Housing association and police behaviour

[Gaslight]

Don't talk nonsense. There's a small HA estate not far from here and one of the families there are almost feral. Their kids have caused no end of problems with the police, out at all hours (they were apparently kicking off at 4am last week), and it usually ends up around here for some reason. The HA have had a lot of complaints, the police are fed up with it (there was the possibility of the house being "closed" on the basis of antisocial behaviour), but there's nothing much that can be done (ironically the kids who are the main problem are actually preventing much in the way of action due to some responsibility of care or something).

If they're not going to kick someone out like that, I can't see another HA making moves to kick a tenant out over what is effectively a disagreement. It's remained relatively civil (even the confrontation with the HA staff seemed relatively polite all things considered), the guy is trying to handle it properly, and not creating any other problems so why would they kick him out?

As long as the guy is up to date with rent, and not causing any other problems they're unlikely to try and kick him out. HA's have a lot of responsibility due to them dealing with a lot of vulnerable people, and are more or less endorsed by the council. They're not lone landlords with a portfolio, who would much rather kick someone out than deal with an issue like an adult.

To be honest, you have to really try hard to get kicked out of a HA place, and the only time I've seen it happen is when either the police have used their powers of closure (requires court) or the tenant has been crazily behind on rent (or any service charges - some places provide things like unlimited heating and hot water for a small fee). My mum is a solicitor, and occasionally has to deal with house associations, and she's always said they're far easier to work with because there's things they have to do to meet their requirements, and can't just throw a S21 and kick the tenant out.

Sounds like you've never come up against the bureaucracy in these types of circumstances, nor had any personal experience with housing associations and the like. Much of what you have written about HA evictions is very wrong and your thoughts are essentially part of the problem.

 

[nvingo]

So what of the responses from the HA in this situation has lead you to believe that they act rationally and in the interests of their tenants well-being?

To evict someone they must have a valid reason then a watertight case - proving procedures correctly followed. It appears this HA can't manage the latter and as yet don't have the former, they've no chance of not being hauled over the coals if they try in this case.

 

[Tight Git]

I really think you should get your local MP interested in this case as it sounds just the sort of thing they welcome due to all the good publicity if they solve the problem (sorry to sound so cynical!).

Some years ago, my son (autistic with learning difficulties) ignored a series of letters from HMRC and was eventually threatened with court action if he didn't pay £6,000 overdue tax.

I got my MP involved and eventually the debt was cancelled and we even received compensation.

But the best bit was a letter of apology from HMRC, which I have framed and hanging on the wall!

 

[Gaslight]

To evict someone they must have a valid reason then a watertight case - proving procedures correctly followed. It appears this HA can't manage the latter and as yet don't have the former, they've no chance of not being hauled over the coals if they try in this case.

Who do you think holds them to account, a disabled person who is struggling just to exist? That is how all these systems work, to ensure that people are not able to fight the systems.

You definitely need to get a bit of a reality check as you are commenting on something from a purely academia point of view, and not the reality.

 

[MaryWhitehouse]

To evict someone they must have a valid reason then a watertight case - proving procedures correctly followed. It appears this HA can't manage the latter and as yet don't have the former, they've no chance of not being hauled over the coals if they try in this case.

It's a good theory. Unfortunately as in employment there will always be a 'legitimate' reason that can be used if the landlord wants to. Doesn't have to be the real reason.

 

[crazy_1201]

I don’t believe prescriptive easements can be formed if permission was granted at some point.

 

[nvingo]

Who do you think holds them to account, a disabled person who is struggling just to exist?

That is why support is available to them, over and above the Citizens' Advice or Solicitor routes the rest of us would have to use; Community Psychiatric Nurse, Social Worker, the OP, can all get involved and set up multi-party meetings to resolve, which can mean getting the case prioritised and HA decision overturned.
Repercussions for HAs breaking the terms of their licence can go beyond fines.

 

[Gaslight]

That is why support is available to them, over and above the Citizens' Advice or Solicitor routes the rest of us would have to use; Community Psychiatric Nurse, Social Worker, the OP, can all get involved and set up multi-party meetings to resolve, which can mean getting the case prioritised and HA decision overturned.
Repercussions for HAs breaking the terms of their licence can go beyond fines.

Again, academic.

From this statement, it is shown you have no real world experience in being disabled, living with disability, or having to deal with systems, therefore I feel your comments are of no worth with regards to this thread sadly.

You sound like a politician.

 

[MaryWhitehouse]

That is why support is available to them, over and above the Citizens' Advice or Solicitor routes the rest of us would have to use; Community Psychiatric Nurse, Social Worker, the OP, can all get involved and set up multi-party meetings to resolve, which can mean getting the case prioritised and HA decision overturned.
Repercussions for HAs breaking the terms of their licence can go beyond fines.

Do you have real life experience of this working? In far, far too many cases this support does not exist.

 

[Thug]

Not had chance to read every comment, so sorry if this has been asked already.

A fire risk is not necessarily something at risk of setting on fire.
Its a risk to other residents should a fire break out.
Look at it this way, its the dead of night and a fire breaks out, the whole communal area fills up with smoke, all the power goes off so its pitch black. The only way to get out (whilst panicking and struggling to breath) is by touch and shuffling your feet and muscle memory. Hard enough if you are able bodied, now how about if you are elderly and also have other residents wanting to push past you. The last thing you want is for someone to either trip over something in the hallway, or worse still your friend wanting to remove his property from the stairwell to try and save it whilst others are trying to get passed.

The shopping trolley. Is it one of those small trolleys that elderly pull around with them, or is it a trolley stolen from a local shop?

 

[nvingo]

From this statement, it is shown you have no real world experience in being disabled, living with disability, or having to deal with systems

I have first-hand experience of meetings involving social workers, doctors, psychiatrists, CPNs, police, teachers and support workers as it pertains to getting and keeping a person with mental health diagnoses in social housing.

therefore I feel your comments are of no worth with regards to this thread sadly.

 

[MaryWhitehouse]

I have first-hand experience of meetings involving social workers, doctors, psychiatrists, CPNs, police, teachers and support workers as it pertains to getting and keeping a person with mental health diagnoses in social housing.

Then that client was very lucky.

 

[morenish]

Again, academic.

From this statement, it is shown you have no real world experience in being disabled, living with disability, or having to deal with systems, therefore I feel your comments are of no worth with regards to this thread sadly.

You sound like a politician.

Well said, totally agree

 

[nvingo]

Well said, totally agree

Housing association and police behaviour post#61

 

[Haliday9]

I dispute what some posters are saying! nvingo definitely has some experience of living with mental health problems judging by some of his posting habits!

Just jokin nvingo

 

[nvingo]

some experience of living with mental health problems judging by some of his posting habits!

It's OK

It was someone I thought I knew well.

 

[iqoniq]

Nicely put. Been a while since I’ve seen a ‘My Mum says’ post. So what of the responses from the HA in this situation has lead you to believe that they act rationally and in the interests of their tenants well-being?

That it's not in the HA's interests to kick tenants out. There's actually ways to prolong eviction, and while it will eventually reach a point where a non-peaceful eviction will occur, it ends up costing a lot of money as well as lost rent. I've seen this happen and the time period can reach in excess of a year. If you've got someone throwing the law about, even the Freeman of the Land guff, it's generally a sign they won't leave of their own accord. As long as the rent is being paid and they're not causing a raft of problems, then there's no point in antagonising them.

As for my mum saying something, she's a solicitor so I'm going to take what she says seriously. Maybe it's because she's a solicitor and talking calmly to them that leads to being able to work something out. I'm not saying the guy in question hasn't tried that, but one person's mildly irritated can be another person's screaming and shouting. There are also people who eff and jeff as it's just their natural speech, and people just don't like it. There's a lot of factors that can sway opinion even though they shouldn't.

At the moment, due to Grenfell Tower a lot of housing providers (councils, HAs, private landlords) are currently making sure their multiple occupancy blocks aren't fire hazards. They're also not restricting it to just cladding, but checking for other hazards such as choke points or obstructions. Even if an item is out of the way, then it gets dealt with the same way as a "genuine" obstruction as they can't be seen to be making exceptions. If the residents think that a certain place is safe to put stuff, you end up with a mass of items, which can cause even more problems. I know the OP says there are others in the same block with stuff outside their doors and I can't comment on that, and it could be they're having action taken (it doesn't have to happen at the same time), but haven't mentioned it.

Can someone also explain to me, if HAs are kicking people out left, right and centre, why is there such a long waiting list, and why hasn't it been reported by the mainstream media? With a churn rate like some people are saying, then the books should be clearing pretty quickly. There should also be a massive outcry and it's a definite public interest story.

 

[morenish]

Ok, I worked as a Support Team Manager for 22 years in a Residential home that provided care, support for Adults with learning disabilities, physical disabilities, health problems and challenging behaviour, with mental health issues. In that time I have attended so many meetings with every professional there is.

Some of these professionals were ok, some were clueless, never having worked on the ‘shop floor’ so to speak. It was so obvious to my colleagues and myself that so many had been to college, university etc, learnt everything out of a book and knew nothing about real life.

They all did 9 - 5. They had all weekends, bank holidays, Christmas off etc etc, They constantly arranged meetings around themselves, blind to the fact that working in the care section is 24, 7, 365, and we were constantly changing our shifts to accommodate.

It became quite funny to us when these so-called professionals came face to face with our residents. They immediately became uncomfortable, embarrassed, unsure what to do. They lacked any form of communication.

This is the reality. As a team, with plenty of life experiences amongst us we fought tooth and nail for the rights and quality of life for our residents. The battles were mainly with the pen pushers and the higher echelons of the managers, which in my opinion, were so top heavy with bodies, that they sucked up most of the budgets that were meant for our residents. I think they are known as bureaucrats. It’s the same old story, too many chiefs and not enough indians.

Our residents were told that this home was for life, but then came another management budget exercise - care in the community. The residents are now scattered all around, have lost contact with their friends and I have recently discovered that their home, a fantastic resource, with houses and bungalows surrounding a daycare unit, has been demolished by the Council. It was built in 1986.

 

[leamspaceman]

Sorry for not giving an update on this.

My clients parents have been dealing with things and I didn't get a chance to catch up with him until yesterday.

Effectively, the local MP is now dealing with this.

The housing association have produced a version of events that is completely different to what actually happened based on interviews with their staff.

Despite being sent the actual timeline of events, with RING doorbell videos as proof, they are refusing to accept what happened.

They are also refuting the physical injuries my client received due to being manhandled by his housing association staff. They've been sent photographs of them.

So, it's all in a state of flux right now with the housing association ignoring irrefutable proof effectively.

My client is much better although still quite shaken even two weeks later.

Once there are any updates I'll post here.

 

[leamspaceman]

Ok, I worked as a Support Team Manager for 22 years in a Residential home that provided care, support for Adults with learning disabilities, physical disabilities, health problems and challenging behaviour, with mental health issues. In that time I have attended so many meetings with every professional there is.

Some of these professionals were ok, some were clueless, never having worked on the ‘shop floor’ so to speak. It was so obvious to my colleagues and myself that so many had been to college, university etc, learnt everything out of a book and knew nothing about real life.

They all did 9 - 5. They had all weekends, bank holidays, Christmas off etc etc, They constantly arranged meetings around themselves, blind to the fact that working in the care section is 24, 7, 365, and we were constantly changing our shifts to accommodate.

It became quite funny to us when these so-called professionals came face to face with our residents. They immediately became uncomfortable, embarrassed, unsure what to do. They lacked any form of communication.

This is the reality. As a team, with plenty of life experiences amongst us we fought tooth and nail for the rights and quality of life for our residents. The battles were mainly with the pen pushers and the higher echelons of the managers, which in my opinion, were so top heavy with bodies, that they sucked up most of the budgets that were meant for our residents. I think they are known as bureaucrats. It’s the same old story, too many chiefs and not enough indians.

Our residents were told that this home was for life, but then came another management budget exercise - care in the community. The residents are now scattered all around, have lost contact with their friends and I have recently discovered that their home, a fantastic resource, with houses and bungalows surrounding a daycare unit, has been demolished by the Council. It was built in 1986.

Couldn't have put it better myself...

Thanks for your input and it's a sad conclusion to a heartbreaking story.

 

[Gaslight]

Sorry for not giving an update on this.

My clients parents have been dealing with things and I didn't get a chance to catch up with him until yesterday.

Effectively, the local MP is now dealing with this.

The housing association have produced a version of events that is completely different to what actually happened based on interviews with their staff.

Despite being sent the actual timeline of events, with RING doorbell videos as proof, they are refusing to accept what happened.

They are also refuting the physical injuries my client received due to being manhandled by his housing association staff. They've been sent photographs of them.

So, it's all in a state of flux right now with the housing association ignoring irrefutable proof effectively.

My client is much better although still quite shaken even two weeks later.

Once there are any updates I'll post here.

Fairly standard behaviour sadly, they will hope that the client will eventually run out of energy/health to compete with them, I see it every day.

It's great he has some help on his side with you and his folks (which can't be easy on them as I imagine they are fairly elderly as well), hopefully the local MP will keep an interest long enough for them to be forced into honestly.

Give a person an inch of power of someone else, and it will often be abused even more so when its a privatised company.