How HDR should look like against SDR

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Titan31, Jan 18, 2019.

  1. Titan31

    Titan31
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    Hi, i have Epson TW7400. Awesome performance. Now iam trying to run HDR content and iam little confused.
    Source is from Windows 10 HDMI 2.0a Colors set to YCBCR 4:2:2 / 4:4:4 tryied too 10/12bit HDR on windows set to ON.
    Its working somehow - but dont know if working as supposed to.
    Projector is saying its receiving BT.2020 colors - 12bit, HDR enabled - it swith automatically.
    Picture look different from SDR but cant tell if its better at all.
    When playing for example Avengers Infinity from beginning scenes the comparison between
    2160p HDR source MKV VS 1080P SDR source MKV is :

    HDR look dimmer - contrast is maybe better, but cant tell because its overall dimmer image, its not shining that
    much as SDR source of the same movie - colors are not that bright and vibrant too. In scene where there is shining star
    behind you can see details little better around...but...thats noticable only whnen focusing on that spot.

    SDR content have much more punchy colors - its obvious from the first moments of the movie and much more noticeble than "maybe better" contrast
    Dont know iff iam missing something and HDR not working as supposed here..?

    I was thinking HDR should have better colors?


    HDR change enable/disable is very much noticeble when playing HDR MKV with HDR off and after that you enable HDR.
    With HDR off the image is washed out complettelly like in FOG, when enable HDR you got some colors back, but again - VS SDR source in SDR mode theres much more colors presented.
     
  2. Titan31

    Titan31
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    Iam thinking now - when projector switch to HDR - is it using the same color adjustment setting?
    iam having everything by default on 50 but colors have to 70. So when playing SDR its using 70 and when switch to HDR its using the default 50? i cant test right now and lover the colors to default 50 - but that can be the color vibrancy problem here maybe?

    And another thing i noticed , in windows in color setting i can set only LIMITED HDR here. Shouldnt there be something like FULL HDR? Changing resolution / refresh rate doesnt seem to have impact on this.
     
  3. Chinstroke

    Chinstroke
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    Are you changing the Colour setting to Cinema or Digital cinema for HDR content? This needs to be done in order to engage the colour filter. However when going back to playing SDR content you need to change back to Natural.
     
  4. digger73

    digger73
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    Why do you have to go back to natural ?
    Colors are still good in cinema or digital cinema for sdr content, I think actually better than in Natural. However, you loose half of the lumens using cinema or digital cinema
     
  5. Abacus

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    Projectors (Except professional projectors) have a limited light output so it is natural for the image to dim in HDR to stop the bright points being clipped/squashed, (A lot of OLED TV’s are the same as they also have low light output compared to LCD) are you sure that when it switches to HDR the lamp increases to full power (I assume you normally run on eco mode) so as to increase brightness.

    As has been mentioned the setting for SDR & HDR have to be set differently, however not all projectors give you this option (Check in the menu) so you may have to compromise.

    Most reviews say you needed the 9300 to get the best out of HDR as the 7300 wasn’t really up to it, so as the 7400 is just a stop gap model (Small refresh) I would imagine the same will apply.

    Bill
     
  6. Titan31

    Titan31
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    Iam using Cinema mode all the time. I really think its ignoring my color saturation enhancement by 20 wchich iam using in cinema mode. mybe its ignoring all the custom settings i have... gama, brightnes, saturation etc...so iam used to more colors than in default settings and even HDR in defaults looks little worst, but its maybe more realistic i think. need to investigate more and try diffent movies and scenes
     
  7. Titan31

    Titan31
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    No, the lamp is set to ECO all the time, i could try to set full power and post back if it helps.
    And iam all the time in Cinema mode, because it looked the best for me - best colors and not that much brightnes which i just dont like.
     
  8. Chinstroke

    Chinstroke
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    That's one of the reasons why HDR is looking washed out to you because REC709 content is being displayed with the wrong colour space which exaggerates the colour similar to using a vivid mode. You are right though that when it detects a HDR flag it defaults all settings back to out of the box ones until you change them, at which point it will save those as your HDR preference.
     
  9. Titan31

    Titan31
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    In review of TW7300 there is :
    "The EH-TW7300 has to be in the Cinema preset with contrast set to maximium. In this mode the colour filter is applied to the light path for the extended colour gamut and as it does so it darkens the amount of light coming from the projector."


    So that mean if i have contrast lower the "color filter" isnt applied ? :)
     
  10. Chinstroke

    Chinstroke
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    No the colour filter is applied once you set the cinema colour, in fact you can hear the filter being moved into place when you first change setting and hear it being removed when going back to natural. Because the filter reduces the brightness some recommend turning up the contrast.
     
  11. Furnace Inferno

    Furnace Inferno
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    To keep it super simple for SDR you want to use Natural picture mode and Eco lamp, for HDR switch to Digital Cinema and High Lamp, this is also what Epson recommend because for HDR you need more brightness hence why it looks dim to you and the filter expands the colour gamut to DCI-P3 (which you don't want to do for SDR otherwise the colours will be wrong). Same as how when watching 3D you'd use high lamp mode.

    Some people use Bright Cinema for HDR for more brightness which removes the filter but then you lose the expanded colour gamut. Personally the best part of UHD for me is the Wide Colour Gamut and the extra brightness doesn't do anything for me on the projector or OLED but that's up to you to decide.

    The final setting you'll want to play with is the HDR setting which has a few options to change the brightness of HDR by compressing the dynamic range. So instead of it trying to show 500nits of brightness which no projector south of 6 figures is capable of it will clip at 100 or 200nits instead. Again some of it will be preference or content dependant and some of it will be dependant on the room the projector is in and how much contrast you can get.

    Finally once you've done that you will need to save one memory preset for SDR and one for HDR and load them accordingly as unlike 3D it won't auto switch.
     
  12. Titan31

    Titan31
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    So after some more testing i must say most problems with HDR in my setup was made by windows drivers/codecs. After clean reinstall its working ok now, but only with VLC 3 as media player. I am not able to make it running in KODI 17.6 or 18 RC doesnt matter. Movies in kodi are still presented as SDR no matter what i do. Best HDR experience for me is in Bright Cinema mode. Contrast around 70, if its more it too much shining and hiding details around light sources. In Digital cinema its all too dark. Thanks all for comments.
     
  13. Leo31291

    Leo31291
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    Interesting topic. HDR on projectors seem to be a minefield of experimentation. As furnace mentioned do you go for the highlights or the WCG. On one hand what's the use of using the WCG when those colours will be muted ? The biggest takeaway from watching HDR on a TV set are the bright highlights so that's why I settled on a bright cinema preset. But I may go back and have another go with digital cinema.
     

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