How much subwoofer output capability do you need in your system?

mfur

Standard Member
It has the wrong information now as in your sub at your couch where it isn´t anymore and if you moved it to front near mains then you need to recalibrate. Keep us posted how it sounds after. That Sony calibration should only offer 1 mic placement so it takes probably 5-10min max. Hope you have some tripod for the mic and do not keep it close to rear wall, at least 0,5meters away from walls at the MLP!
Performed measurements: did calibration before each measurement and repositioning of the sub.
Red position is original, near field one by the couch. Blue is potential location under front right speaker in corner.
Calibration determined 12dB difference between original and alternate positions for sub (original -6, alternate +6dB).
Measurements done without any real equipment by using smartphone mic (but it is not that bad from what I could find online) via app. Smartphone was in similar position than calibration mic at the MLP, 0.5m from wall.
I have to find a way to output signal clearly at sub only. As a quick workaround I set receiver in 2.1 mode, front speakers -10dB, crossover at 150Hz, and played sweep in "Portable" EQ settings, which outputs signal to sub.
Results are for sure very inaccurate, but should at least be comparable between one another. And I can hear what the results show - peak at ~47Hz and then zig-zag output levels - especially in alternate, blue position.
 

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saxlylong

Standard Member
Received my dual 12 Monoliths and played around with them the last couple evenings. All I have to say is: "WOW". Coming from a single low power 10" home theater package sub to these is like day and night. Now I have to play around with sub positioning and setting the system up properly. I just ordered a Cross Spectrum Labs CM-140 meter and plan on playing around with REW to get everything dialed in. It's gonna be fun!
 

Timh

Distinguished Member
Can anyone help?
My room is 4.6 x 4.8 x 2.4m with an open staircase leading up to a small landing.
I have owned the original Mk1 BK monolith from new and currently have it +5db above the main LCR speakers
it is also attached to an Antimode 8033.
I have always been pleased with the base but have never experienced chest slam in the 40-60Hz range that you seem to mention quite a few times.
Anyone know why or what I could do to change this?
Receiver is a Denon 4500 with all crossovers set to 80hz
I normally run between -10 to -15db

Thanks
 

Devil On Your S

Well-known Member
Is it just me, or does forum darlings BK Electronics, SVS (sealed), and Arendal lose out massively in this list? And Monolith Monoprice rules all!
 

belgiansound

Novice Member
Maybe a stupid question, but how do you calculate your room size if it is L shaped? The part if the L with the tv is only 4,5 x 5 x 2.6 meter or 59m3, and it is open to the living space of 10x4.5m and a small extra space of 3x6 m. The total is 222m3, and the chart only goes to 142m3? Should I count with 59m3? I don't need to feel the bass everywhere but I do loose a lot of pressure due to the open space.
 

diverdog

Active Member
Thanks for putting this together! Perhaps you could update the listing to the current model on this HSU?
CEA 2010 Measurements (1 Meter from woofer, Peak)

VTF-15H MK2 One Port Open:


Tone Burst Center Frequency (Hz)Maximum SPLCEA 2010 Rating
16111.3
20116.1
119.7​
25119.6
31.5123.5
40126.1126.2
50126.6
63125.9
80125.8
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
Thanks, I'll add it to the next update. Those are 1M peak figures not 2M RMS so will need to deduct 9dB from all of them. The 20Hz output becomes 107.1dB which will place it about 13th in the list which is very good.
 

roscopervis

Active Member
Can anyone help?
My room is 4.6 x 4.8 x 2.4m with an open staircase leading up to a small landing.
I have owned the original Mk1 BK monolith from new and currently have it +5db above the main LCR speakers
it is also attached to an Antimode 8033.
I have always been pleased with the base but have never experienced chest slam in the 40-60Hz range that you seem to mention quite a few times.
Anyone know why or what I could do to change this?
Receiver is a Denon 4500 with all crossovers set to 80hz
I normally run between -10 to -15db

Thanks
I think you need to consider extending that range up to 100 hz, part of what makes chest slam happens in the crossover region so you need to make sure that your main speakers are also contributing to the party.
 

Marshall Mike

Well-known Member

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
I'm wondering is where you think my current sub would fall within the table, so I can make sure i don't inadvertently step back the way?

Its a Velodyne SPL-1200 Ultra


Specs & size would put it close to JL Audio E112, still bit too risky to make assumptions without data cause the JL is quite a beast with 12" driver. 1200 Ultra rolls off quite steeply +20hz region. Driver, amp specs similar to old slightly smaller Velodyne DD12. I believe @Conrad owns the DD12 (plus couple others) and if the SPL 1200 Ultra is fairly similar performing to DD12 then he might have ideas for your future upgrade, that likely means 15-18" sealed options or 13-15" ported depending what you crawing..
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
@Mr Wolf I'm trying to look at potential sub upgrade choices, and your table has really helped. But what I'm wondering is where you think my current sub would fall within the table, so I can make sure i don't inadvertently step back the way?

Its a Velodyne SPL-1200 Ultra

It's really hard to tell as specs can be a very unreliable predictor. Frequency response specs are measured at an SPL level where a sub's output is conveniently linear so it doesn't correlate well with CEA-2010 output. e.g. SVS use a circa. 90dB sweep for the SB-2000 pro

The Velodyne specs indicate that your sub' f3 point is 21Hz which, in light of its large 1200W amp, suggests to me that it has been tuned relatively high compared to some other 12" sealed subs of today - e.g. SVS SB-2000 Pro and Arendal 1961 1S (both 550W and 12" drivers) have lower 19Hz f3 points.

So, based on maximum 20Hz output which is what the table's ranking is all about, I would expect it it to fall somewhere between #45 and #50. That said, its 31.5Hz uplift would probably be huge due to its power, probably at least 13dB.
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
@Mr Wolf Is it possible to include a DIY option in your list such as this? It would be interesting to see how it compares.

The table's ranking is based on CEA-2010 2M RMS output at 20Hz so that sub would sit around position #10-12 given its 108.2dB test figure.

No problem including DIY subs but I see that's a 2012 review. I think it's only worth adding subs (DIY or not) to the table if they're either one that someone might buy/make today or, if not, they were popular in their day so that current owners might know what to replace it with to get comparable (or better) performance. Is this still available and/or was it a popular model?
 

Marshall Mike

Well-known Member
Specs & size would put it close to JL Audio E112, still bit too risky to make assumptions without data cause the JL is quite a beast with 12" driver. 1200 Ultra rolls off quite steeply +20hz region. Driver, amp specs similar to old slightly smaller Velodyne DD12. I believe @Conrad owns the DD12 (plus couple others) and if the SPL 1200 Ultra is fairly similar performing to DD12 then he might have ideas for your future upgrade, that likely means 15-18" sealed options or 13-15" ported depending what you crawing..

It's really hard to tell as specs can be a very unreliable predictor. Frequency response specs are measured at an SPL level where a sub's output is conveniently linear so it doesn't correlate well with CEA-2010 output. e.g. SVS use a circa. 90dB sweep for the SB-2000 pro

The Velodyne specs indicate that your sub' f3 point is 21Hz which, in light of its large 1200W amp, suggests to me that it has been tuned relatively high compared to some other 12" sealed subs of today - e.g. SVS SB-2000 Pro and Arendal 1961 1S (both 550W and 12" drivers) have lower 19Hz f3 points.

So, based on maximum 20Hz output which is what the table's ranking is all about, I would expect it it to fall somewhere between #45 and #50. That said, its 31.5Hz uplift would probably be huge due to its power, probably at least 13dB.
Thank you both.

My room is under 2000 sq ft, but due to layout it has openings to a larger room on one side and the kitchen on the other, so the room isn't sealed. However, we are going to be relocating living rooms in the coming year to a room that will be sealed, again less than 2000 sq ft.

I was looking at the Monoprice THX 10, which seems to be recommended for a room of that size. What I can't get my head around is, will it outperform my Velodyne with a smaller driver and amp? It's also around a grand less than what I paid for the Velodyne. On the plus side, I could get two with the money I would (hopefully) make from selling the Velodyne.

I have yet to own a ported sub and I quite fancy trying one to see what its like for deep bass. As you pointed out Gasp, the Velodyne has quite a steep roll off under 20hz.

Sorry, but what's an f3 point?
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
Sorry, but what's an f3 point?
That's the frequency point at which a sub or speaker's frequency response is 3dB below its average at the low end. Think of it as the lowest frequency that it can play relatively flat. The problem is that FR specs are not a maximum output stress test like CEA-2010. So while your sub might be able to hit 21Hz at a fairly low SPL level to achieve that spec, it may in practice have very limited output capability at that frequency.

Re. the Mono 10" option, in your case I would proceed with caution and quote myself from post #100 above.

My view is this. Provided a sub has enough output headroom across the audible frequency range (20-120Hz) at your listening level to avoid distortion then it is a contender which is why I created the table in post #1 of this thread.

Once this minimum 20Hz SPL output requirement box is ticked, personally I would prioritise subs with the highest chest slam output in the 40-60Hz range as that's what gives a tactile response AND (unlike<30Hz) there is a tonne of LFE content there whereas there is almost none at 20Hz.

The chest slam factor isn't about how loud it goes in the 40-60Hz area, it's about how it goes loud. Subs calibrated to play flat may produce the same SPL peaks of say 105dB at -10 volume at 40-60hz but the sub with the most output headroom is likely to have more explosiveness delivery and more tactile punch if that makes sense. That's why the SVS 3000 series is so well regarded as (according to James Larson) the designer prioritised output in this area at the expense of some low end extension.

The table ranking is a guide to minimum sub requirements for a listening level in a given room size and no more. It not an indication of what is best for your application.

E.g. an 800W 13.9" SVS SB-3000 might rank below a Monoprice THX 10" in the table as, being sealed, it has less maximum output at 20Hz. But the port advantage falls away at higher frequencies so from say >40Hz where the elusive chest slam output lies the SB-3000 will have the advantage and would probably be more impactful in practice.

Dual subs is definitely the way to go though if you have the space and budget. A more even response no localisation are all but guaranteed.
 

gingerone

Well-known Member
That's the frequency point at which a sub or speaker's frequency response is 3dB below its average at the low end. Think of it as the lowest frequency that it can play relatively flat. The problem is that FR specs are not a maximum output stress test like CEA-2010. So while your sub might be able to hit 21Hz at a fairly low SPL level to achieve that spec, it may in practice have very limited output capability at that frequency.

Re. the Mono 10" option, in your case I would proceed with caution and quote myself from post #100 above.



The table ranking is a guide to minimum sub requirements for a listening level in a given room size and no more. It not an indication of what is best for your application.

E.g. an 800W 13.9" SVS SB-3000 might rank below a Monoprice THX 10" in the table as, being sealed, it has less maximum output at 20Hz. But the port advantage falls away at higher frequencies so from say >40Hz where the elusive chest slam output lies the SB-3000 will have the advantage and would probably be more impactful in practice.

Dual subs is definitely the way to go though if you have the space and budget. A more even response no localisation are all but guaranteed.
That’s a very good post , given that my room is actually under 1350 feet would the SVS SB 1000 Pro give me enough performance and more chest slam than the Monolith 10?

Or would the Monolith 10 still be a better option?
 

Ringnut

Distinguished Member
No problem including DIY subs but I see that's a 2012 review. I think it's only worth adding subs (DIY or not) to the table if they're either one that someone might buy/make today or, if not, they were popular in their day so that current owners might know what to replace it with to get comparable (or better) performance. Is this still available and/or was it a popular model?

Agreed, perhaps a 15" and 18" version of both a ported and sealed DIY sub?
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
That’s a very good post , given that my room is actually under 1350 feet would the SVS SB 1000 Pro give me enough performance and more chest slam than the Monolith 10?

Or would the Monolith 10 still be a better option?
Both would probably play loud enough for you in that size room in which case it would come down to a sealed vs ported thing. Personally, I'd go with the Mono 10" as I much prefer the sound of ported subs for movies - to me they're just way more realistic (e.g. explosions sound like explosions). If music was a priority then I'd lean towards the SVS but then again I've read that the Mono THX models are all really good with music which doesn't surprise me because so are my ported SVS PB-3000s. Unless you're a very critical music listener, I would go for the Mono 10".
 

gingerone

Well-known Member
Both would probably play loud enough for you in that size room in which case it would come down to a sealed vs ported thing. Personally, I'd go with the Mono 10" as I much prefer the sound of ported subs for movies - to me they're just way more realistic (e.g. explosions sound like explosions). If music was a priority then I'd lean towards the SVS but then again I've read that the Mono THX models are all really good with music which doesn't surprise me because so are my ported SVS PB-3000s. Unless you're a very critical music listener, I would go for the Mono 10".
Would I be missing out on slam with the THX 10?
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
Would I be missing out on slam with the THX 10?
Possibly, at 63Hz which I believe may be the closest frequency the SB-1000 has 6.3dB more dynamic headroom which at those frequencies is circa 2x the perceived loudness.

1641813784382.png


That said, for a movie based system I'd still take the Mono 10" THX for the greater output lower down and that tactile rumble that (in my experience) only a ported sub delivers on the LFE.

I actually have a SB-2000 (original 500W non-Pro version) in my living room system (2000ft3 room) but only because I have a dedicated HT room with two ported subs for movies. For music it's amazing but for movies I find it a bit lacking.
 

gingerone

Well-known Member
Possibly, at 63Hz which I believe may be the closest frequency the SB-1000 has 6.3dB more dynamic headroom which at those frequencies is circa 2x the perceived loudness.

View attachment 1633558

That said, for a movie based system I'd still take the Mono 10" THX for the greater output lower down and that tactile rumble that (in my experience) only a ported sub delivers on the LFE.

I actually have a SB-2000 (original 500W non-Pro version) in my living room system (2000ft3 room) but only because I have a dedicated HT room with two ported subs for movies. For music it's amazing but for movies I find it a bit lacking.
That’s really useful, thank you.
THX 10 it is then 😉
 

Mr AV

Active Member
Possibly, at 63Hz which I believe may be the closest frequency the SB-1000 has 6.3dB more dynamic headroom which at those frequencies is circa 2x the perceived loudness.

View attachment 1633558

That said, for a movie based system I'd still take the Mono 10" THX for the greater output lower down and that tactile rumble that (in my experience) only a ported sub delivers on the LFE.

I actually have a SB-2000 (original 500W non-Pro version) in my living room system (2000ft3 room) but only because I have a dedicated HT room with two ported subs for movies. For music it's amazing but for movies I find it a bit lacking.
Great info. For 2 x 10" monos, would that figure at 63hz increase by a few db, indeed 50-125hz? In relation to a single SB1000 pro.
 
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AndreNewman

Active Member
CEA-2010 output testing results are at the heart of this thread. If you're in any doubt as to the value of this testing method and its relationship with real world performance then I suggest you should read this Brent Butterworth article published last month on the audio industry website, AudioXpress.

I finally got chance to research CTA 2010 measurements and found the article you linked among many others.

I have to say I'm horrified at the acceptable distortion levels, 30% THD, seriously?
While one sub might not sound too horrible at 30% a different design might be totally horrendous at 10%. I don't see any way to know from these measurements which will be which.

If we have some measurements at a lower THD as well, perhaps it's possible to learn something?

A lot (most?) sub amps are Class D these days and usually Class D is extremely low THD until suddenly it's extremely high. In my experience Class D distortion sounds horrible and readily damages drivers and ears! I assume we are relying on the manufacturers to build nice progressive limiters so their subs can run well into distortion so they can publish impressive CTA 2010 tests?

I have to deduce that a CTA 2010 measurement has to taken as a measurement of extreme capability only and considerable headroom should be allowed if we want to hear pleasant bass rather than just lots of it?

Is this really the best the industry can come up with for a standardised test?
 

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