Question How much has low-light performance improved in the past decade? (eg Canon HV30 vs Panasonic HC-V770)

Discussion in 'Camcorders, Action Cams & Video Making Forum' started by alanmic2003, Apr 20, 2017.

  1. alanmic2003

    alanmic2003
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    Hey guys!

    My Canon HV30 camcorder (which I bought in 2008) has finally died. I loved this camcorder, particularly for its performance in low light situations. I'm now faced with the choice of either replacing it with another HV30 off eBay, or buying a brand new camcorder such as the Panasonic HC-V770.

    My main question is, how much better do newer camcorders perform in low light situations? The HV30 was awesome for its time. Are modern camcorders pretty much equivalent, or just slightly better, or amazingly better? I often shoot in dark conditions (e.g. churches) and even though I love the HV30 I still found myself wanting a bit less noise in the darker areas.

    (And yes I'm aware of all the other benefits a newer camcorder will bring, such as H264, WiFi connectivity, etc, but honestly it's nothing I absolutely need. I'm perfectly happy with my current HDV-based workflow.)

    Does anyone have any thoughts?

    Thanks in adance!

    Alan
     
  2. Terfyn

    Terfyn
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    Writing as the owner of the 750 (the one before the 770) I find the low light performance very good. Last week I suffered a trip on a ghost train at Folly Farm near Tenby (courtesy of my dear granddaughter) As expected it was totally black except for the "ghosts". The 750 caught all the lit areas and I managed to produce a useable video. I needed to use the "brightness" option on my video editor to lift the picture but, once done, the quality was remarkably good and showed little sign of graininess.
    I don't suppose the older cameras would give such a good picture without a lot of noise from the video amps. The point is that all the information was there and just needed a little help from the video editor to give a clear picture. I have found this previously with the 750 when filming in low light conditions.

    Oddly enough I had the Canon HV20 before I moved to Panasonic and, yes, it was a lovely camera but I worried about the long term reliability of the tape mechanism plus the newer PC I needed for running a video editor did not have a FireWire connector built in. ( I had a FireWire card added)
    I moved to the HC-V700 and then to the 750 and have not regretted it, using SD cards is a doddle compared to tape and time code, all the shots are in their own individual files and can be manipulated much more easily.
    My suggestion is go for the 770.
     
  3. rogs

    rogs
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    One good indicator of potential low light performance is sensor size.

    The HV30 had a 1/2.7" sensor , which translates as an area of 21.7mm2

    The HC-V770 has a sensor size of 1/2/3" - which translates as an area of 29.73mm2

    So you would expect the V770 to be a little better than the HV30 in low light - although it's not likely to be a really big difference.

    The V750 that Terfyn describes above has a similar sensor size to the 770, and - as he reports - the low light performance is quite satisfactory....
     
  4. alanmic2003

    alanmic2003
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    Thanks Terfyn, that's very useful! Yeah I am definitely leaning towards the 770. And you're right, the mechanics involved in the HV30 are definitely prone to failing. If I get a used HV30, who knows how close it may be to dying?

    You're in a unique position in that you've owned the predecessors to each of these two cameras, i.e. the HV20 and the 750. I was actually hoping there would be someone like you on this forum! :) Do you happen to remember if you specifically noticed a better picture when you upgraded from the HV20 to the 750? Or was it more a case of "business as usual" with just a different camera?

    Thanks again...!

    Alan
     
  5. alanmic2003

    alanmic2003
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    Thanks Rogs for your reply too. It's funny, I was just researching the sensors myself! Not only is the sensor slightly bigger on the 770, but it's also a back-illuminated (BSI) sensor, meaning there should be an even further improvement in low light performance. However it's difficult to get hard facts on just how much of an improvement BSI sensors are versus non-BSI sensors. It may be mostly marketing hype. (Or not, I don't know. :))

    Thanks,
    Alan
     
  6. Terfyn

    Terfyn
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    On the HV20, the picture quality was not just a function of the camera but also the tape and the condition of the tape heads. On the 750 this is not a concern.
    I always record in AVCHD 1080/50p and find the picture very satisfactory for HD. Sadly it has been a long time since I watched any video from the HV20 so comparison is difficult. I do not believe you will see any degradation in quality with the 770, as rogs explained you have a bigger sensor plus a decent lens system and better processing software in the camera.
    Don't dismiss the "extras" you get with this camera. I use the Smartphone App on occasion to remotely control the camera and have used the Slow Motion option as well.
    One of the unseen benefits is that the camera uses a USB charger to re charge the battery. This means that the camera can be run and recharged from any USB source. So in car charging is possible and I also use an external battery pack (sold to recharge mobile phones etc.) as a backup.

    Audio is quite good for general filming. Panasonic have tried (not always successfully) to reduce wind noise with the on board mics. I tend to use external mics of various types. I noticed with the HV20 that the on board mics picked up any operator generated noise (heavy breathing) so I stopped using the EVF and tended to use the screen. There is no EVF on the 770 but the screen is so good that I have never had any problem viewing the picture even in bright sunlight. (You get used to it)
    One additional advantage of the external mic socket is being able to record from a line output (headphone out or AUX out) by using an attenuator in the line from the external source to the camera. I use a SESCOM attenuator lead which reduces a line output to a level suitable for the external mic input to the camera.
     
  7. dosdan

    dosdan
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    I've got a V750 & V770. These have BSI (Back-Side Illuminated) sensors. BSI improves efficiency. With the improvements in Fill-Factor due to better microlenses on top of each pixel, the Quantum Efficiency of these modern sensors will be significantly higher than what was in use in 2008. Also ADC noise performance and speed moved forward during that period.

    Remember that HDV used non-square pixels. I think the HV30's top resolution will be [email protected] Full HD on these Panansonic models is [email protected] The Full HD image will have better horiz. res and it's not interlaced so the vert. res will be crisper and look better particularly if there's any panning motion.

    Also modern camcorders, with their more powerful image processors, use adaptive spatio-temporal noise filtering ("3DNR") so the LL stuff looks cleaner and not blotchy, but there will also be lower effective sharpness in these LL situations.

    With tape, the transfer from Camera->PC was in real-time (1x). I use Sandisk Extreme Pro 64GB cards that have effective read speeds of about 85MB/s if I pop the card out of the cameras and use a ext. USB3 card reader. When using the highest bitrate that these models offer (50Mbps), the transfer rate is about 16x: 1m32s to transfer 25m of clips (two .MP4 files totalling 7.9GB). With 28Mbps clips, which are still [email protected], the transfer-speed ratio would be even higher.

    Then you have the reliability issue: the tape loading mechanism and the rotary drum is complex. I've had issues over the years with clogged-head dropouts and with audio-track mistracking when tapes were recorded on one DV camcorder and played back on another. I needed to due this because at one stage I had a faulty firewire port on my PC, which blew 3 of the 4 firewire ports in my camcorders, until I worked out what was happening. This left me with 1 camcorder port working which I had to use for all transfers to the PC.

    Also these Panasonic V-series camcorders can be run from an ext. 5V USB power source. You can charge them from most USB chargers, with the supplied adapter lead. And you can record for hours with a portable USB battery pack plugged in.

    These cameras are lighter than the HV30 (353g vs 535g) which may be important if you hand-hold often.

    Be aware though that these cameras don't have a viewfinder, whereas the HV30 does. Also H.264 AVC, while nowhere near as demanding as H.265, uses higher compression than MPEG-2 HDV, and requires a more modern PC for editing than HDV's MPEG-2.

    Dan.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  8. alanmic2003

    alanmic2003
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    Hey guys!

    Thank you so much for all that detailed information!! Really appreciate hearing all these thoughts and considerations. (Dosdan, lot of excellent facts in your post! And Terfyn, that's a good point about the remote control, I could see that being handy!)

    One thing I've noticed about the 770, and in fact all modern camcorders: It appears most of the connections are where the LCD screen folds to, meaning the viewfinder has to be open if you're doing any external connections with the camera. For example, if I'm using the HDMI output (which I may want to do on occasion) it means keeping the viewfinder open, which may be a bit distracting to people. But hey, I guess that's what black cloths are for! :)

    Regardless though, it does seem pretty likely that I'll be getting the 770...

    Thanks again,
    Alan
     
  9. Terfyn

    Terfyn
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    This is a problem - be it a minor one. It is more frustrating that the external mic socket is also under the LCD, I think on newer cameras it is paired with the "headphone out" on the RHS of the camera.
    Remember that the LCD can be rotated so can be positioned not to be in view from the rear of the camera. When I use HDMI into my TV it is easy to ignore the LCD.

    The SmartPhone App controls both the start/stop function and the zoom lens in both video and still mode, plus it will control the VW-CTR1 pan/tilt head. This bit of kit is quite useful for remote (nature) filming as you can pan the camera through 180deg and tilt +- 15deg remotely. So the camera can be set on a tripod and controlled from a hide. The CTR1 has a number of other functions such as a "follow me" using the camera recognition feature.
     
  10. 12harry

    12harry
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    Modern sensors are a huge improvement over older technologies and the elimination of the mechanical tape drive is a further benefit. However, with newer camcorders and 4K there is a possibility that lenses are also improved.... whereas HD used ~2Mpx frames, 4K is about 8Mpx, so I'd expect the lenses ( on 4K), to be superior . .. reading the Specs it seems many Mfrs have reduced the Zoom-range; this may be an indication too.

    alanmic2003 suggested he's doing a lot of church-interiors . . . (which have improved with the introduction of LED lighting) - but I wonder that he's not considered a mirrorless camera? - most of these are fairly good with Video and you should be able to buy large-aperture lenses for the interiors . . . of course changing lens part-through is somewhat inconvenient compared with using a Camcorder zoom, but it's just a thought . . . PLUS it would provide excellent Stills for publicity, sales to friends/relatives etc. Where many Stills cameras fail is in Audio, but a modest "Zoom Audio Recorder" ( £70-Maplins) should allow the recorder to be placed ( with permission) close to the action, even if the viewing is distant.

    Let us know what you buy - and how it suits yr work, in practice.
     
  11. Terfyn

    Terfyn
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    I don't think the problem is dim interiors. As I have mentioned above the 750/770 will perform well in low light. The main problem will be the lack of definition in the very dark recesses. (roof areas for example)
    There are, of course, two types of church filming. Visiting a church to film the architecture or filming a service for viewing by people who cannot attend. ( I wonder if alanmic2003 could clarify) For filming the church interiors, I would suggest a LED photo light (used with church authority permission) would be more useful as the extra lighting will increase the definition better than a larger lens. I use a Neewer LED308 which, as suggested, has 308 very bright LEDs, these lights can be remotely controlled and allow a wide range of brightness (25% - 100%) and colour temperature range from 3300k to 5600k.
    Filming a service should be no problem for the 770 as, I have found, they perform well in reasonably lit interiors (if you can read the hymn book you can film;)) but a good video editor would make all the difference. Audio is the big problem in this case and Harry's suggestion of a separate audio recorder would work the best.
     
  12. alanmic2003

    alanmic2003
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    Hey guys,

    Thanks for the continued discussion! I have thought about getting a DSLR, but honestly I think it's a bit overkill for the simple videos I do, not to mention somewhat out of my price range. At this point I've pretty much settled on getting the Panasonic HC-V770 -- Unless of course there are any other last-minute suggestions? (Would have to be something cheaper than the V770 but with equivalent performance, so probably not likely.)

    Most of my filming is stuff like church choirs and productions (Christmas plays, etc). Nothing I can really control the lighting on, but that's fine.

    As for the "lack of definition in the very dark recesses", I know exactly what you mean! Since I was already reasonably happy with the HV30, and since we've determined that the V770 is certainly better in that regard, I think I'll be fine.

    Cheers,
    Alan
     
  13. Terfyn

    Terfyn
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    You should have no trouble filming in these conditions. I have filmed indoors with only ambient light and had excellent results. Obviously a choral concert in candlelight would cause problems. I do suggest, if you don't already have one, you get a decent video editor to help "lift" the picture and give control over the resulting video.
    Sound is always a problem especially in older churches. The 770 mics will (as with all on board mics) pick up all the noise and echo. They have a limited zoom capacity but it will not filter out extraneous noise. I guess you have had experience of this from previous performances. If you can get a decent audio recording then it is an easy task to sync up the good recording with the camera audio in a video editor. A "line out" from the church audio system through the SESCOM attenuator into the camera will also give good results.

    I've pretty much settled on getting the Panasonic HC-V770 -- Unless of course there are any other last-minute suggestions.
    It is more a case of price range. All the cameras from the main manufacturers will have equivalent performance and options. I moved to Canon and then Panasonic from Sony Hi-8 because I found that Sony tried to tie its customers into buying their own kit.
    In my case Panasonic gave me more flexibility to add third party accessories. For example I occasionally use a wide angle lens. The Neewer 0.45x add on lens works perfectly. Panasonic's own batteries are notoriously expensive but, because the Panasonic uses 5V USB charging sources, I can run or recharge the camera from, in my case, an AUKEY 20,000mAh USB battery pack. I also use a range of third party mics, lavalier, small shotgun and wireless. All work fine with my 750.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2017
  14. alanmic2003

    alanmic2003
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    Thanks Terfyn!

    One more question... How easy is it to transfer recorded video files from the V770 over WiFi to a PC? I did some googling (and even downloaded the manual for the V770) but it's all very vague and seems heavily dependent on installing apps and doing a lot of manual setup.

    What I'd really like is to put the V770 into a mode where it shows up as a mass storage device on my WiFi network, and then pick and choose what to copy off the SD card. But it doesn't seem like that's possible. Any thoughts?

    Thanks,
    Alan
     
  15. Terfyn

    Terfyn
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    Looked at the User Manual for the 750 and, yes, it looks complicated but it can be done. Never done it myself, I have only used the Wi-Fi for a nearfield connection to my phone for remote control purposes.

    There are easier ways. To make the 770 look like a mass storage device just connect the USB to your PC. The camera will look like an external drive to your PC. Find the page in your user manual that says "About the PC display" and look for the folder you need to transfer (Example:- For AVCHD video go PRIVATE > AVCHD > BDMV > STREAM ) you will find all your video files in there, just select all and transfer to a named folder in My Video on your PC. The same process is required if you want to transfer still photos or MP4 files

    I always remove the SD card and transfer using my PCs reader card slot. I always download the video files and store them (and back them up) in my PC after a major shoot. I then re-format the SD card in the camera. This is very important as the formatting process sets up all the folders the camera requires for housekeeping.

    It is worth remembering that you are entering a new world moving from tape to card storage. The HV30 downloads a continuous stream of video plus timecode and you split the shots using the timecode. The 770 will create a video file each time you press the record button or the stills button. So splitting the shots is already done by the camera. You then download the folder you created directly into your video editor and string the individual files together to make your final video.

    I do not like HDWriter. I found that the download process using HDWriter also pulled down the housekeeping files and filled my PC with useless data. The process I have described above is "clean" and will only download the video and jpeg files you need. You do not need any Panasonic software to download the recorded information. For editing, you will note, I use VideoStudio (everyone has their own favourites) and find, for me, the whole process of creating a final video works flawlessly.

    Hope this helps.




     
  16. alanmic2003

    alanmic2003
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    Thanks Terfyn!

    Now that I'm looking closer, I'm worried that I'm paying for a lot of fancy "WiFi features" I don't really need. If ultimately one still has to use a USB cable to get stuff off the camera, and if I'm not using the camera as a baby monitor or for live streaming or any other WiFi-gimmicky thing, then maybe I'm better off with a more bare bones camera?

    The thing that attracted me to this camera was the low light performance. I wonder if there are other camcorders that use the same sensor and image processing, but with less bells and whistles? (It's too bad it's so difficult to research this -- The specs on sensors are so minimal, there's no official measurement about performance, light sensitivity, etc.)

    Thanks as always...!

    Alan
     
  17. alanmic2003

    alanmic2003
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    Actually, answering my own question... It seems like the biggest factor in sensor performance is its size. The V770 uses a 1/2.3" sensor. Looking at other comparable camcorders that cost less, there are none that I can find that have an equivalent sized sensor. In fact they're all considerably smaller. So it seems like it's pretty clear the V770 is the winner. (It's just annoying that Panasonic doesn't make a more basic model that uses the same sensor -- That would have been the sweet spot!)
     
  18. Terfyn

    Terfyn
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    I don't think it works like that. Like buying a new car, you accept that you will get a number of features that you may never use like SatNav or Bluetooth built in. So with the 770, it comes as a complete package. For example I have never used "face framing" or the Quick Start feature or 8mm movie effect etc. but you buy the package warts and all!

    (It's just annoying that Panasonic doesn't make a more basic model that uses the same sensor -- That would have been the sweet spot!)
    Again with the 770 you get external mic input and headphone out sockets, cheaper cameras miss these features out but I consider them essential. With your interest in choirs and productions, you will find the extra audio features a welcome addition. Example again, I record directly from my keyboard and Zoom H2 recorder using the SESCOM attenuator cable to get a direct audio input without using the camera mics. Maybe you can record using the church sound system to supply the audio. I can use wireless or shotgun mics as required. A pair of headphones plugged in allows me to monitor the recorded sound for any external noises I don't want.
    So you use the available features as necessary and you will find that the features grow with you. Slow Motion is one that I have used to add effect to my videos plus I discovered that the 750/770 will focus down to around 1" to give macro filming capabilities.
     
  19. alanmic2003

    alanmic2003
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    Yep, those are all good points, particularly about the audio. (And 1" for macro filming, that's pretty cool!)

    Well I'm convinced -- I've placed my order for the V770! Should arrive in a week or two. I'll let you guys know what I think of it.

    Thanks everyone for your input!

    Alan
     
  20. alanmic2003

    alanmic2003
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    So the good news: The camera arrived sooner than expected, and I've been playing with it for the past hour.

    The bad news: I'm not that happy with it. For one thing, any power interruption RESETS THE ZOOM. This is a deal killer for me. If you need to change batteries, or you're running off AC power and there's a power glitch, you have to spend time re-establishing your shot and re-zooming in. WHY?? The fact that it doesn't maintain user settings is mind-boggling, and not the way a prosumer camera should behave. As well I'm not particularly impressed with the shooting modes. On the Canon HV30, I could open the iris all the way and have the camera determine the correct shutter speed, or vice-versa. On the V770, the only option is a manual mode where you must set both, so if your lighting conditions change you're screwed.

    Overall this feels much more like a consumer camera than I thought it would. Not sure what I'm going to do yet. I don't know where turn next if I return it. Maybe I can try the Canon line again, assuming they haven't messed that up as well. Although maybe what I'm seeing is just the new norm for camcorders, and the days of "prosumer" camcorders are over. It's a pity because the picture is otherwise quite nice on this camera.

    Sigh...

    Alan
     
  21. Terfyn

    Terfyn
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    I'm surprised. This does not happen with the 750. If I zoom into a subject, turn the camera off and then on again, the zoom position remains exactly the same. So this is not a problem I have come across.
    Again the power problem can be overcome. As I mentioned above, the 750/770 runs off a 5V USB based supply. Now apart from third party batteries becoming available (see Dot Photo on Amazon for "Panasonic VW-VBT380 PREMIUM Replacement Rechargeable Camcorder Battery from Dot.Foto")
    the cameras will run from the Power Bank type battery packs used to recharge phones and other USB charged devices (I use a AUKEY Power Bank 20000mAh) Such units have been shown to run the 750 for about 12 hours nonstop.

    First iA mode will automatically set the shutter speed and the aperture for you and will react rapidly to any change in light. I do not use Manual mode for general recording. I only use the manual mode if I want to force the camera into a shallow focus shot. Also SCN will give you a number of options to cope with certain light conditions.
    I recently filmed in a Ghost Train (like you do:eek:) and the camera reacted perfectly from total darkness to flashing images without any problem. All it needed was for the general brightness to be enhanced in my video editor.
    Seriously I suggest you try it over a period of time and give it a chance. I am continually surprised at the performance which has not let me down yet.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2017
  22. 12harry

    12harry
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    FWIW: I'm surprised alanmic2003 isn't happy with several aspects, but the Zoom resetting may be a "quirk" introduced by the developers to make sure the Zoom was at a reasonably wide setting for a quick "Grab-Shot" - if it retained an extreme Zoom you might forget this; so you'd have to go wide before anything useful appeared. Also, it may be so the WB and Focus are "seeing" a more-steady image.

    Also, FWIW: I don't think you can attempt to say this is a "Prosumer" camcorder, despite it being good value for money (etc.)...£400 is too cheap to be classed as that.
    -If you pay a couple of grand, then you will expect the "pro" features, particularly in the Audio-department which always seems to be "poor, or Very poor" ((-for all Brands.). Indeed to get anything decent in Audio, seems you have to pay really silly £4k and then you can't take "Stills".... Ooops!
    ------------------------------------------------------------​
    I can buy a modest 4k camcorder with oodles of fast bit-recording and superb lens, yet the Audio is restricted to two channels L+R, no ability to put 20dB attenuation on one ( for "safety" ), in mono-=mode...and even more surprising, there is no ability to have several-more Audio tracks.
    ((+please not 5.1 - which is a phase-fiddling arrangement, as far as I know. )).
    Like I'd welcome another mini-jack for a second stereo channel ( Yes, I know too that Video-Editors would have to "Catch-up" with the extra tracks..... but it can't be that difficult.)...
    - The easy solution would be to record these additional Audios as a pair of .WAV files which you align in EDIT -
    Additional Audio features would show that these Camcorders ( any Brand ) were really able to compete with DSLR and "Mirrorless" which Mfrs really don't see as Video-Cameras, due in the main to poor Audio.

    If you want really poor audio then turn to older Blackmagics.... but then you have a half-hour delay while you attach all the bits to the frames.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------​
    Let's hope alanmic2003 finds a place in his heart for the Pana, once the initial shocks have worn off.
     
  23. alanmic2003

    alanmic2003
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    Hey guys,

    Yeah sorry about my last post -- I think I was in a grumpy mood when I posted it! :) I feel a bit better now, and I'm beginning to warm to the V770. The picture quality is pretty darn awesome, so I'm sure I can learn to live with its quirks. I think I was just frustrated to find that modern camcorders didn't include all the features of their predecessors. One would think that as technology progressed, manufacturers would continue to add features, not remove them. Ah well, c'est la vie.

    Thanks again everyone for your awesome help!

    Alan
     
  24. Terfyn

    Terfyn
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    Have a look at:-
    Digital Video Camera | Digital AV | Support | Panasonic Global
    This is a support section for our cameras and may be useful to you. The 750 had a software update in 2014 but I cannot see any update for the 770.

    In practice there are many features added even from the earlier 700 but I do not use most of them. The benefit is that the 770 is probably the best of the HD cameras still available. The biggest change is the loss of the viewfinder. (personally I don't miss it) The location of the sockets behind the LCD is also an annoyance.
    Probably your biggest change is going from tape to SD card and from timecode to independent files. It is so much easier to download into a video editor and pull into a final video. I have used Corel's VideoStudio for about 5 years now and it does most of what I want.

    How do you record the audio in the church? Not that easy I would guess.
     
  25. desinho

    desinho
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    Thought I might chime in on the indoor performance of the V770 vs an 8-10 year old FHD camcorder performance (Sony SR11 from 2008). I was contemplating on getting either a system camera, 'normal' photocamera (Sony RX100 I/II/III) or trusty camcorder to record some indoor sports matches again. In this case it was a badminton tournament on international level so with a better than normal lighting setup. 1:1 comparison is a bit difficult since the lighting system has changed over time but I think the old Sony can hold it's own (probably in worse conditions the 770 would fare better). Certainly the picture is sharper at the edges whereas on the Panasonic it's soft but that's probably more of a lens quality thing rather than sensor.
    And I can confirm the zoom reset on standby and it is indeed annoying as I have it setup on a 'tripod/gorillapod' with only 3-4x zoom max but it's not the end of the world. I guess it is indeed by design and losing focus from standby when you're at 18-20x zoom is the more annoying of these two evils :D. But I'll be returning the Panasonic, not happy with the sharpness of the picture along the edge (reminds me of the cheap SD JVC I also had in between, well 'cheap' for the time; it actually was not that much cheaper than the Panasonic can be had for now. Both not even half of what the Sony cost though)

    Sony in 2008 (these are somewhat comparable angles that also show the surroundings):
    [​IMG]

    Panasonic in 2017 (the newer lighting system has a colder temperature/more blueish white)
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017
  26. 12harry

    12harry
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    I think both camcorder pictures are pretty good - and I doubt many folks would be complaining. That colour-shift is "probably due to improved lighting affecting the improved sensors differently. ( = what you suspected.).
    Almost any Video Editor will change the colour-balance and some programs can do wonderful things with Colour Wheels . . . . . affecting the Colour for: Shadows, Midrange and Highlights. Personally, I stick to Colour Balance and apply it to all the files on one track, leaving another track for different settings. With two camcorders, it's usual to have minor differences.

    It's possible to spend too much time trying to get shots "just right" when "Time" is better-spent at the Shoot, getting close-ups of Visitors, and the various Officials at various times, provided you put a Title up stating that footage may be shown out of sequence and from different times - no-one reads that stuff but it covers you in case of complaint ( esp if X wasn't there after half-time...). Many Cutaways can be very useful in an Edit to give "pace" to the film....although if it's purely for "Game improvement" the Artistic element is less important -
    Although it should always be unnoticed!
    Quality:
    If the frames represent the whole sensor, then I don't think there's much wrong with the Lens, or Sensor.....but this can change throughout the Zoom-range and under different lighting. A quick-check would be to film trees in a park, all at Infinity, then move the zoom and wait for any tripod-movement to stabalise... speak the setting ( as best you can never really know!), and move on to the next level of Zoom. On playback using yr PC/ Large-screen combo any fall-off in definition should be easy to spot...BUT these are Consumer Camcorders . . . you can't expect full-blown Pro, or TV Quality.


    BTW you didn't ans. Terfyn's Q. Re the Audio in Church. I can imagine this can be very difficult, esp with a congregation... closing books, coughs and babies crying, let alone doors banging. As you will know it's best to get in close, to reduce these Background noises, which can be distracting. Of course you can sometimes "paste-over" noises by using a relatively quiet passage. I keep a "Master Audio Folder" of so-called Named-Sounds - so I can use them as and when the need arises. These are lifted from the Audio-track ( or from A Digital Recorder), then processed using a combination of Audacity ( good for annoying background sounds, like photocopiers ) and Sony's Sound Forge Studio, ( now almost dropped by Magix ). As I find it easy to adjust levels, etc. before saving the Named-files. For Editing convenience, sound effects I record nominally loud, but ambient sounds will be substantially lower.... as befits their use.

    Good luck.
     
  27. desinho

    desinho
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    :) yes both are definitely good quality, these are just VLC Player screenshots from the original recording files. Have been trying to find photos from 2008 to compare (but have gotten as far as 2009 for now; can probably show them later). I do always zoom in a little but it's still present at 3-4x zoom. I also have one from 10 rows further back so with more zoom and it does look improved on that end but I guess it would come at the cost of low-light performance (and in this case it could only be done from an elevated position to still keep the entire court in frame).

    Nowadays a lot is streamed live (single cam) on Youtube so as far as recording the complete matches for analysis is concerned it's not that important (I see a lot less coaches dragging around a tripod as well) but from an esthetic point of view a lower and slightly angled angle is much nicer and also shows of the real speed much better. And you get a lot better quality picture than the streams that are basically some fancy webcams. (for most of the second tier tournaments)
    I was only there as a spectator but there is no fixed seating so no problem getting front row position. Moving around for different shots is another story (particularly later in the week) but maybe a good idea for next time to bring a second cam/photocamera for closeup shots.
    The purpose originally back then was for sharing complete matches on a forum as not all courts were covered (even to this day coverage at the premier events is a far cry from tennis Grand Slam coverage) and even now it is still necessary to do it yourself if you want high quality footage from the earlier rounds or non-tv courts :rolleyes:. And also itat least keeps me somewhat occupied during these often long sessions :D

    As for the sound I seem to have read earlier this week that the 'zoom' mic was only available in AVCHD mode and I have only used MP4 with stereo recording (no wonder I couldn't find the 'zoom mic' option) but it still didn't seem to pick up as much of the surrounding noise as the Sony did (but that one has 5.1 /6 channel audio). The conversations in the audience for example were a bit harder to understand as compared to the Sony footage.

    Here's another 'raw' screenshot vs the Youtube broadcast (where the brightness on the 770 is a pretty accurate/closer representation of how it looked in person):

    [​IMG]

    Kento Momota vs Mark Caljouw (MS, SF) - Yonex...
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2017
  28. 12harry

    12harry
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    Audio_ Take care when using microphone and Zoom words.
    - Unfortunately the makers of a hand-held recorder is called Zoom ( Yep daft I know, but that's "Marketing" ).
    Also, some camcorder claim to have a "Zoom-Microphone" so the camera sound is "focussed" where the Zoom (lens) is focussed. I suspect this is another example of phase-fiddling ( as is Audio 5.1 surround), and is therefore a distortion.

    If you are serious about picking-up audio from a distance, then you have two routes from a camcorder position...1) Use a shotgun mic. -or- 2) Use a parabolic dish.
    (2) is almost unheard of these days, but has the advantage there is a physical audio-Gain because the pick-up is the size of the dish, rather than the size of the mic-element.
    (3) = However, if you, or an assistant can "mingle" then taking an audio-recorder close-in is even better. Of course they need to understand recording-microphones ( and not make noises, or overload ), but they do say a cheap mic at 3 feet will beat a £1000 mic at twenty-three.

    Hope that helps.
     
  29. rogs

    rogs
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    Spot on Harry ....recording audio at a distance is almost always inferior to getting 'close in' to the source.
    The audio mic 'zoom' facility provided on camcorders is essentially a gimmick .
    People don't realise that 'audio zoom' doesn't really work very well at all, whereas optical 'video zoom' can work very well....
     

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