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how can I avoid dse and banding?

BrightLight2019

Novice Member
I am extremely sensitive to dirty screen effect (DSE) and banding. I do a lot of gaming, so I am always staring at screens with camera pans, often with solid-colored backgrounds. Also, we usually use the tv in very dark environments, as light in my peripheral vision causes me headaches. I honestly don’t care about much else: 4k, HDR, black levels, local dimming, etc. I just want a uniform picture. What are my best options for under $1000? Is OLED even worth considering, or does that have unuformity issues too?
 

zeppelino

Distinguished Member
Oled can suffer from banding, lcd can suffer from dse. Both can suffer from either issue at the same time.

No screen is perfect. FALD lcd sets like the Sony XF90 and Samsung Q8FN tend to be less prone to DSE.

Buy from somewhere that will allow you to return the tv if not suitable. I’m not sure of rights in the US but you should notice any issues within a few days of getting the tv.

What TVs are showing within your budget? Sorry, I don’t know where’s best to buy from where you are.
 

BrightLight2019

Novice Member
Oled can suffer from banding, lcd can suffer from dse. Both can suffer from either issue at the same time.

No screen is perfect. FALD lcd sets like the Sony XF90 and Samsung Q8FN tend to be less prone to DSE.

Buy from somewhere that will allow you to return the tv if not suitable. I’m not sure of rights in the US but you should notice any issues within a few days of getting the tv.

What TVs are showing within your budget? Sorry, I don’t know where’s best to buy from where you are.

Ugh, I was hoping to avoid the issue entirely. I just got through three exchanges of a Vizio M55-F0, all of which had unacceptable (to me) banding and uniformity issues. I actually figured the FALD was partly to blame here, because you can see a faint grid of horizontal amd vertical lights with this TV on grey and white screens. This wasn’t the case with my previous set, which did not have FALD; it had DSE but not banding. Also, I’ve learned the FALD on these Vizio sets is not worth the effort; it has something like 32 dimming zones, so you get a lot of weird artifacts from the dimming.

I have given up playing the lottery with this model. I’m going to see if the store will just accept a return and I can try a different brand. For $500, I expected a cleaner picture. My two thoughts are to go cheaper with something like the TCL 49S325 (about $250 lessj and if the panel is still not uniform, at least I saved money...or splurge on something like an LG OLED B8 in the hopes of better quality. But I do not want to spend even more and end up with a panel in the same or worse condition, uniformity-wise. I’ll probably be buying online.
 

BrightLight2019

Novice Member
For clarification, when I say the problems were unacceptable to me, I mean that it’s visible even against non-uniform backgrounds. For example, in a shot like this, if the camera were to scroll (especially vertically), you would see distracting lines appear on the grass. This is actually worse than the DSE on our old set, and I think it is a banding issue.

upload_2019-2-27_6-51-4.jpeg
 

Dodgexander

Moderator
There isn't really much I can add that hasn't already been mentioned. There is a trend when you go higher up the ranges that you get better overall screen uniformity from TVs, especially ones that have good local dimming or OLEDs but you can still get lucky or unlucky with all panel types.

If you can afford an OLED and you don't think you will be prone to burn in then it will be your best chance at getting the most uniform panel, generally OLEDs are a lot more uniform as they do not have lights shining from behind the panel like LCDs do.

Even with LCDs with good local dimming screen uniformity can be bad and some adjustments sometimes have to be made to minimize it. On my Panasonic DX902 LCD (512 dimming zones) I can't watch sport with local dimming above min as I notice the lines from the zones behind the TV.

It has to be said though, it depends on the LCD TV, Samsung models with local dimming (Q8FN, Q9FN) tend to have less blooming but more noticeable zones behind the TV but Sony tend to have more blooming but less noticeable zones.

I haven't seen higher end Vizios to compare but I will say they have a reputation of having very obvious local dimming, so perhaps you will be better with a different brand. Sadly though TCL, whilst probably having better dimming in the 6 series also have a noticeable pixel structure during PC use.

The M series you have tried though isn't really a TV with good local dimming anyway, I'd set your eyes on the P series or a Sony X900F/Samsung Q8FN/Q9FN to get good local dimming.
 

Analysis

Banned
Vizio tend to use LG Display IPS panels in most of their lineup, with a few Samsung or CSOT VA panels.

Sadly though TCL, whilst probably having better dimming in the 6 series also have a noticeable pixel structure during PC use.

Yeah I saw this on the T607 and most recently the R617 upon launch, the grid lines would appear from the backlight, and you couldn't get rid of this in anyway, it's a lottery to get a good example from TCL most likely due to the volumes they produce, they are the 3rd largest producer in the world.
 

Analysis

Banned
if the camera were to scroll (especially vertically), you would see distracting lines appear on the grass

Yeah this is similar to light bleed which I have on my set, you can see a faint light in certain parts, and also when there is no content being used say at channel prompt you can also see the light bleed in it's entirety, my XE70 is edge led with frame dimming though and not FALD.

DSE though is minimal compared to my last tv, one thing I will say is the panels are way better nowadays than they were 10 years ago.

If you get a good example with minimal issues then it's best to keep it and not bother returning, you might end up with a worst panel.

We all have tolerances to this type of problem, some people don't even know what banding, DSE really are and will be watching their tv's oblivious to it.

Some people like IPS panels even though Screen Uniformity is more prone to developing with this kind of tech due to the pixel structure differences to VA cells with light coming from the backlight more resulting in poor contrast and blacks.
 

BrightLight2019

Novice Member
Thank you for the responses!

It just floors me that screen uniformity is still an issue in 2019. Does the technology to create a perfectly uniform panel just not exist? Or is it that other factors like brightness, contrast levels, and thinness get more attention? I read somewhere that uniformity was a lot less of an issue when televisions were thicker and heavier, but everybody is doing wall-mounting these days...

The LG 55” OLED B8 is current available at the very top end of our budget. I might try that, but I am really worried that banding will be the same or worse as the screen uniformity issues I am seeing on this Vizio. Also, I have read that some people have issues with different tints appearing on white pictures.

The crazy thing about the Vizio is that it is fully backlit. There isn’t backlight bleed, and the blacks look very uniform overall. The issue arises with lighter hues. Also, all three of these panels I tried have had a noticeable stripe of more brightly lit pixels in the very center of the screen; generally not noticeable in normal content but visible in white screens. In one of the three (the one that had the least DSE), the top four inches of this stripe were visible in most normal content, even in some static images and definitely while panning. I assume it is inherent to the way the backlights are set up.

My wife can’t see uniformity issues. She only cares that the screen is at least 50” and can stream Netflix. My top concern is uniformity. What is our best bet for under $1000? Will a high-end LED tv really have significantly better uniformity than a cheaper one? We’re going to look at some options in store tomorrow, but you can’t really see much with display TVs....

I would LOVE a TV that could make this game look good. It frankly looks like garbage on the LED sets I have tried.
 
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Dodgexander

Moderator
It just floors me that screen uniformity is still an issue in 2019. Does the technology to create a perfectly uniform panel just not exist? Or is it that other factors like brightness, contrast levels, and thinness get more attention? I read somewhere that uniformity was a lot less of an issue when televisions were thicker and heavier, but everybody is doing wall-mounting these days...
No, frankly there isn't and that is one reason why Panasonic stopped making high end LCD TVs in favour of OLEDs. You can never get away from there being a light behind the panel. The most costly LCDs still have complaints about uniformity.

When VA type LCD panels were bought into the market by Samsung some years ago it improved upon it drastically, they block more light through from behind compared to previous IPS type panels which made TVs a lot more uniform than they used to be.

The issue now is TVs are capable of pumping out a lot more brightness due to the HDR era and therefore they can't control it very well unless they have good local dimming.

It doesn't end there though, you can get a TV that doesn't have local dimming and its uniformity can excellent. Yes the picture quality as a whole won't be as good, especially with HDR and the entire screen will have raised black levels, but that doesn't mean its less uniform, just it will be greyer overall.

The Vizio was not rated well on rtings.com for local dimming, that is why I mentioned it. I think that you may be better off with local dimming on a different LCD. It doesn't matter if its backlt or not, its the local dimming that matters. With direct lit models you tend to get more blotchy screen uniformity whilst with edge lit models you get light visible more from the edges...neither is better than the other when it comes to how uniform the screen is and you can get edge lit models like the Samsung NU8000 with very good screen uniformity.

But its always a lottery anyway, your chances get higher as you buy up the ranges but you can always end up unlucky.

OLEDs despite all the talk of tint and colour banding tend to me much more uniform overall, that game you posted though does look like it would be a test of an OLEDs tint...although I have never witnessed any of it people seem to notice on the forum.
 

BrightLight2019

Novice Member
Thank you again everybody for the advice and feedback. I ended up purchasing an LG OLED B8 on Amazon. It was delivered yesterday and I've gotten a couple of hours of viewing out of it. The overall picture quality is a HUGE improvement over the Vizio. It has some banding on dark greys and some dark discoloration along the bottom left edge (primarily visible against deep reds), but the overall screen uniformity is like night and day versus the LEDs I've owned. There's also no tinting I've noticed as of yet. I can actually pan across a sky or a solid-colored background in a video game and not notice any irregularities. That Hohokum game I mentioned looks fantastic. I'd definitely recommend OLED to others out there who are concerned about screen uniformity.
 

Dodgexander

Moderator
Thank you again everybody for the advice and feedback. I ended up purchasing an LG OLED B8 on Amazon. It was delivered yesterday and I've gotten a couple of hours of viewing out of it. The overall picture quality is a HUGE improvement over the Vizio. It has some banding on dark greys and some dark discoloration along the bottom left edge (primarily visible against deep reds), but the overall screen uniformity is like night and day versus the LEDs I've owned. There's also no tinting I've noticed as of yet. I can actually pan across a sky or a solid-colored background in a video game and not notice any irregularities. That Hohokum game I mentioned looks fantastic. I'd definitely recommend OLED to others out there who are concerned about screen uniformity.
Fantastic to hear. Good to know that what I said was true to you, its science right? No lights behind the panel means for a much more uniform screen. Glad you are so happy with the TV:clap:
 

DevonMike

Active Member
It's so annoying that this issue persists, as is well known I returned over a dozen sets due to scrren issues I have zero tolerance to bandind and dse and would have returned dozens more until I got the right one, in my experience Panasonic and the Hisense tvs I tried fared the worse, eventually I settled on a Sony 7073 and believe me the uniformity is perfect. It really is frustrating with nowadays technology that the more these screens can do the more problems they have.
 

DevonMike

Active Member
It is annoying. The review here specifies the U657A uniformity to be quite good. I thought mine was broke. Not sure if to send it back.
Trouble is the review is just for the one TV not all of the same model and what is acceptable for one person certainly isn't for another. If you not happy.... Send it back
 

mitchiemasha

Active Member
Trouble is the review is just for the one TV not all of the same model and what is acceptable for one person certainly isn't for another. If you not happy.... Send it back
This is very true, I'm more concerned the next one is worse. Sending them back repeatably can get awkward, deliveries, collections, unpacking, repacking, set up. I'm curious how much of this uniformity can come about from attempting to attach the base. Richer has no NU8000 online which was my only other choice, the rest being too expensive.

Off topic question, is that logo image something of yours or do you just use it. I've seen it before in an unusual unrelated way.
 

mitchiemasha

Active Member
Richer have the NU8000 available via telesales, that could be an option?
That's how I got the 65U7A and I asked him about it at the time. He said they had some on order but no sign yet of exact date. Possibly store only. Unless he really wanted to sell me the 65U7A. Which was £150 cheaper. I do prefer the V stand as I won't be getting a sound bar.

My previous TV was plasma so you can imagine how hard it's been to find something half decent that's affordable. I couldn't go OLED as I use it for internet and PC.
 

DevonMike

Active Member
Haha, yeah, a Sleaford Mods logo.
This is very true, I'm more concerned the next one is worse. Sending them back repeatably can get awkward, deliveries, collections, unpacking, repacking, set up. I'm curious how much of this uniformity can come about from attempting to attach the base. Richer has no NU8000 online which was my only other choice, the rest being too expensive.

Off topic question, is that logo image something of yours or do you just use it. I've seen it before in an unusual unrelated way.
 

Dodgexander

Moderator
How are you testing the TV for uniformity? If you are expecting near perfect uniformity in HDR when the backlight is on full I don't think any TV is going to give you that. If you are have the TV setup in the wrong picture mode or the brightness very high in dark vieiwng environments it will look bad. Pardon the pun but uniformity is certainly a "grey area" that is for sure. What exactly is it that you notice with the poor uniformity on the Hisense? Leaking light from the sides? strips of light? blotchy-ness?

Moving from a Plasma is hard, not just from a motion perspective but I know how you feel. I had moved to a high end LCD in the Panasonic DX902 which even has good local dimming and I found the screen uniformity distracting in sport and that is even when overall my TV is a good specimen compared to others I have seen!

My recent TV (over here in the USA) is a cheap edge lit TCL Roku model and its uniformity is renknowned for being pretty poor. I have one that is better than others I think but I still notice it leaks some light in the bottom left corner.

Same with my computer monitor in the corners, although that is a lot worse as its an IPS display.

Putting the TV on the stand must be done delicately, never face an LCD TV on its back or front as that will move the panel. This is one reason that uniformity can be worsened in transport, especially if the courier does not understand or move the package correctly...or for those that stuff the box in their car horizontally.

There is similar concern for those who have their TVs wall mounted and slanted, over time the panel can get closer in some sections from the backlight than others.
 

mitchiemasha

Active Member
I could see it instantly when turning the TV on. I tested with the grey % images.

There's also a dark dot about the size of a finger tip, not in the picture, this glows around the top edge. The dot is unnoticeable with standard viewing. The TV must of been out at some point.

When a white box goes over the patchy area, this is when we can see the bottom lit LED trail up, down from the box (what's the term for that?), the local dimming test shows this. It's a huge shame because we can clearly see how well the TV would perform due to the rest of the screen.

I'd love to know how we're supposed to put the stand on these things?
 

Dodgexander

Moderator
I'd love to know how we're supposed to put the stand on these things?
You have to do it with 2 people, 3 if someone isn't strong enough to lift the TV. You lift the TV up keeping it vertical while the other person(s) attach the feet.

Its hard to tell from the photo but it looks like a massive patch of grey where the panel seems to have separated from the rear of the TV somehow, definitely return the TV, It for sure has a fault.
 

mitchiemasha

Active Member
Thank you. It did have black patches too but I've manged to reduce those.



It was quite hard to get a picture to show things accurately. This is from off left and that patch at the bottom isn't half as bad as the off right.



The Main difficulty is to show the straight line run off that a white box results in. Which is, but isn't, simply the edge light blooming. We can see what that should look like in other areas of the screen, (which i could live with) only in the grey patch do we get the straight defined line. The banding due to edge lit would normally fade.



I'm very curious if this has been out the box, there wasn't extra padding attached to the edges of the screen (as seen in samsung unboxings) and the box didn't have that heavy duty strap wrap round it. The top right corner of the foam that the screen was in was warn, possible rubbing in transit and wasn't neat to it.

Thank you for your time. I'm going to see if I can get a picture of the right side defect.
 

DevonMike

Active Member
Mate, I can see the issues on your TV, the Google image shows it the best, a clear dark area either side of the Google logo the height of the panel. I would defo get it swapped out. Welcome to the panel lottery.
 

mitchiemasha

Active Member
It's going back... And, I'm extra surprised about the service. The new one comes tomorrow when they collect the old one. I'm not convinced it's going to be much better, especially if it's had a rough time at sea.
 

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