Homeopathy

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by wookielover, Mar 13, 2013.

  1. wookielover

    wookielover
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Messages:
    2,604
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Ratings:
    +384
    Does anybody here actually believe in this ?
    Ive got someone at work who has a heart condition , has stopped convential and tested meds and is now taking some rubbish prescribed by a homeopathic doctor. Ive tried to explain that it is just heavily dilluted water but its fallen on deaf ears .
     
  2. kav

    kav
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    25,488
    Products Owned:
    10
    Products Wanted:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Scotland
    Ratings:
    +13,816
    How do you dilute water? :D

    Yes, it's total nonsense, but people will believe what they want to believe, regardless of the utterly overwhelming body of evidence opposing their beliefs. You should him or her a copy of Bad Science, or even just send them a link to the homeopathy articles on the site.
     
  3. SteakAndCake

    SteakAndCake
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2012
    Messages:
    6,857
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +6,848
    I believe in placebo and placebo works ergo homoeopathy works in those that think it works. Do I think that the magic water actually does anything at a chemical or biological level? Of course not, it's nonsense.

    I'm torn on whether I think the NHS should fund it. On the one hand it doesn't sit well with me to see public money spent on treatment that has no scientific basis (scientist recognise placebo is a thing but no one actually knows how it works) but on the other, if it helps people, I don't see the harm.
     
  4. blue max

    blue max
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2006
    Messages:
    12,938
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +4,308
    There are always some who say nothing else worked, but that did. Same with acupuncture - another one to add to the list of wonder cures.

    If it's just down to the placebo effect, just give them water* :smashin:

    *Actually that might help if they are just dehydrated.
     
  5. imightbewrong

    imightbewrong
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    53,743
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Romford-ish
    Ratings:
    +34,526
    > if it helps people, I don't see the harm.

    How can it 'not do harm' if people think it is better than taking real medicine, as in the OP?
     
  6. kav

    kav
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    25,488
    Products Owned:
    10
    Products Wanted:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Scotland
    Ratings:
    +13,816
    I'd be dubious about the placebo effect improving a heart condition, it seems to be most effective regarding depression, pain, stress and other psychological issues, but less so with physical afflictions.
     
  7. lucasisking

    lucasisking
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2007
    Messages:
    23,699
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    177
    Location:
    Isle of Wight
    Ratings:
    +19,852
    Homeopathy is supposed to work according to various 'dilution factors'- the greater the dilution, the more effective the remedy. I wonder how they manage to acheive some of the more, er, incredible levels of dilution.

    I remember reading about a scientist (a real one) who worked out that the claimed dilution factor of one 'remedy' being peddled could only be acheived by having one drop of medicine...

    ...in a sphere of water the diameter of the solar system

    ...multiplied by two billion.

    :eek::eek:

    As Kav says, its total ********.
     
  8. wookielover

    wookielover
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    Messages:
    2,604
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Ratings:
    +384
    Ive have tried to explain for days , it seems. My recent example is this ;

    The NHS use NICE to determine that medicine is safe and cost effective. Medicine which has undergone stringent testing under controlled enviroments to determine the cause and effect v's any side affects. After a long process the medicine will be bought/adopted by the NHS and prescribed if necassary.
    On occasion medicine works, has little side effects but is too expensive for the NHS or it works but at a very low success rate . In those cases you can buy it privately with a Dr's intervention and prescription.

    Now imagine how expensive this process is , how long it takes.

    If Homeopathy worked , why would the NHS just not prescibe there 'medicine' bear in mind that it is a small , minute amount of something diluted up to 1000000 x in distilled water ? how cheap is that ?

    To me that makes sense , but no , nothing . I just get " you dont need a lot of something to prove it its works , people just do those test becuase of the side affects " blah blah blah . Im really banging my head agaisnt a brick wall.

    I dont want to prove im right for ego or anything , i just dont want her to waste her money or risk her health on rubbish. Im honestly concerned.

    She was telling me how her Homeopathy 'dr' and i use the term ' dr' loosely use to work at guys ( back in 1968 ) is qualified , blah blah .
    But ive tried to explain that if i was making money from water id have a go too. Qualifications from the prescriber does not mean that it works or is not just bo44ox
     
  9. HouseTonyStark

    HouseTonyStark
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2006
    Messages:
    2,906
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +541
    my general view on this is that there is a term applied to alternative medicines that have been proven to work:

    Medicine.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  10. imightbewrong

    imightbewrong
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    53,743
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Romford-ish
    Ratings:
    +34,526
    There is one dilution which Ben Goldacre determined that if you had all the matter in the universe, you would still be be 'overdosing' when adding a single atom of the original source.

    It's just so hokey though - it's not just the dilution but that's not enough alone, you then have to do the 'quickening' - i.e. slapping the original container with a leather strip to help impart the 'memory' of the cure.
     
  11. lucasisking

    lucasisking
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2007
    Messages:
    23,699
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    177
    Location:
    Isle of Wight
    Ratings:
    +19,852
  12. pRot3us

    pRot3us
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Messages:
    6,740
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +5,592
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2014
  13. DPinBucks

    DPinBucks
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2008
    Messages:
    6,404
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Burnham, Bucks
    Ratings:
    +1,959
    What I've never understood about homeopathy is, if this 'magic water' works at super dilutions, why don't they just pour a cupful into the sea and cure everybody, everywhere?
     
  14. lucasisking

    lucasisking
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2007
    Messages:
    23,699
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    177
    Location:
    Isle of Wight
    Ratings:
    +19,852
    Maybe the Earth's oceans aren't volumous enough to guarantee an effective dilution :)
     
  15. imightbewrong

    imightbewrong
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    53,743
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Romford-ish
    Ratings:
    +34,526
    Better hope no-one drops a cyanide tablet into the sea - that would be an ELE
     
  16. krish

    krish
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2005
    Messages:
    35,945
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Astral Crescent, Zoovroozlechester, Betelgeuse V
    Ratings:
    +16,752
    Guess what the charlatans are up to now (and I'm not talking about Tim Burgess and his band) ...
    Incredible!

    The DM seems to have jumped the fence here, as it usually publishes in favour of this quackery with minor celeb health stories about them swearing by homeopathy as a cure for their BSitis or general articles suggesting their efficacy
    Article based on this American video of 13th Oct
    [contains swearing, usually "no fudgeing medicine"]

    You won't believe what happens when...

    - linked to this US petition of hers
     
  17. stephenbarnes

    stephenbarnes
    Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2013
    Messages:
    4,864
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +846
    I wonder could I do that with gold.

    Dip a gold ring in a pool of water then sell the "gold water" for £1000 for 125ml.
     
  18. stephenbarnes

    stephenbarnes
    Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2013
    Messages:
    4,864
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Ratings:
    +846
    Sorry to say but darwin award..
     
  19. imightbewrong

    imightbewrong
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    53,743
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Romford-ish
    Ratings:
    +34,526
    Homeopathy is more convincing if you listen to it explained through extremely expensive hdmi or optical cables.
     
    • Like Like x 6
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • List
  20. imightbewrong

    imightbewrong
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    53,743
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Romford-ish
    Ratings:
    +34,526
    Seen it before - very funny but this one is "not available in your country"
     
  21. Toko Black

    Toko Black
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2010
    Messages:
    7,407
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +3,487
    What's more worrying is the fact that no matter how good we are at filtering our water supplies .... you are still going to get the 'memory' of all the urine and faeces that has ever been flushed in the history of mankind :eek:
    ... in other words, it's like drinking London tap water.
     
  22. pRot3us

    pRot3us
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Messages:
    6,740
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +5,592
    Link now updated.
     
  23. shodan

    shodan
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    12,056
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    shoeburyness
    Ratings:
    +7,518
    And the latest craze sweeping the nation is Herbalife... Otherwise know as, pyramid selling.
     
  24. krish

    krish
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2005
    Messages:
    35,945
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Astral Crescent, Zoovroozlechester, Betelgeuse V
    Ratings:
    +16,752
    That scam's been around a few decades hasn't it? Though they've now got legal troubles and a US federal investigation.
     
  25. SteveCritten

    SteveCritten
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2009
    Messages:
    10,956
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Caistor Lincs
    Ratings:
    +4,641
  26. DPinBucks

    DPinBucks
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2008
    Messages:
    6,404
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Burnham, Bucks
    Ratings:
    +1,959
    Better try half a cup, then, to be on the safe side.
     
  27. Sonic67

    Sonic67
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    45,622
    Products Owned:
    11
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Home
    Ratings:
    +24,349
  28. imightbewrong

    imightbewrong
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2005
    Messages:
    53,743
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Romford-ish
    Ratings:
    +34,526
    Sorry - showing your ignorance there :D The memory isn't instilled until you have performed the succession:

    In producing remedies for diseases, homeopaths use a process called "dynamisation" or "potentisation", whereby a substance is diluted with alcohol or distilled water and then vigorously shaken by 10 hard strikes against an elastic body in a process homeopaths call "succussion".[8][72] Hahnemann advocated using substances that produce symptoms like those of the disease being treated, but found that undiluted doses intensified the symptoms and exacerbated the condition, sometimes causing dangerous toxic reactions. He therefore specified that the substances be diluted, due to his belief that succussion activated the "vital energy" of the diluted substance[73] and made it stronger. To facilitate succussion, Hahnemann had a saddle-maker construct a special wooden striking board covered in leather on one side and stuffed with horsehair.[74]:31 Insoluble solids, such as granite andplatinum, are diluted by grinding them with lactose ("trituration").[49]:23


    Without or that, it's just plain old water.

    The same as with :p
     
  29. krish

    krish
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2005
    Messages:
    35,945
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Astral Crescent, Zoovroozlechester, Betelgeuse V
    Ratings:
    +16,752
    you were almost succussful there
     
  30. Some Bloke

    Some Bloke
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2007
    Messages:
    2,124
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    116
    Ratings:
    +571
    I can't say I approve of the practice.
    But, I think anyone has a right to do what they want behind closed doors.
    ;)
     

Share This Page

Loading...