How much subwoofer output capability do you need in your system?

AndreNewman

Active Member
Kenshington is selling Mono+ and John24ssj also but the finish was bit special (mahogany). Naturally best to stick with three Monos than mix S1500. @Ultrasonic bought the PSA S1500 after Mono and it was quite bit better in many ways, not sure what you think of it. However it would be very hard to find few extra S1500 as they rarely come available used, unless @Topmetom 2 decides to upgrade.
kensington is a 4 hour drive away for me (and don't have spare fuel right now) so I'll wait for a more local one.
I'd want black or a tatty one and I'll paint it, I missed a couple in the classifieds over the last couple of months due to me dithering.

I wasn't ever planing to mix in the PSA, it was just a loan to test sealed against ported in my room.
That said I had some success with a 20Hz crossover from the Monolith to the PSA, no port phasing issues and just using the PSAs low extension, bit of a waste but an interesting experiment.

The PSAs are interesting but out of budget for me to buy new.
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
Just updated the ratings table to include the following subs. Most are earlier Audioholics' CEA-2010 measurements by Josh Ricci but the bottom four budget subs came from Erin's Audio Corner. The output of these cheap subs shows why it's worth spending a bit more.

1632918123612.png


The XTZ 3X12 is the biggest hitter at its price point with similar output to the Mono 13" THX. It would be good to get some data on other XTZ subs.
 

Dobbyisfree

Well-known Member
(Banter alert!)

So, I get the explanation behind it. Add roughly 4dB for doubling of subs.

So, for example, a 3000 cubic feet room. -32dB at 20Hz for Polk PSW10.

Two gives -28dB.
Four gives -24dB.

128 PSW10s would match ONE PB-1000 Pro in that same room.

Does that not seem a bit weird. Aside from the technical difficulty of fitting in 128 subs (and the fact that it would affect the acoustics, e.g. the volume of room left!) it just seems bizarre.

The output of these cheap subs shows why it's worth spending a bit more.

But, aside from me talking total bull (again), the Monoprice THX 10" seems to really be a proper bargain. I mean all of the Monoprice stand out but that one in particular. Take our room for example, closest is 2750 cubic feet. We only "need" about -20dB but with two subwoofers. If you use that chart alone, the cheapest way to achieve this is two THX 10" even though that would give a vast headroom. All the subs between number 28 and number 47 are dearer.

I get that this must be mostly because not enough sub manufacturers publish CEA-2010 results. But what it does say is that there should be, in the market somewhere, two subwoofers that should be about £200-£250 each that would more than fulfil 20Hz at our listening level.

Yet there is no way of finding out what they are. And the sad thing is that maybe two BK XLS200 (or even two Gemini 2s) would do this but we don't know the numbers :)
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Just updated the ratings table to include the following subs. Most are earlier Audioholics' CEA-2010 measurements by Josh Ricci but the bottom four budget subs came from Erin's Audio Corner. The output of these cheap subs shows why it's worth spending a bit more.

View attachment 1578466

The XTZ 3X12 is the biggest hitter at its price point with similar output to the Mono 13" THX. It would be good to get some data on other XTZ subs.

You can add the PSA XS-15SE too which i posted last page, it will be close to S1500. :)

I have got XTZ 1x12 Cinema measurements, but put (500w) as there is now the Edge version out which is 700w amp.

1x12 Cinema.png
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
@Mr Wolf and here is the old SVS PB1000. You can put (10") so people know it`s the old one. These figures are directly from SVS.

These values are 2 meters ground plane dB RMS using Don Keele’s software and a professionally calibrated test rig.

16 Hz 91,9 dB Y

20 Hz 99,8 dB Y
25 Hz 102,9 dB Y
31,5 Hz 104 dB Y

40 Hz 107,4 dB X
50 Hz 109,5 dB X
63 Hz 109 dB Y

80 Hz 108,4 dB Y
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
@Mr Wolf here is the legacy Arendal 1723 subwoofers which had HPF set around 17hz and due to this they were quite limited output wise below 25hz. Add at least the Sub 3 cause it´s so popular within AVF members. Sub 1 and Sub 2 = sealed. Sub 1,5 and Sub3 vented.

cea2010legacy1723-REDACTED.png
 

sm1ggsy

Active Member
Cool thread mr wolf , this has me thinking if 2 bk xls200 will do the job in my 13x13 x7.5 feet room, i only listen no louder than -25 that’s loud to us ,Ive had a bk12 300sb before that hit 18hz maybe I should have kept it and bought another instead of monolith 12
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Cool thread mr wolf , this has me thinking if 2 bk xls200 will do the job in my 13x13 x7.5 feet room, i only listen no louder than -25 that’s loud to us ,Ive had a bk12 300sb before that hit 18hz maybe I should have kept it and bought another instead of monolith 12

Why not add another Mono 12? It`s very much different product to sealed P12 which would hit about 90db at 20hz, where as Mono 12 - 106db measured and the overall feeling as you should know by now should be VERY different with certain type of movies, assuming it´s placed optimally and setup correct.

XLS200 would be questionable move. Few members have updated that to SB1000 and it has been noticeable upgrade for movies. Very close size wise.
 

sm1ggsy

Active Member
Thanks gasp,oh yeh mono hits really hard but I’m not to bothered about to much impact feel ,I Should have said it’s a price thing, money really tight because of Covid , I’ve only the the option to sell monoprice and add a bit more to fund it that way, this is all down to my wife she has decided to sit on the same sofa as me now so I need a better response 2 subs, could possibly get 2 svs sb1000 pro but I hear the price is going up
 
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Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Thanks gasp,oh yeh mono hits really hard but I’m not to bothered about to much impact feel ,I Should have said it’s a price thing, money really tight because of Covid , I’ve only the the option to sell monoprice and add a bit more to fund it that way, this is all down to my wife she has decided to sit on the same sofa as me now so I need a better response 2 subs, could possibly get 2 svs sb1000 but I hear the price is going up

Oh such a shame to sell great product. :( I wouldn´t go to XLS200 size though (10" drivers, 35hz -3db measured). AVO has few of the old SB1000 still available, however they haven´t drop the prices at all still 519£ which is strange. If they would drop to 400£ each then you could get two of them, but with money being tight not sure if possible..
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Thanks, are those 2m figures RMS or peak?

The colourfull official CEA2010 graph for PSA is referenced to 2m RMS as it says on top.

For XTZ i don´t know. If peak then they would be 3db higher than RMS. Shame they don´t say.
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
128 PSW10s would match ONE PB-1000 Pro in that same room.

Does that not seem a bit weird. Aside from the technical difficulty of fitting in 128 subs (and the fact that it would affect the acoustics, e.g. the volume of room left!) it just seems bizarre.
4dB is just a conservative estimate. Stacking them would get 6dB per doubling so eight stacked in four corner pairs would get you at least 14dB more. REW sweeps in my room show that I get between 4dB and 6dB of extra output summation from my pair of PB-3000s depending on the frequency.

It's not weird, it's just that those small low powered subs aren't really designed to reproduce 20Hz for home cinema applications. Notice how the Polk's 31.5Hz uplift is 20dB - that's massive. Use it for music at moderate listening levels and it'll be fine.

But, aside from me talking total bull (again), the Monoprice THX 10" seems to really be a proper bargain.
All the Monoprice subs are good value but, yes, the 10" version at £400 is a steal. A pair of those would have most people's needs covered.

EDIT: Just noticed the price has been increased fo £500 - will amend on next update. Still a good deal although personally I’d take a PB-1000 Pro for £75 more.

I should stress that getting extra output/headroom through multi-sub summation doesn't increase the explosiveness like having a more powerful sub does. You effectively just get more of the same. The subwoofer101 guy on Youtube explains this concept well.
 
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steve sph

Well-known Member
Great thread -cheers Mr Wolf for going to all the trouble.
I've got twin SVS SB3000's and can't see me ever needing any more headroom.

unless I hear something better, in which case all bets are off
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
Great thread -cheers Mr Wolf for going to all the trouble.
I've got twin SVS SB3000's and can't see me ever needing any more headroom.

unless I hear something better, in which case all bets are off
Thanks, yes they‘re awesome subs and a pair of them woukd be plenty for most systems as the table shows. The mahoosive 40-60Hz chest slam of the 3000 series still makes it the sweet spot of the SVS range for me…but of course I’m very biased.
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
Would buying a sb3000 to pair with sbu13 be a bad idea?
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Would buying a sb3000 to pair with sbu13 be a bad idea?

I`m fairly sure Ed Mullen from SVS said it is possible as the FR is very similar, but there is performance difference about 3db at 35-30hz to 20hz and bit more the lower it plays. But could you perhaps compensate this by having the "lesser" SB3000 closer to listener and SB13U being further? Also corner loading / boundary gain can be usefull if there is optimal spot available closer. Doubling the distance means about 3db SPL fall off in real rooms so bringing the smaller one closer? You can easily ask from SVS via email, Ed Mullen is more wiser just put he´s name in the email headline so you will get answer from him directly and not the sales people. Ed has ~30years experience with subs, guy that always responds. One of the reasons people go with SVS, support is amazing.

AVO has new refurb SB3000 for 1147£, two in stock. These don´t have any marks what members have reported over long period of time and full warranty so easy savings here.
 

Dobbyisfree

Well-known Member
The results of the 12" Monoprice model 9723 can be seen here, under "full specs" but they are at 1m so not sure how useful that is?

Also, for price, @AmericanAudio is this something that is available? If not, it's probably not worth adding to the chart, unless someone has a boat.

 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
The results of the 12" Monoprice model 9723 can be seen here, under "full specs" but they are at 1m so not sure how useful that is?

Also, for price, @AmericanAudio is this something that is available? If not, it's probably not worth adding to the chart, unless someone has a boat.

Dirt cheap, but i don´t think it`s available in UK. Designed by different team than the THX range so the build and sound quality can be anything, also uber cheap amp.. Wouldn´t touch it.

You would need to take 9db off from those figures and then can compare to others which are shown as 2m rms.
 

vm1451

Active Member
How accurate do you think the Arendal figures are? Interesting that the smaller, (sealed), models are sort of in reverse order to how you would expect them to be and seem quite a lot higher in the table than the SVS, (SB2000), equivalent. Even above the SB3000!
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
How accurate do you think the Arendal figures are? Interesting that the smaller, (sealed), models are sort of in reverse order to how you would expect them to be and seem quite a lot higher in the table than the SVS, (SB2000), equivalent. Even above the SB3000!
Apart from the 1723 2V all the Arendal figures are from Arendal's website so they're unlikely to be understated. The 1723 2V was recently tested by Audioholics and at 20Hz it measured 1.4dB below Arendal's own (website) rating. Where available, I've chosen to use independent measurements.

If you look at their maximum output across all frequencies, apart from the 4000 and 16-Ultra series, you'll see that SVS subs tend to be tuned to have far more output in the 40-60Hz chest slam region compared to many other models. The 3000 series particularly so which nearly hits 120dB here and this output headroom will contribute significantly to the impact of the sub in use.

That said, it doesn't change the validity of these ratings as 20Hz output is still the limiting factor on the maximum volume setting if audible distortion is to be avoided as I explained in the first post.
 

vm1451

Active Member
It just seems odd that there is very little difference between the 1961 1s and the 1723 1s considering these are manufacturers figures. Using those figures as a guide, why would anyone pay considerably more for the 1723 when you can get nearly the same performance from the 1961?

Of course it is more than possible that I am misunderstanding what I'm reading: other threads may or may not prove this theory!!

Interesting table non the less and thank you for taking the time to compile it.
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
Using those figures as a guide, why would anyone pay considerably more for the 1723 when you can get nearly the same performance from the 1961?
As I've said, 20Hz output is only one aspect of a sub's performance and once you've found a sub that achieves your minimum requirement at 20Hz I would look to other factors. The 1723 1S has significantly more output higher up.
1633073555845.png
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
Table updated to include the following subs:

1633077134485.png


Amazing to see the original 300W 10" PB-1000 sitting one row below the SB-16 Ultra. It just shows what a port brings to the party at 20Hz. Still a few available at £449 I believe which is a great bang for the buck.
 

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