5y amp). The PB3000 is proven performer and many at least here at AVF feels it´s the sweet spot, but just missing the ULF stuff. PB4000 adds the extended mode so you would be using 2ports open in that mode. The price jump is rather hefty even if you get nicer gloss black finish. Arendal has full power down to 10hz. As for the possible port noise and generally if you have questions for 1V tag @DLxP as he owns two of them.


3x12 is a beast if you got the space, but two of these would be quite a sight. Josh was quite impressed with it if you read the below link. Similar output to Monolith 16 THX higher up. You could also lay them on the front/rear walls.

Thanks for explaining Gasp! I watched everything from Villaman to Sparechange and they all give high praise for the Arendal subs. Same goes for the PB-3000 on this forum. As I read the posts on this thread, there isn't much of the ULF content out there, so the PB-3000 could serve me well.

I have the space for the 3x12 and you get too much sub for that money with that beast as it seems. Unfortunately they're sold out for a couple of months and XTZ doesn't know exactly when they'll become available again. I couldn't go duals with the 3x12 though budget-wise, at least not for now.

Last but not least, since you mentioned the Monolith 16 THX sub, I wish there were Europe dealers with that monster, in order to avoid the custom fees..

Just to say, I've never encountered any port noise at all. That said, I'm currently running both in sealed mode. Not for any particular reason other than the fact I tried a calibration with them in sealed and couldn't hear any difference, so never bothered removing the bungs.

Essentially, in sealed mode a 1V is the equivalent of a higher powered 1S. Which for the reasons discussed, especially with 2, is plenty powerful enough. 😎

Hey DLxP, thanks for sharing your experience with the 1V!
You're running your subs sealed, but isn't that going to reduce their output in your room?

The lines are showing before and after what is called BassEQ being applied. Rather than me explain, it's easier for you to see here:


Useful link, thanks! It made me understand what's going on there. I bookmarked those links!

In that list I shared, Hurt Locker looks like one the films with the most sub-20Hz content, is that the Conrad household main demo? :)

I watched Hurt Locker the other day and the explosion during the first minutes of the movie, was something out of this world. I could rewind and play it 24/7 even if my sub is small!

Yes, but my dual PB-1000 comment was to simply stress the importance of having dual subs rather than just one.

I actually bought two PB-3000s about 10 months ago and if I lost them somehow (fire, stolen etc.) I would buy them again today without hesitation. Their performance is ridiculously good. When I bought them I also considered the Arendal 1V and Monoprice THX 15" but felt more confident in buying SVS due to long term product support. I keep my gear a very long time compared to most people and if in say 10 years time I needed a new plate amp I'm far more confident in being able to source an SVS one due to the sheer volume of subs they sell.

That said, I'm certain the Arendal 1723 1V is a truly amazing sub and that I wouldn't have been disappointed with it at all. So I don't think you would regret buying either of them.

I see what you mean. SVS is like having a good, loyal girlfriend/boyfriend. They will respond back, help and support their customers in no time! While Arendal does that too, XTZ and Monoprice seemed kinda worrisome to me.

It's a tough decision for sure. I guess I could go for the 60 days buy and try from Arendal and see how it goes. Unfortunately Europe doesn't get that buy and try for the SVS subwoofers.
 

DLxP

Distinguished Member
Hey DLxP, thanks for sharing your experience with the 1V!
You're running your subs sealed, but isn't that going to reduce their output in your room?
Yes, that's right. It's not a huge difference though, and only really affects the 15-30Hz range by a few dB. I should stress that there's no particular reason I'm running them sealed other than the fact I couldn't be bothered to remove the seals once I put them in there, as there wasn't any noticeable difference.

In practice, the output difference between the 1V in sealed/ported is fairly academic for me. In either mode I can comfortably hit reference above 20Hz, and once it gets above 30Hz there's lots of headroom above reference. That would be with just one, and obviously I'm running a pair.

The other factor is my set-up's in a living room, and I very rarely play anywhere near THX reference levels, so I'm very well catered for with the 1Vs.

Still, that hasn't stopped me looking at bigger subs (the JTR RS1 has tempted me a few times), so I keep having to remind myself I've already got more power than I need!
 

Veloc

Member
Yes, that's right. It's not a huge difference though, and only really affects the 15-30Hz range by a few dB. I should stress that there's no particular reason I'm running them sealed other than the fact I couldn't be bothered to remove the seals once I put them in there, as there wasn't any noticeable difference.

In practice, the output difference between the 1V in sealed/ported is fairly academic for me. In either mode I can comfortably hit reference above 20Hz, and once it gets above 30Hz there's lots of headroom above reference. That would be with just one, and obviously I'm running a pair.

The other factor is my set-up's in a living room, and I very rarely play anywhere near THX reference levels, so I'm very well catered for with the 1Vs.

Still, that hasn't stopped me looking at bigger subs (the JTR RS1 has tempted me a few times), so I keep having to remind myself I've already got more power than I need!

I've read somewhere that a few more dB's at the deepest bass notes, could be perceived as twice as loud. Not sure if that's true though. If you didn't notice any difference then you're great with them sealed anyway.

Since you have all the power you need, then there's no need to upgrade I guess. You could always go for a third 1V, but I don't know if that'd help you.

To be completely honest with you, I don't know how reference bass volume sounds like since I never owned a capable sub. So I don't really know what to expect. Are there people that want their bass louder than reference volumes? And is the "reference volume" the same as the THX reference levels?

Thanks again for sharing your experience with the big guns, 1V's!
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Yes, that's right. It's not a huge difference though, and only really affects the 15-30Hz range by a few dB. I should stress that there's no particular reason I'm running them sealed other than the fact I couldn't be bothered to remove the seals once I put them in there, as there wasn't any noticeable difference.

In practice, the output difference between the 1V in sealed/ported is fairly academic for me. In either mode I can comfortably hit reference above 20Hz, and once it gets above 30Hz there's lots of headroom above reference. That would be with just one, and obviously I'm running a pair.

The other factor is my set-up's in a living room, and I very rarely play anywhere near THX reference levels, so I'm very well catered for with the 1Vs.

Still, that hasn't stopped me looking at bigger subs (the JTR RS1 has tempted me a few times), so I keep having to remind myself I've already got more power than I need!

Bit suprised about this not for the figures wise, but more of how different they should sound in vented/sealed mode. Maybe a silly question but did you remember to change the mode to sealed from the app after adding bungs? So you are not running it sealed in vented mode as i saw the Arendal app has now that function. The earlier ones didn´t to my knowledge (from amp panel)?
 

DLxP

Distinguished Member
Maybe a silly question but did you remember to change the mode to sealed from the app after adding bungs? S
Yep, I changed the modes.

Bit suprised about this not for the figures wise, but more of how different they should sound in vented/sealed mode.

The main difference should be a slight increase in output 20-30Hz in vented mode, vs a more gradual roll-off below 20Hz when run sealed. Theoretically sealed subs also have less group delay, but debateable whether that's audible. Once the room and Dirac are involved, then any differences between sealed and vented modes - particularly when run about 10dB below reference - aren't likely to be particularly audible. I know a lot of people say sealed subs sound 'faster' and 'more accurate', but that's largely nonsense.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Yep, I changed the modes.



The main difference should be a slight increase in output 20-30Hz in vented mode, vs a more gradual roll-off below 20Hz when run sealed. Theoretically sealed subs also have less group delay, but debateable whether that's audible. Once the room and Dirac are involved, then any differences between sealed and vented modes - particularly when run about 10dB below reference - aren't likely to be particularly audible. I know a lot of people say sealed subs sound 'faster' and 'more accurate', but that's largely nonsense.

There will be more than slight increase in output at the deepest frequencies. Compared to 1S which is slightly smaller, but still gives you good idea (left figure Arendal / right figure SVS bolded):

12,5hz - 1V has passing score, not 1S - 9db
16hz - 11,2db - 18,3db
20hz - 8,8db - 14,5db to 17,5db depending port mode
25hz - 3,9db - 10db to 13db depending port mode

SVS PB4000 on right side as an example how much more output vs. sealing the ports as Arendal doesn`t have this type of data.

"By the time we get down to 30Hz, it only takes a +5dB increase in SPL to equal a doubling in perceived loudness. So, a +4 to +5dB increase in low-frequency SPL can sound very significant."

More than any figures i`m suprised if you don`t hear difference in ported/sealed mode regarding more tactical sensation/rumble feel at those listening levels. Do you have small room? The group delay isn´t issue if you look 2V measurements it was excellent even in the deepest frequencies.
 

DLxP

Distinguished Member
My room's 5.5m * 4m * 2.5m = 55m3/1942ft3. For the sake of it, in terms of output, let's assume the 1V is just as powerful in sealed mode as a 1S (in reality, it's more powerful and has a significantly larger cab). Using the chart on p1, we can see that in a ~2000ft3 room a single 1S @20hz is able to produce -6dB below reference. So two should produce an estimated 1-2dB below reference, at 20Hz.

Now, as noted, the 1V when sealed will have more output than the 1S, we just don't know how much more. However I'd wager it would more than offset that 1-2dB at 20Hz. That would effectively mean, when sealed, 2*1V in my room will hit reference at 20Hz.

But of course, the vast majority of the material the sub is called on for is well above 20Hz, and at above 30Hz two 1Vs in sealed mode would in my room be capable of output in excess of reference. By the time we're in the 40-60Hz chest slam area, two 1Vs are capable of >120dB in my room.

The other part of the picture is I don't listen anywhere near those levels. The point about differences in perceived loudness isn't relevant of course, because my listening level isn't adjusted relative to the subs' maximum output (i.e. the only difference is in the amount of unused headroom).

I should also say that -10dB below reference is probably the maximum volume I listen at. As @Mr Wolf has noted, that's perceived in room as equivalent to cinema reference levels. In practice, most of my viewing is Netflix/Prime etc. after 9pm with the other half (my system's a living room set up), which doesn't require listening at reference levels!

All said though, I have just bought an NX6000D and plan to build some 18" subs ... but that's another story! :rotfl:
 

calvinhobbes80

Novice Member
(from a noob who appreciates the level of details provided & discussed here)
For my ~3800 ft^3 sound stage (in an open floor plan of 14000+) will sit a 9.1 setup (Paradigm Founders 120H/70LCR+sides+atmos, Anthem AVM70, Apollon 11ch purifi amp). Subwoofer is currently not finalized. For various reasons, sub-woofer has to go in a 23'x29' corner (w/ power + in-wall 14G wire). After reviewing Mr. Wolf's data (and all you gurus' subsequent weigh-ins), I'm leaning towards Monoprice 13" or SVS PB-3000s. I can either purchase 1x or 2x (which will have to stacked vertifically - due to aforementioned space constraint). But, I hear that stacking subs is a terrible idea. Penny for your thoughts?
 
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Deleted member 901590

Guest
(from a noob who appreciates the level of details provided & discussed here)
For my ~3800 ft^3 sound stage (in an open floor plan of 14000+) will sit a 9.1 setup (Paradigm Founders 120H/70LCR+sides+atmos, Anthem AVM70, Apollon 11ch purifi amp). Subwoofer is currently not finalized. For various reasons, sub-woofer has to go in a 23'x29' corner (w/ power + in-wall 14G wire). After reviewing Mr. Wolf's data (and all you gurus' subsequent weigh-ins), I'm leaning towards Monoprice 13" or SVS PB-3000s. I can either purchase 1x or 2x (which will have to stacked vertifically - due to aforementioned space constraint). But, I hear that stacking subs is a terrible idea. Penny for your thoughts?

The idea of multiple subs in different locations is based on the fact that they give a different frequency response, based on their location, relative to the MLP. The different response means that one subwoofer's null can be compensated for by another subwoofer etc.

They also offer an advantage where you want decent FR at various seating locations (for the same reason).

Stacking subs can achieve a tiny amount of this compensation - I have (for example) noted a different FR based on MLP height. However, the benefit is minimal and in general stacking them jsut achieves a slightly higher output and not much else.

Is there really no where else you can fit the same model subwoofer? If it is challenging (@Conrad may disagree with me here) I would even say better than stacking them is to have a smaller subwoofer in another location (especially if you don't need at or near to reference level outputs). This, of course, assumes you have decent EQ system to set them up.
 

calvinhobbes80

Novice Member
The idea of multiple subs in different locations is based on the fact that they give a different frequency response, based on their location, relative to the MLP. The different response means that one subwoofer's null can be compensated for by another subwoofer etc.
logical indeed. In that setup (diff subs in diff locations) Would having different types of subs help that equation more than same subs? E.g. a mono + svs combo vs svs + svs combo?
They also offer an advantage where you want decent FR at various seating locations (for the same reason).

Stacking subs can achieve a tiny amount of this compensation - I have (for example) noted a different FR based on MLP height. However, the benefit is minimal and in general stacking them jsut achieves a slightly higher output and not much else.
makes sense.
Is there really no where else you can fit the same model subwoofer?
Originally, I contemplated a smaller sub e.g. KEF KC62 or SVS-3000micro for placement in the floating cabinet (<15" cubed). But, I was advised against it. It seems the sub-sonic frequencies induce resonance vibrations in cabinet doors, knobs n such causing it to rattle whilst dinosaur in jurassic park would roar. I need to keep remainder floor space clear of any possible obstacles (older parents using walking sticks, wheelchairs n such). Which doesn't me leave me with many options save the one corner I mentioned earlier.
If it is challenging (@Conrad may disagree with me here) I would even say better than stacking them is to have a smaller subwoofer in another location (especially if you don't need at or near to reference level outputs). This, of course, assumes you have decent EQ system to set them up.
The idea of a big-small combo might be worth exploring.
Thanks!
 
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Deleted member 901590

Guest
In that setup (diff subs in diff locations) Would having different types of subs help that equation more than same subs? E.g. a mono + svs combo vs svs + svs combo?

Not set answer to this. It's generally regarded as "better" if they can all be the same make and model. But the other factor is how advanced the EQ you're using.

People using a MiniDSP plus UMIK have so much adjustability for example.

I just have Audyssey, so went for two subs the same make and model to work better with a "more simple" EQ system.

Our rooms are about compromise. @Conrad is an expert in subs and he may be able to suggest a different solution for you. For example, depending on what you measure in your room, you may be lucky and one really good subwoofer can give good results. Especially if your highest priority is response just at MLP and not many other seating positions.
 

AndreNewman

Active Member
The idea of a big-small combo might be worth exploring.
Thanks!
I think it's generally understood that with sealed subs it's easier to mix sizes and get a good result.

With ported subs it's much more difficult, important to have the port tune frequencies the same and this is easiest to achieve by buying identical ported subs.

This has certainly been my experience, oh and mixing ported and sealed subs is really difficult, best avoided unless you really know what you are doing.
 

Conrad

Moderator
Mixing subs of different capabilities and types (ported vs sealed) can be tough.

If you have a small sub then it'll likely roll off sooner than the larger sub so will only contribute through a very specific range. To get the larger sub to be at the appropriate levels both when the smaller sub is present and when it's not could require some heavy EQ on either, or both.

As @AndreNewman says, ported subs that aren't the same likely won't have the same port tune and phasing can change as the primary output moves from driver to port. Those phase changes, being different will interact with the room and each other differently which might work out brilliantly, but it's more likely that you'll struggle to get a good response.

Some of the larger subs now have a very low tune that's often below their useable output, so they behave more like a sealed. But that's not that common.

Even sealed subs have tunes, but they don't exhibit the same phase shifts that ported subs do which is why they're easier.

Unless you have the ability to measure and correct, and you have a very specific problem to solve, matching subs is recommended.
 

DavidT

Well-known Member
I own a Monolith 10 THX in a 30m3 room, I listen at -20dB so looking at the table I have 24dB headroom, I assume that's pretty good. I wonder how my previous sub (BK XLS200) would be rated.
 

Jester1066

Well-known Member
Error post ignore
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
I own a Monolith 10 THX in a 30m3 room, I listen at -20dB so looking at the table I have 24dB headroom, I assume that's pretty good. I wonder how my previous sub (BK XLS200) would be rated.
The XLS200 would rate extremely poorly under this yardstick - a sealed 275W sub with a 10” driver is never going have that much output at 20Hz. Like similar sized RELs, that sub’s really been designed for music, not home cinema.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
The XLS200 would rate extremely poorly under this yardstick - a sealed 275W sub with a 10” driver is never going have that much output at 20Hz. Like similar sized RELs, that sub’s really been designed for music, not home cinema.

88db at 20hz via CEA2010 (2m RMS). :) BK Monolith 300w - ~100db at 20hz (2m RMS). The graphs went to toilet with the forum upgrade, but the text review is still available at hometheatershack forum:

BK XLS200

The shape and extension of the frequency response is heavily affected by the crossover. When set to bypass, the -6 dB point is around 36.5 Hz, but when the crossover is set to minimum, the -6 dB point goes close to 15 Hz. The low pass slope is on the shallow side. The frequency response starts to slope already as high as 70-80 Hz, so rooms having little or no low frequency room gain at all shouldn’t expect deep extension. But with a high low frequency room gain and a crossover setting of 80Hz or less, this little box can reach ~20 Hz extension. The maximum output is naturally limited by the share physical limitations, though close to 90 dB at 20 Hz and over 100 dB above 50 Hz leave even much larger subwoofers swallowing dirt. The XLS200 exhibits extremely low power compression up to the maximum output level.

The THD grows rather steadily towards the low frequencies, keeping the upper end well below 10%. At lower levels the THD stays close to/below 1% in the upper bass range. The group delay is the lowest I have ever measured; it barely touches 5 ms at any frequency. Also the spectral decay shows a superb performance; the whole pass band attenuates very quickly.

The BK XLS200 is a really good performer. It can not challenge the big dogs when it comes to maximum output, but for its size, its capabilities are very respectable. Also the sound quality should be very high, assuming one keeps the output level reasonable. It is geared towards music use or small scale HT, and performs best in small rooms with good amount of low frequency room gain.


  • Good extension when using a low crossover
  • High output for its size
  • Very small subwoofer
  • Extremely low group delay and very fast decay rate at all frequencies
  • Low power compression

  • Weak extension when using a high crossover
  • High distortion at low frequencies at high output levels
 
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DavidT

Well-known Member
Maybe the XLS200 could be added to the table? Its a popular little sub that still sells well.
 

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