How does a remap actually change the "driving" experience?

Dodgy_Geezer

Well-known Member
Thinking of getting a stage 1 remap and trying to understand what will actually change. The tuners all say the same thing "more HP", "more torque", "more power", "faster response" and I get all that but how does it actually translate into the actual driving experience?

For example, using simple numbers and metrics let's say my unmapped 1.2 turbo petrol auto currently does this when driving normally with 40% throttle:

- changes from 1st gear to 2nd gear at 3.5k revs when it reaches 10mph (it takes 2 secs to reach 10mph)
- changes from 2nd gear to 3rd gear at 3k revs when it reaches 20mph (it takes 3 secs from 10mph to reach 20mph)
- changes from 3rd gear to 4th gear at 2.5k revs when it reaches 30mph (it takes 4 secs from 20mph to reach 30mph)

So that's a total of 9 secs to go from stop to 40mph.

Now, once remapped, it gains an extra 20 BHP and 40 NM torque. How will that change the way it drives?

1. Revs stay same but it reaches the gear change point at a lower speed (e.g. changes from 1st to 2nd gear at 3.5k revs but at 5mph instead of 10mph).

2. Speed stay same but revs lower to change gear (e.g. changes from 1st to 2nd gear at 3k revs instead of 3.5k revs but still at 10mph).

3. Both revs and speed stay same but the acceleration is faster (eg. now takes only 7 secs to reach 40mph).

4. Nothing changes but only need 20% throttle instead of 40% to drive it the same way (so more responsive).

5. Different combination of any the above (and what would this combo be?).

Hope this makes sense, any advice would be great as it'll be my first remap so all new to me. Thinking I might go with a Bluefin over a stage 1 as quite like the idea of being able to put it back to stock just in case.

Cheers,

DG
 

mjn

Distinguished Member
Most cheap remaps just dump more fuel, faster. The remap depends on type of fuel, modifications, etc.
 

Dodgy_Geezer

Well-known Member
Aren't those the modules which you just wire in from the engine bay and that piggyback off the ECU? Something like a RaceChip tuning box? How do they compare with a proper remap through the OBD port?

Wasn't looking at those and considering a proper remap from somewhere like Quantum Tuning, Celtic Tuning or Superchips. Any others to recommend?
 
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To be honest it depends on the map and how they’ve made it. The one I had for my Navara cleared some turbo lag gaps which made towing a lot better and acceleration much more controlled.

But put simplistically, and if it’s not created to overcome a problem. The enjoyment and improvement could come from the feeling of having a bigger engine than you actually have. A more relaxed drive and more mid range oomph. In addition good remaps don’t just up the power they also alter the throttle response (a big impact on how it feels) and potentially even the gear changes and speed with which they handle it.
 

nvingo

Well-known Member
...But put simplistically, and if it’s not created to overcome a problem. The enjoyment and improvement could come from the feeling of having a bigger engine than you actually have...
Which translates to: the manufacturer deliberately throttled the engine to perform like a smaller one, for one or more of the following reasons; longevity, service interval, emission compliance, insurance rating, tax rating, (average) driver expectation
 
Which translates to: the manufacturer deliberately throttled the engine to perform like a smaller one, for one or more of the following reasons; longevity, service interval, emission compliance, insurance rating, tax rating, (average) driver expectation
Plus positioning within the range, and being able to deal with wildly varying environmental conditions; ie very hot in Spain to very cold in Scandinavia.
 

noiseboy72

Distinguished Member
It depends upon your driving style.

The example you give of a moderate pull away is probably a very bad example and you would notice very little difference. What would be more of a test - and is of more importance is the 40-70MPH overtake figure. The ability to safely accelerate quickly and overtake in the shortest possible time is a key benefit of more power, not the time to start from a standstill or the absolute top end performance.

More torque equates to more relaxed motorway cruising, with less gear changes and driver input required, with power available throughout the rev range. Try driving over Saddleworth Moor on the M62 in an underpowered car compared to something with more torque, it's a totally different experience!

Manufacturers often "de-rate" engines to improve service life and emissions, it's been the case since the introduction of the turbo engine, as once you have a way of getting more air and fuel into the cylinder, the challenge then becomes to cool it and ensure the crank, bearings and other mechanical parts will stand up to the stress. The size of inlet and outlet ports is also a consideration. As an example, the much derided Ford Ecoboost 3 Cylinder engine produces from 84hp - 140hp from the same engine, with major changes being the size of turbo, boost pressure and fuel injector size. It's possible to get more than 150hp from the base 84hp engine with a few changes - and without replacing the turbo, but emissions and longevity will suffer.

If you re-map your car, any warranty on the engine will be voided, as will your insurance - if they find out. Just factor this into your costs for the project...
 
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ashenfie

Well-known Member
A properly remapped car will give a small benefit in terms of Hp with a remap. Ive had a few done and they work without issue. Most work as others say be making the turbo pump more fuel into the car. So basically most of benefit if your car has a turbo.

Now those nasty little tuning box work by falling the car into thinking it need to pump more fuel in. This is bad because unlike an remapping it fooling the car and the ECU could do all kinds of nasties.

One other point. if you change turbo's, air filters or exhausts for performance parts, you might without a remap you car is slower not faster. This is because the ECU diagnostics turn down the engine performance if curtain parameters are exceed.

So it vital to do some reading
 

Dodgy_Geezer

Well-known Member
Thanks for the replies, most of the driving is stop start around town so looking for improvements in the lower speeds up to 30-40mph rather than 40-70mph overtaking on the motorway.

Not looking for anything more than a stage 1 remap so won't be changing exhausts or turbo's for performance parts (might replace the air filter though if it'll help).
 

Ormy

Member
Short answer: in terms of the options you presented, likely to be mostly 3 with a bit of 4.

Long answer: depends on what exactly the new map is doing, which parameters is it changing and how.
 

Dodgy_Geezer

Well-known Member
How do the handheld units like Bluefin, Quantum Remapper and JFA Touch Tune that just plug into the OBD port compare against those done by a remapper using the same port?

I like the idea of being able to put the old map back on if needed and being able to reload the map if the car goes in for servicing and the ECU is returned to stock.
 

noiseboy72

Distinguished Member
It depends on the car and what can be done via the OBD. What car are you looking to map? For some cars all you can do via the OBD is tighten up the throttle response while others do more in terms of fuel air mixture, timing etc.

For pottering around town, I really don't think you are going to gain much above throttle response, so maybe this is the route to go.
 

Dodgy_Geezer

Well-known Member
Car is a Peugeot 3008 SUV 1.2 petrol auto, used mostly for town driving with a longer 30 mile round trip every week.
 

Sloppy Bob

Member
Have you checked to see how it will change your insurance premiums?

Some insurers really don't like these types of mods and penalise you for doing it, others are more friendly.
 

Dodgy_Geezer

Well-known Member
Have you checked to see how it will change your insurance premiums?

Some insurers really don't like these types of mods and penalise you for doing it, others are more friendly.
Yes, I called my insurer and they won't insure it but I have a quote from another insurer which is about 50 quid more with the mod.
 

un1eash

Distinguished Member
You'll hardly notice a difference on a 1.2 Turbo, 20bhp/40Nm gains are often being optimistic and after a few months you won't notice the extra power. A proper remap might iron out some flat spots and dips in torque but without a live remap before and after you'll just be getting a generic map uploaded.
Go and test drive a 1.6 THP and see how that feels compared to yours.
 

Dodgy_Geezer

Well-known Member
You'll hardly notice a difference on a 1.2 Turbo, 20bhp/40Nm gains are often being optimistic and after a few months you won't notice the extra power. A proper remap might iron out some flat spots and dips in torque but without a live remap before and after you'll just be getting a generic map uploaded.
Go and test drive a 1.6 THP and see how that feels compared to yours.
By proper remap do you mean one on a dyno where it's customised to the actual car as opposed to a generic map that'll work on any Peugeot 3008 SUV 1.2 petrol auto?
 

un1eash

Distinguished Member
Yes a live map where they will fine tune it to your car. Most remaps will just do a power check, upload a generic map then do another power check and even then you have to trust the rolling road as I've seen very optimistic results before as the tuners make them look like making more power.
 

Rockets

Active Member
I think the biggest change you will see is how often you fill up with petrol. Going from 130 to 150 hp on a car that weighs over 1300kg isn't going to be night and day.
 

Dodgy_Geezer

Well-known Member
I think the biggest change you will see is how often you fill up with petrol. Going from 130 to 150 hp on a car that weighs over 1300kg isn't going to be night and day.
So the change isn't likely to be much and it'll be worse mpg? I thought any improvement in low down torque would mean better mpg if it's driven the same way and not being caned.
 
So the change isn't likely to be much and it'll be worse mpg? I thought any improvement in low down torque would mean better mpg if it's driven the same way and not being caned.
In my experience that is correct. I measured it over three months (by fill ups before and after) and it was on my car an 24.4% improvement.

Saying that the return on investment was if I recall correctly about 28,000 miles. So purely from a cost perspective you would need to do sufficient miles in it. As aforementioned I had mine tailored to remove a flat spot low down. And that was an plug-in box.
 

Dodgy_Geezer

Well-known Member
Quick follow up on this.

Had the car remapped but the change was fairly modest. There was an improvement in torque and the car did change gear a little lower down the rev counter but was a bit disappointed to be honest. It also seemed to kill the stop start.

Restored the stock map back and tried a tuning module instead. On the medium setting, it was pretty much the same as the remap. Moving it up a notch though it was much better; throttle response, acceleration and torque is vastly improved. Fuel consumption seems to be the same too so far but the car is a lot faster.

Overall really suprised as I thought the remap would yield the better results.

Next mod might be to replace the air filter, even though it's new. The stock one is a huge cheese shaped wedge of foam that seems to have less air flow than a smokers cough.
 

IWC Dopplel

Well-known Member
I have used Racechip before and was pleased on a Diesel Turbo (BMW Alpina). This was also better not worse for MPG as well. Over all, Chips and mild tuning are more icing on the cake than tuning something that a car isn't into a sports car. 1.2 litres isnt a lot of cc's to play with for a big car and you are already over 100 hp per litre
 

IWC Dopplel

Well-known Member
PS be aware that most manufacturers now are clever enough to know what has been done to the ECU. Even if you reflash the original software on some there is a record. I say that in case you end up with a warranty issue that ends up being a problem.

Having said that if you only teak mildly and read a few forums about reliability you should be okay
 

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