How much subwoofer output capability do you need in your system?

D

Deleted member 901590

Guest
I finally got chance to research CTA 2010 measurements and found the article you linked among many others.

I have to say I'm horrified at the acceptable distortion levels, 30% THD, seriously?
While one sub might not sound too horrible at 30% a different design might be totally horrendous at 10%. I don't see any way to know from these measurements which will be which.

If we have some measurements at a lower THD as well, perhaps it's possible to learn something?

A lot (most?) sub amps are Class D these days and usually Class D is extremely low THD until suddenly it's extremely high. In my experience Class D distortion sounds horrible and readily damages drivers and ears! I assume we are relying on the manufacturers to build nice progressive limiters so their subs can run well into distortion so they can publish impressive CTA 2010 tests?

I have to deduce that a CTA 2010 measurement has to taken as a measurement of extreme capability only and considerable headroom should be allowed if we want to hear pleasant bass rather than just lots of it?

Is this really the best the industry can come up with for a standardised test?

I think that the point is that it is something close to comparable figures. Yes, differing distortion levels. And yes the other failing is the "where to measure" - particularly with products like the Arendal subs with funny placed ports.

The objective of the Wolf's table is more for this comparison. And, in reality, there mustn't be that many members looking at the table who listen even near to reference level. So, really it's talking about available headroom.

I'm going to have some power meters on my two subs soon, just report back on power consumption in film/TV peaks at certain MVs. A good indication, I think, of how much headroom we really have in such setups - I'm predicting with class D even typical film peaks may end up less Joules per second than an old fashioned light bulb! 🤣
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
Is this really the best the industry can come up with for a standardised test?

Frankly, I don't know and I understand your thinking. I do however think there is a lot more to this that you're inferring.

My understanding is that the acceptable distortion thresholds for each CEA-2010 test frequency were set based on research into what is audible in practice for most people.

James Larson has written about this a few times on Audioholics. This is worth a read if you want to find out more:

Total Harmonic Distortion (THD): Is It a Good Indicator of Sound Quality?

A relevant extract is below

"The distortion thresholds for CEA-2010 are pictured in Figure 10. The horizontal axis is arranged by harmonic orders, and the test signal is the first harmonic, the fundamental. The stepped lines in the chart indicate the distortion thresholds; in order to achieve a passing CEA-2010 measurement, the output must not generate any harmonics greater than those thresholds. You can see that higher order harmonics have a much lowering passing threshold compared to lower order harmonics, and, as was explained earlier via the equal loudness contour, this is because it is much easier for us to hear higher frequency sounds than deep bass sound, and so sound from those higher harmonic distortions can be audibly objectionable in much smaller amounts."

1641901206584.png


Coming back to this thread and its value as a guide, as I've said several times above (including the conclusion of post #1), the subwoofer table represents a minimum subwoofer requirement in a room for a given maximum listening level. It does not provide a recommendation for the best possible listening experience.

I imagine once you get 3dB of dynamic headroom in your system the THD also falls to tiny levels and many people will have way more than this in practice. Remember that room gain is also likely adding a few dB to the figures in the table for sealed rooms so in a way headroom is already built into the figures.

Take my PB-3000s which in a 2,400Ft3 room are each +4dB capable at 20Hz. I have two so that's at least +8dB capable. I listen no higher than -15dB so that's 23dB of dynamic headroom right there and that doesn't even include any room gain which, at 20Hz, a few extra dB output is all but guaranteed.
 

kbfern

Distinguished Member
Like you say Mr Wolf headroom is king as if you have enough, distortion will NOT be an issue. It's only when driving your kit to the max is when things start sounding crap.
 

AndreNewman

Active Member
I think that the point is that it is something close to comparable figures.
Comparable levels but at a distortion level that I find worrying.


Yes, differing distortion levels.
Then they aren't really comparable.


And yes the other failing is the "where to measure" - particularly with products like the Arendal subs with funny placed ports.
That's another factor, I don't know anything about those issues.


The objective of the Wolf's table is more for this comparison. And, in reality, there mustn't be that many members looking at the table who listen even near to reference level. So, really it's talking about available headroom.
But that's exactly where it falls down if the data it's based on isn't truly comparable.

It's probably the best data available but I'm thinking it needs reading with a gritting lorry's worth of salt.

I don't see if any different to comparing projector light output in uncalibrated super bright mode vs comparing in calibrated mode.

Where's the CTA 2010 equiv at <5% THD that would be more akin to calibrated.


I'm going to have some power meters on my two subs soon, just report back on power consumption in film/TV peaks at certain MVs. A good indication, I think, of how much headroom we really have in such setups - I'm predicting with class D even typical film peaks may end up less Joules per second than an old fashioned light bulb! 🤣
Oh definitely, that power is used in short bursts, Edge of Tomorrow excepted, and the Power supply capacitors will smooth it all out.

Be careful with some of those plug in power meters, I had some issues with the supposedly 10A relays in two I tried, Shelly 1 PM and the very common TPLink. The relays were dropping out during heavy bass hits and power cycling the subs! Didn't sound nice, I added a 40A slave relay and not a problem since, doesn't measure the power any more those.
 

AndreNewman

Active Member
Frankly, I don't know and I understand your thinking. I do however think there is a lot more to this that you're inferring.

I hope so.

My understanding is that the acceptable distortion thresholds for each CEA-2010 test frequency were set based on research into what is audible in practice for most people.

James Larson has written about this a few times on Audioholics. This is worth a read if you want to find out more:

Total Harmonic Distortion (THD): Is It a Good Indicator of Sound Quality?

Thanks.
https://www.audioholics.com/loudspe...tortion-at-bass/total-harmonic-distortion-thd
Coming back to this thread and its value as a guide, as I've said several times above (including the conclusion of post #1), the subwoofer table represents a minimum subwoofer requirement in a room for a given maximum listening level. It does not provide a recommendation for the best possible listening experience.
I'm not dissing it's value.

With the measurements I'm doing on my system I would consider 10% distortion extremely concerning and that's in room with all the issues that raises.


I imagine once you get 3dB of dynamic headroom in your system the THD also falls to tiny levels
That's exactly my issue, I don't think there is any data to support this. Yes I would hope that's the case but I don't know that and I don't see any way to find out.

Maybe one sub is down to <1% with 3dB headroom, another is still 10% with 6dB headroom.

That could well be the case with a Class D amp compared to a Class AB.

Many subs have DSP to extend coverage or provide a house sound, this is effectively part of that THD measurement but hopefully a nice sounding form of distortion. How do I separate this from an underpowered amp that is going critical but adding the same percentage to THD.

and many people will have way more than this in practice. Remember that room gain is also likely adding a few dB to the figures in the table for sealed rooms so in a way headroom is already built into the figures.
Oh absolutely agreed.


Take my PB-3000s which in a 2,400Ft3 room are each +4dB capable at 20Hz. I have two so that's at least +8dB capable. I listen no higher than -15dB so that's 23dB of dynamic headroom right there and that doesn't even include any room gain which, at 20Hz, a few extra dB output is all but guaranteed.

Well that's a very very healthy margin but the charts don't call for 23dB of headroom.
I don't know how to compare how much headroom is enough for a particular subwoofer.

Like everything in this hobby, some compromises need to be made, just would be nice to put a proper number on it, once and for all.
 
D

Deleted member 901590

Guest
Then they aren't really comparable.

I should've elaborated my point about the comparable distortion. What I mean is that they have to be within a certain threshold for each measurement - but that still gives a different figure.

For example, results for the Mono 10" THX RMS at 2m at 20Hz are 101.8dB at 10.1%. For the 12" model they are 105.3dB at 9.5%.

And these are also an example of porting. The 10" has one port directly under the driver. The 12" has two ports under but offset to the driver.

The positioning of the microphone for the CEA test relative to the subwoofer has to be a relevance. But, in addition, your subwoofer position and the room and your MLP position are also surely affected by this too.

In other words (just my opinion) the best comparative test would be in a fixed rectangular room, with fixed sub and MLP positions, fixed wall, ceiling, floor materials. Sub orientation and distance from corner/walls as in operation instructions.

That's a much more expensive test!

When it comes to it, for everything we only have a loose indication of what it can do. Take power amplification for example. Yes, we all know about the (reasonably commonly followed) test for power. But, I bet you a 50w RMS per channel, 20Hz-20kHz, <0.1% THD could sound very different real world film watching if it had available 4,000 versus 20,000µF of capacitance per channel in a class AB amp - and that's not measured.

You've reminded me to comment on power amps now back to Wolfy. Even though no one believes Dobby's ears 🤣
 

Lesmor

Distinguished Member
As soon as you place the subwoofers in your room all bets are off
the room distortion wins every time
 

AndreNewman

Active Member
As soon as you place the subwoofers in your room all bets are off
the room distortion wins every time
Of course, the room distortion is hugely significant but the sub distortion doesn't go away, it's still there and added to the room distortion.

As the valve amp community teaches us not all distortion sounds the same, some can sound nice, some can sound awful. The only way to hear what the room distortion sounds like is to have a low distortion from the sub driving it.
 

Veloc

Member
Greetings everyone and happy new year!

I recently found this thread and it seems that a lot of work has been done, kudos to Mr.Wolf.
Hopefully you don't mind a neophyte like me asking here, but it seems weird to me that a 1900euros sub like the PB-3000 is placed at #9 whereas the 1723 2V which costs a whole lot more is #17.

May I ask what's the catch here? Yes, the PB-3000 has more output at 20Hz-31,5Hz, but at the ultra low frequencies the 2V is clearly a winner, even measuring 90,8dB's at 10Hz (at least on papers). Shouldn't those extremely low frequencies matter during movies? Or even the 40Hz and above ones?

I am no Arendal fanboy, don't get me wrong and to be honest I am in the market (Europe one only) for a new subwoofer for my ~2500ft3 dedicated room, not knowing what to get. Considering this awesome table, I should be fine (reference volume wise) even with the Funk Audio 18.0 or a "cheap" PB-2000, am I wrong?

Thanks again for the amazing work.
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
Greetings everyone and happy new year!

I recently found this thread and it seems that a lot of work has been done, kudos to Mr.Wolf.
Hopefully you don't mind a neophyte like me asking here, but it seems weird to me that a 1900euros sub like the PB-3000 is placed at #9 whereas the 1723 2V which costs a whole lot more is #17.

May I ask what's the catch here? Yes, the PB-3000 has more output at 20Hz-31,5Hz, but at the ultra low frequencies the 2V is clearly a winner, even measuring 90,8dB's at 10Hz (at least on papers). Shouldn't those extremely low frequencies matter during movies? Or even the 40Hz and above ones?

I am no Arendal fanboy, don't get me wrong and to be honest I am in the market (Europe one only) for a new subwoofer for my ~2500ft3 dedicated room, not knowing what to get. Considering this awesome table, I should be fine (reference volume wise) even with the Funk Audio 18.0 or a "cheap" PB-2000, am I wrong?

Thanks again for the amazing work.
Thanks for the feedback on the thread, I appreciate it.

Please don't misinterpret the table. It's not supposed to depict the winners of an "SPL drag race" or a "best sub league table". It's simply a ranking of measured clean(ish) 20Hz output under CEA-2010 testing. If it were a chest slam 50-70Hz league table, the PB-3000 might rank higher but then again so would many powerful sealed subs. If anyone thinks this would be useful let me know as I could easily add a second table for say 50Hz output.

Due to having two opposing drivers and a downward firing port, the Arendal 1723 2V's measured CEA-2010 output is likely to be understated as the test microphone is only in one position. Arendal actually mentions this on its website:

"Please note that our vented design is extremely difficult to accurately measure as the port and driver are on different planes. We are suffering some output on CEA-2010 measurements for this reason."

That said, the Arendal 2V it uses about the same size driver as PB-3000 but with a claimed 50% more RMS output amplifier powering the two drivers. If they had the same efficiency (which of course they won't) , you would normally only expect 1.5-2dB more output from that degree of power increase.

There's no catch with the PB-3000. The thing is that SVS deliberately used a lighter weight driver with a higher resonant frequency to differentiate it from the PB-4000. This, combined with a split wind voice coil, is what gives it relatively high output at frequencies >40Hz. This design choice came at the cost of <20Hz infrasonic output. I'm OK with that as there's very little content <30Hz in movies, that's why Dolby Atmos certified commercial cinemas are only specced top play to 31.5Hz at -3dB. Every now and then a movie comes along (like Edge of Tomorrow) that digs a lot deeper so for some this is important.

As I've said above, my own view is that if you're covering off audible sub-bass to 20Hz without distortion then you're pretty well set. Beyond that I would prioritise output headroom in the 50-70Hz range to maximum chest slam.

Whatever subs you decide to buy, go dual if you can. I truly would rather have two PB-1000 Pros in my room than one PB-3000 due to the more even response and lack of localisation.
 
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D

Deleted member 901590

Guest
To add to Mr Wolf's comment, this is probably a handy place to share.

To get an idea of the overall bass depth of a film, the BEQ Catalogue website is useful. Yes, it shows what the BassEQ does but it also shows the "before EQ". Quite an interesing picture with many films of the difference there can be between different soundtracks, e.g. the Atmos vs the DTS-MA. Here's a link:


Also, another interesting source if you want to deliberately experience some low frequencies, see the link in the post here:


Good news is that there are some kid friendly ones on there too. I tried the Ice Age one with the grandson over Christmas, there is some proper rumble action in it :)
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
I'm OK with that as there's very little content <30Hz in movies, that's why Dolby Atmos certified commercial cinemas are only specced top play to 31.5Hz at -3dB. Every now and then a movie comes along (like Edge of Tomorrow) that digs a lot deeper so for some this is important.

You wouldn´t get much love with this part of the post at US forums. 😄 People are spending crazy amount of money to get that high output below 20hz cause for many that is the addicting part. And we can already see lot of people are prefering the low tuned (12-13hz) ported subs to higher tuned (~20hz) ones when they have compared them, example with PSAs. So there must be more movies that have ULF stuff than you think (agreed that most stuff is lot higher), otherwise people wouldn´t be doing this and Tom V. wouldn´t been asked to design low tuned vented subs. This applies mostly for folks with dedicated rooms who can listen very loud.

Greetings everyone and happy new year!

I recently found this thread and it seems that a lot of work has been done, kudos to Mr.Wolf.
Hopefully you don't mind a neophyte like me asking here, but it seems weird to me that a 1900euros sub like the PB-3000 is placed at #9 whereas the 1723 2V which costs a whole lot more is #17.

May I ask what's the catch here? Yes, the PB-3000 has more output at 20Hz-31,5Hz, but at the ultra low frequencies the 2V is clearly a winner, even measuring 90,8dB's at 10Hz (at least on papers). Shouldn't those extremely low frequencies matter during movies? Or even the 40Hz and above ones?

I am no Arendal fanboy, don't get me wrong and to be honest I am in the market (Europe one only) for a new subwoofer for my ~2500ft3 dedicated room, not knowing what to get. Considering this awesome table, I should be fine (reference volume wise) even with the Funk Audio 18.0 or a "cheap" PB-2000, am I wrong?

Thanks again for the amazing work.
2x 1723 1V would be something to strongly consider over 2V as Wolf pointed out. This is assuming you have floorspace / free hands regarding placing them optimally in your theater room. That may not be the typical both subs on front wall/corners.

@DLxP just wrote "single 1V or 2V can hit reference at 20Hz in rooms 78m3 or under. To illustrate, 78m3 is about a 6m * 5m room, which is a pretty decent size by UK standards. And to reiterate, that's reference at 20Hz - they're putting out a lot more >30Hz."
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
You wouldn´t get much love with this part of the post at US forums. 😄 People are spending crazy amount of money to get that high output below 20hz cause for many that is the addicting part. And we can already see lot of people are prefering the low tuned (12-13hz) ported subs to higher tuned (~20hz) ones when they have compared them, example with PSAs. So there must be more movies that have ULF stuff than you think (agreed that most stuff is lot higher), otherwise people wouldn´t be doing this and Tom V. wouldn´t been asked to design low tuned vented subs. This applies mostly for folks with dedicated rooms who can listen very loud.
Hey, don’t shoot the messenger! I’m at least advocating (like THX) that we should focus on 20Hz upwards, Audioholics’ Bassaholic ratings only require reference level is required at 31.5Hz.

I think you have a very different definition to “lot of people”. I would think that PSA is a cottage industry niche for the infrasonic crowd which must in the scheme of things be a very small market. I also can’t get my head around why many movies would contain content that most commercial cinemas (and >99.9% of home owners) cannot reproduce.

One’s ULF preference surely also depends on what you’re watching. I’m not into the comic book stuff or sci-fi genres and mainly watch thrillers, war, action, crime, drama which by its nature is even less likely to have any ULF.

Anyway, each to their own. Even though I get a flat in-room response to 18Hz, I’ve recently added a very steep HPF at 20Hz and IMO it’s improved the chest slam so I’m heading in the other direction completely to the ULF community.
 

TB Rich

Active Member
You wouldn´t get much love with this part of the post at US forums. 😄 People are spending crazy amount of money to get that high output below 20hz cause for many that is the addicting part.
Ah Mr Gasp, I reckon you need to lay off the US forums for a bit, you're starting to speak like one of them! 😂

Sorry, I just hate this new trend of using the word addicting over additive (thankfully my kids have stopped it after my constant ranting!!!), don't know why - but's a proper pet peeve of mine!!! 😰
 
D

Deleted member 901590

Guest
I also can’t get my head around why many movies would contain content that most commercial cinemas (and >99.9% of home owners) cannot reproduce.

Agree. But I'm glad that they do! It will be a sad time for me if they stop doing it. I mean that list above in post 161 is not exhaustive at all and there are plenty there.

I wish that, rather than sources deciding to restrict low frequency range, it was the manufacturers of the TVs, soundbars etc that had to put filters in to protect their equipment.

Speaking of ULF, Supernatural that ran from roughly 2006 to 2020, is just one example of a non-film source that has quite a bit of content below 30Hz. As my old subs didn't cope that well with those frequencies, I find myself thinking "what's that funny noise?" before I realise it is a "mood effect" in the programme. As you've noticed, supernatural/paranormal type material makes good use of ULF as it generally is good to prepare your brain for the next 5h1t yourself moment!
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Hey, don’t shoot the messenger! I’m at least advocating (like THX) that we should focus on 20Hz upwards, Audioholics’ Bassaholic ratings only require reference level is required at 31.5Hz.

I think you have a very different definition to “lot of people”. I would think that PSA is a cottage industry niche for the infrasonic crowd which must in the scheme of things be a very small market. I also can’t get my head around why many movies would contain content that most commercial cinemas (and >99.9% of home owners) cannot reproduce.

One’s ULF preference surely also depends on what you’re watching. I’m not into the comic book stuff or sci-fi genres and mainly watch thrillers, war, action, crime, drama which by its nature is even less likely to have any ULF.

Anyway, each to their own. Even though I get a flat in-room response to 18Hz, I’ve recently added a very steep HPF at 20Hz and IMO it’s improved the chest slam so I’m heading in the other direction completely to the ULF community.

The same would apply to some larger JTRs aswell so not just PSA. In US they also have ton of 18-24" options for sealed subs and they are quite vocal about ULF. Finally the DIY crowd. You are probably right about the genre of movies will play important part as i can imagine some scifi/comic book flicks having more of this. @kenshingintoki knows as he talks often it. I do like good scifi, but the comic book movies i can´t stand. 😣 However as i said the ULF route would be those who can listen very loud in first place = have dedicated rooms so i wasn´t suggesting it for everyone. The guy who asked the question has dedicated cinema room.

Ah Mr Gasp, I reckon you need to lay off the US forums for a bit, you're starting to speak like one of them! 😂

Sorry, I just hate this new trend of using the word addicting over additive (thankfully my kids have stopped it after my constant ranting!!!), don't know why - but's a proper pet peeve of mine!!! 😰

It´s fair to point out that there is lot of folks who wouldn´t agree what Wolf said. ULF stuff can be addicting, ask @Conrad or the DIY guys here at AVF! Many don´t want or can´t go with the Hoover Boss route either.
 

DLxP

Distinguished Member
I’ve recently added a very steep HPF at 20Hz and IMO it’s improved the chest slam
I'd be very interested to read any thoughts about why the HPF would do that. Perhaps because the HPF is reducing the amp demands below the HPF frequency, so increasing power availability above the HPF?
 
D

Deleted member 901590

Guest
Yes that is interesting. So, similar to using the THX setting on the Monoprice Monolith models? Less work for the sub?
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
I'd be very interested to read any thoughts about why the HPF would do that. Perhaps because the HPF is reducing the amp demands below the HPF frequency, so increasing power availability above the HPF?
Yes, it's interesting. I really don't understand why it might do that.

TBH, I only tried adding the HPF because that's what the two popular Youtubers Home Theater Gamer (Brad) and Home Theater Gurus (Steve) prefer on their own systems and I was following their MiniDSP set-up and EQ guide videos. When I first set-up the MiniDSP I ignored that step in the videos as I assumed it wouldn't be needed.

Although all SVS ported subs have an HPF built into the DSP to help keep the driver under control, one theory I have is that I may have been getting some infrasonic distortion as every now and then I was getting what I would describe as strange wobbling sensations (with no sound). Anyway, as the FR of the PB-3000 falls off a cliff below 16Hz I don't think I'm giving up much with the HPF.

Another theory is that somehow the lower frequencies were acoustically masking the chest slam sensation. I certainly feel it's improved a bit since I reduced the slope of my House Curve.
 

DLxP

Distinguished Member
I may have to give that a go then! I'd definitely exchange <20Hz content for improved chest slam. As you say, there's not much content down that low, whereas with really good chest slam, it happens all the time.
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
I tried the sub sonic filter in the antimode think it's 10hz it did give me bit of extra output.

Using the lexicon mc-8 sub peak limit feature, enabling it allowed it too display louder dB on the front panel, listening to subwoofer, audible distortion took a few more clicks on the remote
 

Conrad

Moderator
Another theory is that somehow the lower frequencies were acoustically masking the chest slam sensation. I certainly feel it's improved a bit since I reduced the slope of my House Curve.

I believe it's this.

ULF wavelengths take a long time to decay and they can muddy the midbass if your timing isn't right or your low end is overpowering. It's why small subs got the reputation of being fast, they can't reproduce the notes that cause a poorly aligned sub to sound slow.

As for the volume of content, I'm not a marvel fan either, I watch a lot of thriller, horror and drama content. We've been on a war theme recently, coincidently: War Horse, 1917, Jarhead, Zero Dark Thirty, Hurt Locker. All have content well under 20Hz, most have content under 10. To be fair, Full Metal Jacket didn't have much.

They might not be what you mean by war movies, I guess.
 

Veloc

Member
Thanks for the feedback on the thread, I appreciate it.

Please don't misinterpret the table. It's not supposed to depict the winners of an "SPL drag race" or a "best sub league table". It's simply a ranking of measured clean(ish) 20Hz output under CEA-2010 testing. If it were a chest slam 50-70Hz league table, the PB-3000 might rank higher but then again so would many powerful sealed subs. If anyone thinks this would be useful let me know as I could easily add a second table for say 50Hz output.

Due to having two opposing drivers and a downward firing port, the Arendal 1723 2V's measured CEA-2010 output is likely to be understated as the test microphone is only in one position. Arendal actually mentions this on its website:

"Please note that our vented design is extremely difficult to accurately measure as the port and driver are on different planes. We are suffering some output on CEA-2010 measurements for this reason."

That said, the Arendal 2V it uses about the same size driver as PB-3000 but with a claimed 50% more RMS output amplifier powering the two drivers. If they had the same efficiency (which of course they won't) , you would normally only expect 1.5-2dB more output from that degree of power increase.

There's no catch with the PB-3000. The thing is that SVS deliberately used a lighter weight driver with a higher resonant frequency to differentiate it from the PB-4000. This, combined with a split wind voice coil, is what gives it relatively high output at frequencies >40Hz. This design choice came at the cost of <20Hz infrasonic output. I'm OK with that as there's very little content <30Hz in movies, that's why Dolby Atmos certified commercial cinemas are only specced top play to 31.5Hz at -3dB. Every now and then a movie comes along (like Edge of Tomorrow) that digs a lot deeper so for some this is important.

As I've said above, my own view is that if you're covering off audible sub-bass to 20Hz without distortion then you're pretty well set. Beyond that I would prioritise output headroom in the 50-70Hz range to maximum chest slam.

Whatever subs you decide to buy, go dual if you can. I truly would rather have two PB-1000 Pros in my room than one PB-3000 due to the more even response and lack of localisation.

I misinterpreted the table because I thought that if a subwoofer could reach reference levels in a room without audible distortion, then that's all you'd ever need. But it seems that there are many variables to the equation of a "Good Subwoofer" like the ULF, mid bass, how fast the sub is, delay, distortion etc. All those variables and the fact that different subs are using different mechanics/strategies to produce bass make things even more confusing. The cherry on top is that we don't know the sensitivity of the drivers and RMS/peaks are just "claimed". Some companies overexaggerate (see Klipsch sensitivities for example).

And then there's the pricing. SVS prices are higher in Europe whereas Arendals come straight from Norway and they're cheaper here. Some examples:

PB-1000pro: 900euros
PB-3000: 1900euros
PB-4000: 2900euros
1723 1V: 1700euros
1723 2V: 2800euros
And then there's a beast XTZ 3x12 which outperforms so many subs, at 2300euros. o_Oo_O

Arendal customer support also advised me to go with dual 1V instead of a single 2V. Don't you think that dual PB-3000 would be a better move for more headroom?

If you chose two PB-1000pros, then wouldn't you feel the need for more headroom? I'm currently using a PB-1000 (non pro) and I can hear a lot of port noise when a movie has bass lower than 25Hz or so. I won't forget that moment, when I was watching "Overlord". I suddenly could hear port and driver noise at the MLP (MV was at -25dB's). Same situation with "Quiet Place", "Aquaman" and the list goes on.

To add to Mr Wolf's comment, this is probably a handy place to share.

To get an idea of the overall bass depth of a film, the BEQ Catalogue website is useful. Yes, it shows what the BassEQ does but it also shows the "before EQ". Quite an interesing picture with many films of the difference there can be between different soundtracks, e.g. the Atmos vs the DTS-MA. Here's a link:


Also, another interesting source if you want to deliberately experience some low frequencies, see the link in the post here:


Good news is that there are some kid friendly ones on there too. I tried the Ice Age one with the grandson over Christmas, there is some proper rumble action in it :)

Interesting site, I searched "Aquaman" and checked the graphs there. May I ask what's the difference between the red and the green line? Thanks for sharing by the way. Nice to know that even Ice Age has noticeable rumble action.


You wouldn´t get much love with this part of the post at US forums. 😄 People are spending crazy amount of money to get that high output below 20hz cause for many that is the addicting part. And we can already see lot of people are prefering the low tuned (12-13hz) ported subs to higher tuned (~20hz) ones when they have compared them, example with PSAs. So there must be more movies that have ULF stuff than you think (agreed that most stuff is lot higher), otherwise people wouldn´t be doing this and Tom V. wouldn´t been asked to design low tuned vented subs. This applies mostly for folks with dedicated rooms who can listen very loud.


2x 1723 1V would be something to strongly consider over 2V as Wolf pointed out. This is assuming you have floorspace / free hands regarding placing them optimally in your theater room. That may not be the typical both subs on front wall/corners.

@DLxP just wrote "single 1V or 2V can hit reference at 20Hz in rooms 78m3 or under. To illustrate, 78m3 is about a 6m * 5m room, which is a pretty decent size by UK standards. And to reiterate, that's reference at 20Hz - they're putting out a lot more >30Hz."

Thanks for the help Gasp. It seems that the 1V is no joke either and it's 1100euros cheaper than the 2V, which makes it easier for everyone to gradually go for dual setup. Arendal customer support also suggested that I should go for dual 1V instead of a single 2V. Wouldn't dual PB-3000 be better or?


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Thanks everyone for the replies and all the help!
 

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