How much subwoofer output capability do you need in your system?

saxlylong

Standard Member
Hi! New user and first post.

I have been looking at a new subwoofer(s) for a little while now and this time of year seems ripe to jump on it. I was intrigued by @Dobbyisfree 's experience with the dual Monolith 10's.

My room is 20.5ft x 11.5ft, with a 7ft drop ceiling (1670 f^3). The one side has two hallways to other parts of the basement (one has a door, the other not), which may present a problem of pressurizing the space.

I currently have a Yamaha HTR-4065 receiver with an old Martin Logan MLT-2 system and the sub recently died on me. I have been pretty happy with it, but likely because of my ignorance of high-end audio. The goal is to get the bass finalized and upgrade the other components a bit later on. I have a 120" projector screen with dual loveseats w/ center consoles. The width of the seating seems to point to dual subs being the solution, except my budget of $1000ish does not lend to dual subs, except for something like the currently on-sale Monolith 10's. Would the dual 10's be plenty for the space? Or does the Monolith 12 (or other 12in equivalent) provide performance that even dual 10's can't produce (i.e. chest thumping as was said earlier)? I have also toyed around with the idea of going with a single 15, either HSU or the Monolith 15, but those may be absolute overkill for my space. I usually listen pretty loud, but don't have any raw data numbers to provide. The receiver is many times at 0db and I had calibrated the system with the on-board YPAO mic setup. Please let me know your thoughts.
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
Hi, welcome to the forum.

I would strongly advise going for a pair of smaller subs over a larger single sub due to less localisation and a smoother response at your listening seats. With a single you are almost certain to have a major null somewhere along the frequency response curve.

Re. SPL output, you can see from the maximum listening volume table in post #1 that a pair of Mono 10" THX subs should be plenty for your room. Yes, a pair of larger more power subs will likely have a more explosive delivery quality but if they're not within your budget then I wouldn't worry about it at all. Based on what you're coming a pair of those 10 inchers are going to sound great and they should be very easy to resell if you ever want to upgrade them down the track.

Re. the open doorway, yes it will reduce sound pressure but you should still have plenty of output. It's more likely to reduce room gain at low frequencies but as you can see the Mono 10" is a true 20Hz capable sub so this should be really missed.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Hi! New user and first post.

I have been looking at a new subwoofer(s) for a little while now and this time of year seems ripe to jump on it. I was intrigued by @Dobbyisfree 's experience with the dual Monolith 10's.

My room is 20.5ft x 11.5ft, with a 7ft drop ceiling (1670 f^3). The one side has two hallways to other parts of the basement (one has a door, the other not), which may present a problem of pressurizing the space.

I currently have a Yamaha HTR-4065 receiver with an old Martin Logan MLT-2 system and the sub recently died on me. I have been pretty happy with it, but likely because of my ignorance of high-end audio. The goal is to get the bass finalized and upgrade the other components a bit later on. I have a 120" projector screen with dual loveseats w/ center consoles. The width of the seating seems to point to dual subs being the solution, except my budget of $1000ish does not lend to dual subs, except for something like the currently on-sale Monolith 10's. Would the dual 10's be plenty for the space? Or does the Monolith 12 (or other 12in equivalent) provide performance that even dual 10's can't produce (i.e. chest thumping as was said earlier)? I have also toyed around with the idea of going with a single 15, either HSU or the Monolith 15, but those may be absolute overkill for my space. I usually listen pretty loud, but don't have any raw data numbers to provide. The receiver is many times at 0db and I had calibrated the system with the on-board YPAO mic setup. Please let me know your thoughts.

If in doubt go with the 12" model and add 2nd later if you can´t afford to buy two of them right away, 699$ is great price! People in US forum has compared both w/15" too and the 12" model is really the sweet spot for most people with better performance, not only does the 12" model give you more output in whole working range it has to do that even with lower distortion as the THX Ultra is much tighter requirement wise vs. THX Select (10"). Also the larger cabinet and two ports vs. one will be beneficial regarding possible port noises as you play 0db ref volume.

Personally i don´t see anything wrong in the buy one 15" now and add second later route either. We have members here at AVF who has two PB16Ultras in similar size of room than yours without openings, so it`s not like the two 15" Monos would be too much if you crave the most impact. But they are also very large so that is why the 12" seems to hit the sweet spot in many ways!

As the review said the 10" can´t give similar chest thump to 12" and James room what i remember is smaller than yours also. With subwoofers i would rather buy little bit more than you require. Would keep you sorted longer without eyeing upgrades cause there is often hunger for more..
 
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Dobbyisfree

Well-known Member
We watched the Half Blood Prince at -22dB and it was simply unbelievable (see Beq catalogue entry) personally I could not imagine wanting more than that.
However I think in this rare case 🤣 I agree with Gasp. If you're a super 0dB kinda person than I reckon buy bigger!
It's all about getting the right output for your listening levels, oh, and preferably within budget!
 

saxlylong

Standard Member
Thank you all for the quick responses. I am leaning towards going big with the Monolith 12, and may just go for broke and get both now, since the V1 seems to be on a "clearance" sale with the V2 being recently released. While it sounds like the dual 10's would be enough, I don't want to be left with any "what if's". Buy once, cry once. The wife may not like me, but I have always begged for forgiveness rather than as permission. I could tell her to go buy something for herself. Haha!
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
I am leaning towards going big with the Monolith 12, and may just go for broke and get both now, since the V1 seems to be on a "clearance" sale with the V2 being recently released. While it sounds like the dual 10's would be enough, I don't want to be left with any "what if's".
Good call. That was exactly my approach when I bought a pair of PB-3000s earlier this year. I'd concluded a pair of PB-2000 Pros would have been plenty so went one model up "just to be sure".
 

JKRsega

Active Member
Thank you all for the quick responses. I am leaning towards going big with the Monolith 12, and may just go for broke and get both now, since the V1 seems to be on a "clearance" sale with the V2 being recently released. While it sounds like the dual 10's would be enough, I don't want to be left with any "what if's". Buy once, cry once. The wife may not like me, but I have always begged for forgiveness rather than as permission. I could tell her to go buy something for herself. Haha!
The approach of ''You can get something nice for yourself darling'' has always worked well for my PC and SVS PB1000. Good lad!
 

steve sph

Well-known Member
Yep - my personal rule of thumb when buying subs, (or indeed any other item of A/V equipment), is - spend hours reading reviews/user feedback/specs/thinking will the wife kill me? before finally coming to an informed decision.
Then buy the next model up from the one you decided on, and make sure it's delivered while the wife is out.
In the unlikely event she does notice two more huge things in the living room that require dusting, buy her some Ferrero Rocher.
Hopefully she'll be on a diet so you get to eat them yourself.
 

saxlylong

Standard Member
Yep - my personal rule of thumb when buying subs, (or indeed any other item of A/V equipment), is - spend hours reading reviews/user feedback/specs/thinking will the wife kill me? before finally coming to an informed decision.
Then buy the next model up from the one you decided on, and make sure it's delivered while the wife is out.
In the unlikely event she does notice two more huge things in the living room that require dusting, buy her some Ferrero Rocher.
Hopefully she'll be on a diet so you get to eat them yourself.
Fortunately, this is a dedicated theater space in the basement. I already told her about it and she was fine with it. I told her that electronics are going up in price and buying some now and some later would likely be considerably more expensive. LOL.
 

saxlylong

Standard Member
Thanks everyone. The dual monolith 12's have been ordered and I even got 3.5% cash back. Can't beat that. I hope the XLR daisy chaining actually works with these, or I am going to be in trouble with only a single sub out on my receiver.
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
I hope the XLR daisy chaining actually works with these, or I am going to be in trouble with only a single sub out on my receiver.
You shouldn’t have any trouble. Most people with one sub output just use an RCA Y-splitter which is what I did until I got a MiniDSP 2X4HD.
 

saxlylong

Standard Member
One thing I just noticed is that SVS has the PB-2000 for the same Black Friday price as the Monolith 12. Is the PB-2000 any better? Preliminary searching seem like these are a wash, with the Monolith having more output and sounding "cleaner", but far better customer service with SVS. Thoughts?
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
One thing I just noticed is that SVS has the PB-2000 for the same Black Friday price as the Monolith 12. Is the PB-2000 any better? Preliminary searching seem like these are a wash, but far better customer service with SVS. Thoughts?

That is the old non Pro model so not as good. Even with the new 2000 Pro model it`s tight battle, Monoprice offers better extension and has small edge output wise (Erins comparison). Splitting hairs. Anyway i would keep the order in, but your call!
 

highdefinitely

Standard Member
The Monolith 12" is as good as the SVS PB-2000 Pro sound quality wise, which is a step up from the "old" PB-2000 (without the Pro).

If you can get the PB-2000 Pro for that price, it's a no brainer, as SVS does have a better customer service plus the app support and what have you.

The old PB-2000 is a good subwoofer, but purely from the sound quality perspective I'd prefer the Monolith 12".

I almost went for dual Monolith 12" myself, before a moment of craziness overcame me and I went for the 15" instead. The Monolith 12" is an absolute beast, best sub in its price bracket IMHO, especially at the current discounted price.
 

kbfern

Distinguished Member
I am in a bit of a conundrum I was going to get 2 x 10" THX from monoprice but the sale price was not as good as I was thinking it could be even though it is a decent price.

The XTZ 12.17 in gloss is on offer at the moment at around £486 ea all shipping and taxes paid so only about £30 more each than the 10" THX.

Can anyone give the views on which is likely to be better in my 2500 cu ft room for movies in particular.

I am even faced with a third option of a Rythmik F18 or an E15 but that would be as a single sub.

Over to you the experts please?


Gotta make my mind up this morning as stock may run out on any of these.

I was going 10" THX up till yesterday but just wondering what if??
 

kbfern

Distinguished Member
Just had a mail back from Mono to tell me that they have plenty of stock of 10" THX and they are not selling quickly. They have 200 pieces so can't see those all going anytime soon.
 

highdefinitely

Standard Member
Going by the CEA 2010 numbers that I've seen, the Monolith 10" should offer more (clean) SPL in the very deep bass range on 16-25Hz, despite the smaller driver. However, at the higher, yet also very crucial frequency range of 30-60Hz (so called "slam" of bass), the 10" Monolith lacks some punch in comparison to the XTZ 12.17 EDGE. The latter should offer more power in that range.

Hence, I personally would favour the XTZ 12.17 EDGE over the Monolith 10". While deep bass is fun, the actually audible range is more important for the perception of bass quality from my experience. And it's not like the XTZ can't go deep, just not as loud and clean as the Monolith can.
 

kbfern

Distinguished Member
I just had a reply from Mario regarding mine to him re ordering a pair of 12.17's in black so just deciding which to go for. He says their website does not include tax and duty so does that £486 price include any further invoice for tax/duty from the shippers or not as if that has too be added it is not such as good a deal for me as 2 x 10" THX at just under £900 total cost. Also see that they only have 15 left and they may be gone very soon and possibly by the time I may be able to order later today.


Hi,

"That is correct. Purchases to the UK from our website is not including tax and import duty so the courier will invoice you separately for that upon delivery.

I think it is better you order both at once. For what I can see the shipping charged on the website is a bit less for two pcs compared to two orders with just one sub on each.

Also, the are about to sell out very soon. At the time I'm writing this there is only about 15 pcs left, and we get new orders all the time now during the sale.

In terms of performance we haven't tested the Monoprice Monolith, but what we can tell you is that the 12.17 Edge has been compared to the SVS PB3000 in terms of SPL at 20 Hz, and it can potentially reach higher SPL than the SVS there. See the attached comparison from a large subwoofer test in the Swedish home cinema magazine HemmaBio.

I hope this helps.
 

kbfern

Distinguished Member
Going by the CEA 2010 numbers that I've seen, the Monolith 10" should offer more (clean) SPL in the very deep bass range on 16-25Hz, despite the smaller driver. However, at the higher, yet also very crucial frequency range of 30-60Hz (so called "slam" of bass), the 10" Monolith lacks some punch in comparison to the XTZ 12.17 EDGE. The latter should offer more power in that range.

Hence, I personally would favour the XTZ 12.17 EDGE over the Monolith 10". While deep bass is fun, the actually audible range is more important for the perception of bass quality from my experience. And it's not like the XTZ can't go deep, just not as loud and clean as the Monolith can.
Thank you for that info, just trying to find some output figures for the 12.17 so I can compare with the 10" THX to make my mind up between the two.

Anyone got them to hand please or a link. Trying to work as fast as I can as 12.17's will probably be gone sometime today. Fortunately 200 10" THX mono available so not so desperate to order till a bit later with those.
 

highdefinitely

Standard Member
I don't know how that magazine tested the sub, but there is no chance in hell that the XTZ 12.17 EDGE can be compared to the SVS PB-3000 at 20Hz.

Official XTZ CEA 2010 numbers of the Cinema 1x12 (the 12.17 EDGE should be very similar, if a slightly bit lower):

cinema_1x12.jpg


SVS PB-3000 measured by Audioholics (2m distance):

svs_pb-3000.png


Don't get me wrong, the 12.17 EDGE is a good subwoofer, especially at the current price. But the SVS PB-3000 is on a completely different level when it comes to max. SPL and deep bass performance.
 

kbfern

Distinguished Member
I agree I thought the comparison with the PB3000 was way off🤔

Thanks for the CEA figures
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
My view is this. Provided a sub has enough output headroom across the audible frequency range (20-120Hz) at your listening level to avoid distortion then it is a contender which is why I created the table in post #1 of this thread.

Once this minimum 20Hz SPL output requirement box is ticked, personally I would prioritise subs with the highest chest slam output in the 40-60Hz range as that's what gives a tactile response AND (unlike<30Hz) there is a tonne of LFE content there whereas there is almost none at 20Hz.

The chest slam factor isn't about how loud it goes in the 40-60Hz area, it's about how it goes loud. Subs calibrated to play flat may produce the same SPL peaks of say 105dB at -10 volume at 40-60hz but the sub with the most output headroom is likely to have more explosiveness delivery and more tactile punch if that makes sense. That's why the SVS 3000 series is so well regarded as (according to James Larson) the designer prioritised output in this area at the expense of some low end extension.
 
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