how bad are scalers used in consumer panels/dvd/sky hd box etc?

[btsam]

i hope this post doesn't offend the goys on here using 'proper' scalers

i'm just listening to the current podcast regarding scalers (which is well worth a listen!!) and thought i would ask this possibly dumb/boring question?

with regards to the scalers built in to 'off the shelf products i.e. upscaling dvd's / plasma and lcd tv's and also the much talked about sky hd box;

how bad are they and more importantly, which ones are better than others

i.e.

my samsung plasma uses a genesis/faroujda for scaling/de-interlacing
i also own a samsung dvd-hd850 which uses a zoran-vaddis for video processing
and the new addition - sky hd which i believe uses a broadcom chip for video

bit of a 'mixed bag'??

in your valued opinion which one of the above chips does the better job at scaling/de-interlacing

at the moment i'm struggling a little to find the best overall 'compromise' between relying on the display to process and the external equipment to do the job

don't get me wrong if i had the funds i'd have bought a lumagen already but i've not won the lottery yet!

so far i've noticed that the scaler in the tv does a better job running via rgb scart for sd material than the sky hd box running 576p via hdmi!
also running the dvd player at 720p seems to get the best out of the player via hdmi vs 576i via component

i'm a little new to the whole film/video detection etc thing but i get the impression that good de-interlacing and scaling is a good place to start at


regards

sam

 

[choddo2006]

The Faroudja is ok for SD stuff, don't know the zoran vaddis although I hear the hd850 has an ok output. The Sky one is bobbins, doesn't surprise me at all that RGBSCART gives a better picture.

I think the Faroudja will do 3:2 film detection ok but don't quote me, pretty certain the Sky one doesn't bother and just bobs everything.

 

[btsam]

many thanks for the reply, i'm still experimenting with settings and connection types i.e analogue scart vs hdmi etc. it's ashame that the hdmi connections won't allow 576i for SD stuff as i'm pretty sure that would work better again

s

 

[choddo2006]

many thanks for the reply, i'm still experimenting with settings and connection types i.e analogue scart vs hdmi etc. it's ashame that the hdmi connections won't allow 576i for SD stuff as i'm pretty sure that would work better again

s

One of the joys of using a proper scaler

 

[btsam]

grrrr so i gather, didn't win the lottery last night though!!!

 

[samhain]

if only there was a scaler that could do 1080p @24fps that output's HDMI for less than a grand, now that would be nice

 

[Welwynnick]

if only there was a scaler that could do 1080p @24fps that output's HDMI for less than a grand, now that would be nice

You might not have to wait too long .......

Nick

 

[PaulWilliam]

A video processor should do a far better job than the TV panel, Sky box and a DVD player.

However, is there one that can (a) remove noise and artefacts (b) perform top quality de-interlacing (c) perform top quality scaling (d) allow calibration per input and (d) get around the 576i from HDMI problem for a sensible price e.g. well under £2K ?

Ideally video processors should do all the above, with the connectivity and the availability of SDI being the only variation between different models.

I now have the Lumagen HDP. It is very good but does fail on (a) noise and artefact reduction and (b) video de-interlacing (film de-interlacing is fine)

 

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

Lumgen HDP...accepts and outputs 1080p24 and is SRP of £975....and has been for a while.....so you just haven't been looking hard enough....

Gordon

 

[samhain]

Lumgen HDP...accepts and outputs 1080p24 and is SRP of £975....and has been for a while.....so you just haven't been looking hard enough....

Gordon

I could only see it with DVI not HDMI, unless a converter is all it needs? Will there be an updated version that is native HDMI?

 

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

For all intents and purposes the DVI and HDMI are interchangeable. The Lumagen DVI input ports behave as HDMI ports (except they do not accept audio obviously). The DVI output port doesn't do YUV output only RGB...but this is unlikely to be a problem to anyone.

No likelihood of an HDMI in and out version for a significant while...they are full pelt on Radiance development just now.

Gordon

 

[Quickbeam]

Further to the OP's original question, how many of the scalers in current TVs do 2:2 pulldown well on SD material? I know that 1080i deinterlacing in current gen displays is almost universally poor, but what about SD? Is there still a significant cost factor in providing quality SD deinterlacing?

 

[Gordon @ Convergent AV]

I can think of only one popular plasma manufacturer who has few units that do 2:2 film detection to a decent standard. That is Pioneer.

Gordon

 

[Quickbeam]

Thanks Gordon. So the scaler manufacturers will be in business for some time to come.

If a display's VP can't do 2:2 it presumably won't do motion adaptive deinterlacing either (per pixel or per frame). AIUI it's essentially the same process: the algorithm looks for motion between fields, and if no motion is detected across the frame then 2:2 pulldown is the result (or partial 2:2 if the source is video and the algorithm is per pixel).