How Many listen at Reference volume.

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by scottthehat, Feb 21, 2013.

?
  1. yes.

    5 vote(s)
    6.9%
  2. no.

    42 vote(s)
    58.3%
  3. sometimes.

    20 vote(s)
    27.8%
  4. my kit wont hadle refrence volume.

    5 vote(s)
    6.9%
  1. scottthehat

    scottthehat
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    Hi Just wondering how many peopla listen at reference volume and If they do how often,
    can your kit give refrence sound with quality.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2013
  2. k17chy

    k17chy
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    depends on the source. watching a dvd now and its at -10db and its giving the room a proper workout :laugh:
     
  3. KelvinS1965

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    The most I've watched a whole film at is about -8db as above that it just becomes too loud (and even then that film wasn't a particularly loud/action film). I've done short bursts at 0db just to see, but I think it's probably pushing my sub a bit as it gets a bit 'farty'. :D Separate power amps (biamped front three) probably helps the rest of the speaker set up, though running 8-10db down is plenty for me and leaves more headroom, plus it saves my ears since even then my SPL meter is showing over 100db peaks at my listening position.

    I suppose it also depends on the room size since 6.5 x 4 metres isn't that big especially with fairly efficient speakers.
     
  4. scottthehat

    scottthehat
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    do you think your kit will handle reference, like the mono+ i know the specs say -3 it can hit 17hz but what does is sound like,
    Just watched the avengers at -5 and it sounded great but actually didnt sound to loud for one, I dont go to refrence on fright of killing my sub, im not sure how low the lfe channel can go.

    my room is 18ftx13ft.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2013
  5. Doomlord_uk

    Doomlord_uk
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    No I don't, because I can't - either on our TV (not really a system, obviously...) or at my brother's house where I go to enjoy movies that do need some decent sound (because he has an AV sound system, we don't right now).

    So I could have voted 'no, my system won't do it'.

    Here's the thing: even if I had a system capable of running at -0dBs (what is the 'reference' listening distance, btw?) it would quite literally be deafening. Deep bass/sub-bass at very high levels is fun and not harmful to hearing, but higher up the frequency range reference levels would cause hearing damage, at least in the long run. It's not fun walking out of a cinema with your ears ringing*, and it wouldn't be at home either.

    This is why I voted 'no, I don't'.

    *The main reason I rarely go to the cinema now, they play the sound too loud and I'd rather not get tinnitus.

    /grumpy cat
     
  6. Ashmanuk

    Ashmanuk
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    Now i have moved to the new MK s150mkii i just cant help turnng that volume up higher and higher :)
    I ticked sometimes as it would be dependent on the rest of the family being out as wife and children tend to not like my listnen level ;(
     
  7. k17chy

    k17chy
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    my room is 5x4m and i was listening to some bass test stuff on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcyXE5xPbDk the other day and i got it up to about -5db and every thing in the room was vibrating. watched inception a few nights ago and could only get it up to -11db as it was far to loud. the really low stuff sound great.
     
  8. Doomlord_uk

    Doomlord_uk
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    I'm guessing my brother's Paradigm Servo 15 can do 'reference' levels in his living room, but I doubt the rest of his system (Monitor Audio Bronze speakers and Onkyo TX-NR906) could do it, btw.
     
  9. scottthehat

    scottthehat
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    I dont know if it could to be honest, to do reference volume 100% you need a sub that can handle downto 10hz and 115db peaks so major power needed.
    even on databass there is no subs that can do that,
    Data-Bass

    my 15" ae driver in my 95l box can only hit 93db at 10hz.

    suppose you could have a hpf set for say 20hz, even then 20hz at 115db still not many can do that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2013
  10. Member 639844

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    Reference specs only require a sub to go down to 20hz, and deliver 105db at the listening position. If you can exceed that, then your exceeding the official reference figure requirements. The reference standards are really a minimum standard to enjoy high quality playback, they arent any sort of set in stone parameter to fix yourself too.
     
  11. scottthehat

    scottthehat
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    but the lfe can peak at 115db so shorley it must have to be able to take 20hz at 115db is that right.

    also dan how low can the lfe channel go to in movies

    this lark is confusing :laugh:
     
  12. Quaddy

    Quaddy
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    most i listen to a blu ray film via oppo 93 is about -15, thats on a quieter master, most of the time i get away with ~-20 - and i would certainly like to think my submersive could handle reference with aplomb :)
     
  13. kbfern

    kbfern
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    I doubt if many listen at reference level on a regular or irregular basis as it is just too loud especially when sitting at close range to your speakers.

    In a cinema you will be many feet from the nearest speakers (probably 20-50ft or more) at home you may be 6-10ft from the speakers and I find movies at -6db to be very loud and for most movies I would be normally be listening at -8db. I do listen to music concerts at -5db sometimes and that feels like you were there on the front row.

    I would think that most folks that have decent kit (capable of ref level) in a dedicated room never listen at ref other than on the very odd occasion to test the kit or show off to some mates.:D
     
  14. scottthehat

    scottthehat
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    What size is the submersive.
    my 15" diy sub can hit 104.7db at 20hz so just off being classed as reference sub i guess.:laugh:
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2013
  15. Quaddy

    Quaddy
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    hiya, its dual 15" 1000w
     
  16. scottthehat

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    looks nice, not sure what that bad boy can do, my 15" ae driver can take 750w rms in my 20" cube and is powerd of a behrigner nu3000 which is rated a2200 wrms at 4ohms, but im thinking of building another 95l cab and sticking my other ae 15" driver or building a 150l cab for both ae drivers and giving them a 1000wrms each.
     
  17. Member 639844

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    The reference specs are just a minimum spec for good quality playback, they dont match the maximum theoretical output potential possible.

    Th LFE channel covers 2-120 hz, so in theory you could have anything from 2hz at 115db, but no one in their right mind is going to put that in a soundtrack, probably :devil:

    As most dont listen that loud anyway, I doubt most people need 115db at 10hz.
     
  18. nethien

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    Although my system will allow playback at or beyond reference, that is just too loud in homecinema.
    Since i upgraded my speakers last year, i get much better intelligibility at lower volumes and it just feels good to know you have some extra headroom left.
    Most action movies i will listen to at -5 to -10dB below reference.
    Reference level is mostly used for demo of LFE and volume will be dialed back after.
    I get too much enjoyment from clean, undistorted sound for me to risk damaging my hearing by listening too loud.
    I will be listening to classical music at reference and in general my observation is that there is a much bigger difference in general output level between music blu rays, as opposed to movies.
     
  19. MemX

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    'Need' and 'want' are two entirely separate things ;) :p




    I was just under the impression that 'Reference' was cranking the dial up to zero :confused: so thanks for the clarification that it's just 105dB @ 20hz :)
     
  20. Tom @ PSA

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    Don't forget that data-bass publishes data based on the CEA-2010 directive. So all the distortion data is gathered outside with no reflective boundaries(except the ground) at a 2 meter mic distance using fairly strict distortion limits.

    Factor in boundary gain.

    Factor in pressure vessel gain(room gain).

    Each nearfield room boundary will add 4-5dB to the output. So a corner will add 8-10 for the two walls and a bit more for the ceiling. Say 10-12dB.

    PVG is tougher being dependent on room size, construction, losses(openings, windows, etc). Something like....+2 @35hz, +4 @25hz, [email protected], [email protected], and [email protected] wouldn't be uncommon though.

    So in the above example you would add 22-24dB to the 10hz output of a subwoofer on data-bass if it was placed in a good corner of a room. Subtract maybe 3-4dB if you move from 2m to 4m (listening distance) as the inverse square law doesn't transfer directly to in room.

    The LFE channel is 3-120hz brick-walled. What is "required" for reference level playback could be argued as anything from 3hz to 20hz I suppose. I'd personally say extension in the 12-16hz range would be plenty.

    Also, there is no "distance" specification. That is eliminated because of the headroom(output) specification. 105dB at the seating positions from the full range channels. 115dB at the seating positions for the LFE channel. If the system reroutes the full range channel bass to the subwoofer(speakers set to small)...the subwoofer(s) cab be required to produce 118dB or so on occasion. If you like your bass calibrated "hot"....factor that in as well.

    Tom V.
     
  21. Tom @ PSA

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    Usually, yes. If the receiver/processor defaults to a *00* master volume setting during the calibration sequence....in most instances *00* now indicates "reference level" playback volume levels.

    Tom V.
    Power Sound Audio
     
  22. vader100

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    Live in a semi detached so very rarely get to push past -30db. Watched The Dark Knight at -20 db and had neighbour complaining.:(

    Hoping to extend out the back in future so can make the most of my kit.
     
  23. Member 639844

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    I think people take the reference specs as the golden rule, when really, its just for reference. When people think of reference playback I think they generally think of the dolby or thx specs, which is what the industry accepted minimum requirements are. The actual full dynamic range possible exceeds the reference specs by some margin, so the reference is really just that, and is really aimed at achieving a good quality of performance in a system.

    When you calibrate your system and set the volume to 00, then the full dynamic range is available, at least much of it as your system is capable of reproducing. If your system can at least match the thx/dolby specs, then you are pretty much guaranteed high quality playback and an enjoyable experience, and thats what those specs are really all about.

    So lets wrap it up.

    The speaker channels are 2hz - some high frequency I cant remember off hand 25khz maybe.
    The speaker channels play at and average spl of 85 db.
    The speaker channels play at a maximum of 105 db

    The LFE channel plays 2 (or 3)hz - 120hz
    The LFE channel plays an average spl of 85db
    The LFE channel plays a maximum of 115 db

    The THX specs require a sub to pay clean to 20hz at at least 105db at the listening position.
    The THX specs require the speakers to play clean to 80hz at at least 105db.
    The THX specs require the speakers and sub to cross over at 80hz.

    When your systems master volume is set at 00 then the above conditions are met, again as far as your system is capable. Playing back at -10 means you drop 10db of all the above spl figures.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 21, 2013
  24. rob_brum

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    When you run the amp's auto set-up should you always set the master volume to "00" then? I kinda assumed the set-up would ignore the amps volume setting and and run the set-up test at the correct volume regardless......or am I miss reading what you have put.

    Regards
    Rob
     
  25. Member 639844

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    The master volume has no effect during calibration. The test tone is output at a fixed level, and the mic should read a 75db spl output. If it doesnt then the trim levels are adjusted to match. 00 will then be ref level from every speaker and sub at the mic position, which obviously should match the main listening position. The system doesnt need to be reference level loud to calibrate, so calibration is done at a lower more acceptable level.
     
  26. Tom @ PSA

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    The master volume usually raises/lowers the test tone level during calibration in my experience. But I don't have a huge amount of hands on with the newest receivers/processor either.

    Also, the THX requirement for the subwoofer is 115dB when there is a LFE channel present. 105dB with no LFE channel iirc.

    Tom V.
     
  27. scottthehat

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    most amps use a fixed pink noise of 75db.
     
  28. hoppaz

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    But does the mic do this accurately across the entire frequency range?
     
  29. scottthehat

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    I suppose that's why you can check with and spl meter.
     
  30. hoppaz

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    Yup but that is not a pair of ears
     

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