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How about a list of Plasma Panels/TV that are Hi-Def compatible

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by Taz69, Jan 7, 2005.

  1. Taz69

    Taz69
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    Hiya all,

    I seen this over in the LCD forum and thought it would be a good idea to have 1 here aswell, the idea is that this thread is updated with the models that are Hi-Def compatible.

    DISPLAYS NEED TO HAVE:

    DVI-HDCP or HDMI
    AND
    720p/50, 720p/60, 1080i/50, 1080i/60

    Let the fun begin, I will update this post with model numbers etc, please state the make, model number and resolutions available.

    Thanks
    Taz :thumbsup:
     
  2. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    Pioneer 435 FDE or XDE
    720p/50, 720p/60, 1080i/50, 1080i/60



    Got a feeling this is going to be a short list :)
     
  3. Rob20

    Rob20
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    Perhaps their max res could be provided also. Aren't some 480 res screens capable of scaling down hi-def material?
     
  4. Nick_UK

    Nick_UK
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    You are basing this whole thing on an assumption. There is no European standard for HDTV. There is one European company supplying HDTV to Europe, and that is using 1080i/50 and 720p/50. However, this company has close ties with Pioneer, who just happen to be one of the v. small number of manufacturers who produce sets capable of this standard ;)

    Since no British companies have actually announced what standard will be used by them for the UK, anyone posting "what sets need to have" are indulging in pure speculation.
     
  5. Taz69

    Taz69
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    Thta bit was taken from the LCD thread, also I think as Hi-Def is available now through Euro 1080 I would have thought some sort of standard would be set.

    Taz
     
  6. dave0523

    dave0523
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    Don't forget the 434! :hiya:
     
  7. Nick_UK

    Nick_UK
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    A dangerous assumption ! Look what happened to the first digital TV broadcaster (BSB).......... whatever happened to good ole D-MAC ? :rolleyes:

    As I said before, Pioneer are a major partner in the Euro1080 service, and they just happen to be one of the few manufacturers of TV's capable of displaying the standard in use :suicide:

    If Sky were to do that, people would be shouting "Monopoly" :devil:
     
  8. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    Hold on, didn't Sky announce in a press release that they would be using 1080i/50 and 720p/50 with HDCP for the majority of programming????
     
  9. Pat Marcus

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    panasonic PHD7 ?
     
  10. Neil F Holland

    Neil F Holland
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    Whilst I agree with Nick's scepticism, we have to assume, until further notice, that Sky do indend to broadcast 720p / 1080i at 50 Hz with HDCP...
    So (for now) that is the standard we should use when judging display future proofing IMHO...

    To add to the list NEC XM3 and XR3 do 720p (50) and 1080i (50) but do not currently do native resolution (1024 x 768) at 50 (only 60)... Heard they were looking at sorting this, any news?
     
  11. Nick_UK

    Nick_UK
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    Please point me to it, because I've not seen it.

    On 9th June 2004, a press release included the following from Sky:
    "The premium service will launch in 2006 with both a set of dedicated HD channels and access to selected events produced in HD format. Further details of BSkyB's proposed technology and programming offering in HDTV will be announced in due course. In addition to the package of channels to be offered by Sky, other broadcasters on the digital satellite platform will also be able to take advantage of its HDTV capabilities to provide an enhanced experience to their viewers."

    As far as I'm aware, there has been no official release of technical information.
     
  12. Nick_UK

    Nick_UK
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    Err... why do we have to assume that ? When Mr Murdoch started the Sky service, PAL was already yesterday's news, and all the talk was about digital TV. He (or at least his marketing bods) chose analogue PAL, even though there was better quality already available, because he (they) knew that everybody that owned a TV in the UK at that time could display a PAL image. A rival service offering better quality pictures fell by the wayside, and Sky won the battle. Sky eventually bought out what remained of the digital service.

    Now, you are an entrepreneur who is going to launch a HDTV service in the UK. Your marketing boys tell you that the majority of TV's sold in the UK will only handle 60Hz HDTV. What would you do ? Bearing in mind the technical decisions that Sky marketing have made in the past ? I know which one I would go for.......
     
  13. Taz69

    Taz69
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    Nick_UK Err... why do we have to assume that ?

    at the end of the day, whether sky get their act together or not, Hi-Def will be here in the form of broadcast or DVD material, so surely the more future proofed we are today the better. why spend £1500 on a panel if for £200 more you can get more future proofing, going by certain standards, IMHO

    Taz
     
  14. grahamtriggs

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    If you want a 'European standard', then this is about as close as you are going to get:

    http://www.ebu.ch/trev_300-ibc-2004.html
    http://www.ebu.ch/trev_300-wood.pdf

    Progressive *all* the way, even at 1080 if possible, favouring 720p over 1080i, and all done at 50hz.
     
  15. Tantalus

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    If Sky do go for 1080i/50 and 720p/50, would there still be a need for a scaler (such as Lumagen) for the 435XDE?
     
  16. peezee

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    That's what I thought, since there was no clear definition of what "High Definition TV" is in the introduction, this topic would quickly shift to that discussion... bingo!

    Nick_UK, today we know more than you seem to imply. Unless you have specific information otherwise from a very well placed source, and if it's the case then please share your information -if any- with us.

    Europe TV system is and will continue to be 50Hz based for the time being. There is not a single chance in hell it's going to change anytime soon. While I'm typing this, European broadcasters are getting equipped with HDCam's and other Video editing/production/broadcast hardware and software that is ALL 50Hz based. And that's plain fact.
    So now we have 50Hz.

    Then, the definition/resolution. Well, in the US most HD networks run at 1080i60, with the exception of ESPN and a bunch of others at 720p60. Ok, 720p is known to be good for fast action (sports for instance) while 1080i is said to be better for most movies (fine details). The EBU recommends progressive formats only but 1080p is still further out in time. And since both 720p and 1080i formats require ~ the same bitrate/bandwidth, there's a good chance both will be used.
    So now we've got 720p and 1080i.

    Of course, US originated stuff (live sports events like Superbowl, "NTSC" HD DVD's/BluRay's, ...) will continue to be 60Hz based. So it would be a good idea to also include 720p60 and 1080i60 in the requirements for HD, though not for European HDTV proper.

    Then, the compression scheme. MPEG2 is already in use in the US and Japan, but MPEG4 based codecs (H264/AVC, VC1, DivX) are also making headways into the HD realm. In France, DTTV will be MPEG2 based initially for free channels, then MPEG2+MPEG4 for pay channels incl. HDTV (b/o 2006 probably). HDTV via ADSL2+ will be popular in urban areas (we're already starting to get 20+Mbps d/l and 1Mbps u/l ADSL service in Paris (on top of free TV and free metro. France phone calls), all for 29.90€/mo), most probably MPEG4 based as well.
    So now we've got MPEG2 and MPEG4.

    Then, the connections. Ah, the connections... At this point, everything leads to sources providing real High Definition (not upscaled SD, not downrez'ed HD) video via, and only via, an HDCP protected digital connection, i.e. either DVI-HDCP or HDMI. Is this going to change in the future? Will there be "backstreet" devices or hacks to workaround this protection? Possibly, but no-one knows for sure, and even then not everybody will have the access or the will/risk to use those, so right now that's what we have to deal with.
    So now we've got DVI-HDCP and HDMI.


    Well, that's not too bad for a start. Chances are, if today you acquire a flat screen that does support these "things" above then you're simply in a much better position thant if it does not. No 100% guarantee this will be enough, no guarantee either this won't be overkilled, we just don't know for sure - but why not put all chances on your side...?

    Which leads us back to the original topic/subject here, how cool is that...? :cool:
     
  17. grahamtriggs

    grahamtriggs
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    Completely, totally and utterly irrelevant. As *proven* by the current Sky service.

    1) It's a digital broadcast - but 625 lines / 50hz, ie. conforming to PAL standard.

    2) Current digiboxes not only output to SCART via RGB and(/or) composite - which a lot of sets back in the day could handle - they all have RF modulators, so can drive *any* PAL TV from as far back as I can remember.

    So what has the ownership of TVs got to do with Sky's decisions of the time? Absolutely nothing (at least not in terms of what you are stating).
     
  18. Likvid

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    Lots of confusion here.

    Sky have announced that they will broadcast in 720p/50Hz and 1080i/50Hz.

    They will NOT support these resolutions on ANY analogue output.

    All HDTV broadcasts from SKY will flag HDCP, and according to the license of using the HDCP protocol ALL analogue outputs are closed.

    This is FACT!

    All this was said on the press conference Sky had with the journalists declaring their HDTV plans for 2006.

    So, if you want to buy a screen capable of this, may be some more plasma as well that supports Sky HD, then you should buy:

    Pioneer 434/504/435/505

    NEC 42XR3 and 50.

    LG

    May be some more, please add to the list!
     
  19. grahamtriggs

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    Also, see this:

    http://www.hdtvforum.org/en/
     
  20. grahamtriggs

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    *need* is a bit excessive. 'Strong reason', and yes, that reason will still exist when Sky broadcast in HD, because not everything will be delivered in HD from day one.
     
  21. grahamtriggs

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    As you say, rather pointless for European broadcasts, although games consoles may make use of 60hz. Regardless, it's a bit like the situation on CRTs nowadays - it's needed for US/Japan, so we'll get it for 'free' anyway.

    I think it's a strong possibility, but it's far from certain - it's the one thing we know the least about. It's also the one thing we really don't give a toss about, because decompression is handled via the STB, and we'll have an uncompressed feed to the display.

    The only time it becomes relevant is if somebody wants to build the receiver into their TV - ie. such as the DTT sets that are available now. But that's a long way off, and frankly pretty much irrelevant until it actually happens - at which point it will be 'right' regardless of what scheme is used.
     
  22. hornydragon

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    sky do operate a lowest common denominator system (or have to this point quanitity over quality) I have given trying to argue that lauching a service most poeple cannot use will be doomed and i cant see sky doing that (besides most of the UK population would see 576p over component a compatibility issue) i think HDCP will come inon HD content but not for a few years...........and a box without some sort of analogue interface is going to be a very slow seller..........
     
  23. Nick_UK

    Nick_UK
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    Please point us to the link on the Sky corporate website. I can only see the press release giving their intentions to start a HDTV service in 2006 :confused:

    Well, Graham, on the first link I can see many references to 1080i and 720p, but can't see a single reference to either 50Hz or 60Hz there. On your second link, I see the words "It certainly would be attractive to have a common worldwide standard and there would be benefits in using 60 Hz in terms of motion portrayal; and, for some types of display, large area flicker would be reduced. Weighed against this is the higher bitrate that an equivalent 60 Hz system would need. On balance, it is difficult to make the case in a Europe where there is serious frequency congestion for what may be unnecessarily high bitrates. It is also true that those countries that have already started HD have a plurality of standards, so even adoption of a 60 Hz picture rate would not bring a common worldwide standard. If might have been feasible if there were universal adoption of a single progressive 60 Hz system, but we have been told by the 60 Hz world that this is impossible to expect."

    So they actually say that the adoption of a worldwide 60Hz system would be an advantage, but could be a problem where bandwidth was tight. Bandwidth is not usually a problem on satellite.

    Now, I don't know any more than what Sky have already told us, but I would appreciate it if anyone posts any more "FACTS" they would have the decency to give us links to the information, so we can verify it for ourselves, since there is so much speculation flying around.
     
  24. Likvid

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    BSkyB apparently announced that its service and HDTV decoder box will support BOTH 720p/50Hz AND 1080i/25Hz high definition formats, rather than just going with 720p as was previously anticipated, as Sky stated that the vast majority of HDTV programming will only be viewable if carried via HDMI or DVI connections that support the HDCP digital rights protection system. In other words, if your projector or flat panel screen only has component video inputs or an HDMI/DVI jack NOT compatible with the HDCP system, it will not show the majority of Sky’s HD services.

    http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/shownews.php?id=7231
     
  25. grahamtriggs

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    Well Nick, if you are going to selectively quote, it would have been helpful to include the paragraph immediately preceding it:

    "One of the fundamental questions condsidered by the EBU Project Group was whether Europe should change to a 60hz system for the sake of commonality with the 60hz world"

    That put's your quote in context, and essentially means they thought about it because it might be a good idea, but dismissed it because it's pointless.

    There is only *one* other reference to 60hz in the whole of that document, and that is simply where they are relating the experience of US broadcasters in using progressive scan for better motion potrail - the 60hz part doesn't really come into it.

    The rest of the document is very liberally sprinkled with references to 720p and 1080p at 50 hz.
     
  26. Nick_UK

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    So, basically, what you are saying is that you think Sky are going to start a HDTV service, using a standard that only about 10% of big screen owners are going to be able to use ? You don't think that their marketing and research people will do any research into the TV's currently on sale and in use ?

    That would be suicide :suicide:
     
  27. El Geet

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    Interesting debate...personally I would be inclined to go with the EBU's take which is quite clearly the recommendation of 720p/50. By the time Sky decide to broadcast HD one would assume many more displays will be capable of such a standard. It's pretty clear to me the only reason they're not now is that there is barely a reason to do so...

    On a slight tangent 720p translates as 1260x720 in terms of resolution, right? How is the 435xde (for example) capable of 720p when it's res is 1024x768?
     
  28. Taz69

    Taz69
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    I dont think SKY can do anything about the Hi-Def standards, they are 720p 1081i etc etc, I reckon its down to the manufacturer's making the panels at a lower spec per price instead of supplying what it should be about, you only have to look at most of the widescreen lcd, most are 1280x720 etc whereas most of the plasma's are 852x480 hence why many plasmas will not handle hi-def in native form without the use of expensive scalers etc.

    Taz
     
  29. hornydragon

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    most displays will scale to native res and refresh all pionneer plasma TV's do and it is the quality of this conversion that makes or breaks the PQ
    very very few displays will run a video signal at native with zero conversion......... and many cannot accept video at there native speccs via any connection...............
     
  30. Nick_UK

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    The problem is that the screens are made for the 60Hz market, which makes up 80% or more of the world's sales. Few manufacturers are going to invest in the production of 50Hz screens unless they think they are going to see a decent return on their investment. Pioneer have invested in the Euro1080 service, which could also be the reason why they think they will see good sales of their plasma TV's.
     

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