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swind0wn

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Hello,

I am very new to this forum and to the audio systems too.

I like listening to loud, bassy music and therefore have bought an amp of 2x350 output power
Skytec SPL-700 DJ PA Hifi Amplifier 700W USB SD MP3 System

The speakers that I bought it with are the
Hyundai Multicav Floor Standing Speakers

I am not an audiophile but I need to say I am pretty happy with the quality of sound I am hearing at the moment. The problem is that even though the sound I get delivered is loud and with no distortion what so ever I would like it to be louder or if not, at least have a bit better bass.

I did some research and found out that even really expensive speakers (talking £500+) have a range of frequencies from the sort of 35hz-30khz and output power of around 100 watts meaning I should not be targeting a more expensive speakers as they might even be more quiet than the ones I currently have. (1)

I play music from my laptop and when I put it to max volume I have observed that the "peak" lights on my amp start constantly flashing yellow when I turn both channels to 8 (out of 10). I know this is bad for the system (presumably the speakers) so therefore I can't get it any louder than that. (2)

I have also looked at subwoofers and I figured out that it could be a good idea to add one on to my system but then realised that I suffer enough knowledge on how to wire it and how to get power from both channels, not just one, without having to buy 2 subwoofers. (3)

(1)
Should I look out for speakers with more subs, tweets in them (4-way, 5-way) thinking they will be louder as the output power usually lies and its more of a marketing technique (short-term/long-term wattage etc); and also look at the brand as well e.g. XARUS 500 by Wharfedale. Or should I just look out for bigger power out put e.g. the following:
TIBO EDGE 500 FLOOR STANDING SPEAKERS

(2) Do you guys think its the speakers that are too quiet or my amp is not giving enough power supply? And should I set up a new target and start looking for PA speakers instead?

(3) Regardless whether I buy new speakers, PA or floorstanders, or stay with my ones, how do I wire a subwoofer and how loud should it be in terms of RMS wattage as I don't want to end up having the bass be too much, leaving the music as a background?

Thank you so much in advance for your answers, advice etc.
 
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Skytec specialise in P.A amplification, I've never heard a P.A amp sound that good playing music and I wouldn't personally select one for my home audio system (I'm not saying they can't sound good, I'm just saying I've never heard good quality music from one). You can tell when you hear music that's being played through a P.A amp, to me a P.A amp typically sounds heavy in the mid/high frequencies, lacking much bass and other lower frequencies. I think hi-fi home audio amps do a better job of covering a fuller frequency spectrum, and you can buy ridiculously loud and bassy ones too.
You could buy a sub to add thump to your music, and I think the thing with subs is you could get away with using just one because most stereo panning and effect happens in the mid and high frequencies than in the bass frequencies, so unless you're in a massively large room, I don't think there's a need for 2 or more subs. As to how you would connect one to a P.A amp, I haven't a clue, don't know much about P.A amps. A powered sub maybe better for you as they have their own built in amplifier which you can also control the volume and amount of bass and at what frequency you want the sub to take over the bass from the main speakers etc.

To get more volume from your amp and speakers, I'd say buying speakers with a higher sensitivity rating would help with this. You would get the amount of volume and more out of your amp with more sensitive speakers, without actually having to crank the volume dials as much as before. Maybe something around the 89 + db range would suit you. If your speakers are already in that sensitivity range and your system isn't loud enough, there maybe something wrong with your hearing lol.

One more thing about amps, I've heard an amp rated at 35 wpc that delivers louder than an amp rated 100wpc, so I agree don't always take the manufacturers rating of a product as gospel.
 
What size is the room the kit is in and what it like, flooring, furniture, ceiling height, etc?
Unless your room is the size of a barn and beyond, I'm struggling to understand why you would need 350w and yet, still not be loud enough and from i can gather, you are operating you amp at nearly at full volume which is not good and can't be 350w pc unless the source is producing a very low output. If in an average size room, 50wpc is plentiful.
I have 2 stereo amps, a 70w and 120w per channel and neither can i turn them up much beyond 12'o'clock or 25db (one of the amps has a display and increment in db) and still able to be in the same room. I suspect all is not what is says it is on the tin.

In saying that, you are using the laptop as a source and most player application usually has a its own volume control and EQ. I would switch off the EQ and set the volume to max on that and let the amp control the volume. Also what are the format and quality of the music you have stored on the laptop and how is that connected to the amp? All of these could be contributing to the problem.

I stream music via a dedicated streamer and i can say i have some downloaded tracks that are bass light. The same track on CD played (or ripped by me) through the same system sounds much better. Since i had no control over the ripping process of the downloaded track, i could not ensure that it was ripped accordingly.

I did some research and found out that even really expensive speakers (talking £500+) have a range of frequencies from the sort of 35hz-30khz and output power of around 100 watts meaning I should not be targeting a more expensive speakers as they might even be more quiet than the ones I currently have.

Wrong. That's just it handling working range and how low/high it can go in terms of bass (Low freq) and treble (high freq) which is nothing to do with how loud it can go, its the amp that drives them that determine that. A 100w speaker with a 45hz - 22Khz freq range can be plenty loud, without clipping and enough bass and within reason, be as loud as 200w speaker so long as its driven properly.

I'm more suspicious of the speakers than anything else tbh. Though there are some gems out there going for very little money, but don't think these are them. The £500 equivalent speakers will be in a different league. Build quality, construction, components used, all make good for a much better performing speaker.
Having more speakers in the cabinet is not the answer either, especially in this situation and at htis end of the price range. It will not make them sound any louder or better. The Wharfedale Xarus 5000 speakers are proper party speakers that can handle a good pummeling. No real finesse about them but are decent speakers. I had a pair for a while, but not for long as it was only for testing purposes.

However, I know of many 2 coned speakers ( woofer/tweeter) that will put both of those two speakers to shame and for me in both amp and speaker cases, i will always go for Quality over quantity.

A sub is definitely an option but if the speakers has a reported range of 20hz -20khz, you shouldn't be crying out for more bass. Another reason why the speakers are suspect IMO. My speakers has a range of 34Hz - 20-30khz and even though i have a sub, rare do i use it for music. Only for those bass light tracks i mentioned earlier and even then is when i can be bothered to switch it on.

In all honesty, i think you may need to start again and think about your requirements and budget and getting the best you can for it as i don't think this setup is suitable for what you want from it as having more power or more cones per cabinet, I do not believe will help your case.

In any case, before you shell out any more funds, check the player application volume and eq settings first and take it from there.
 
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What you need to look at the sensitivity of the speakers and not the power handling ability. What you are looking for is as high a figure as possible with something around 90db being pretty good. The sensitivity gives you the db level achieved with 1 watt of power at 1m from the speaker. Hence a lower power rated speaker but higher sensitivity could sound louder than a higher rated power speaker but lower sensitivity. Would be interesting to see what db level you are currently attaining. Since if using as much of the power as suggested I would be worrying about your hearing.
 
The room the system is in is 15 square meters which, I believe, is 160 square feet. I have no hearing problem, furthermore my hearing is brilliant, thank God for that.

Anyway, by now from what I've read I can conclude the following:

- PA amplifiers - more of mid/high frequencies instead of low (bass);
- Power Output can lie e.g. 150 watts per channel quieter than 35 watts per channel;
- For louder speakers I should look at sensitivity that is bigger dB levels - louder sound;
- I shouldn't be necessarily looking at PA speakers as I can get the same results with floorstanders.

I have disabled any kinds of equalizers and barriers from my laptop and have left the volume on max from the program I use for music, Winamp - with most of the songs at 44 kHz and 320 kbps, and also the master volume from my Windows/Realtek drivers. What I am saying is that everything from the input point of view (my laptop) is perfectly fine.

Regarding the 700 Watts Power Output as it says on my amp is most likely untrue as the amp costs £80 which I personally think is really really cheap if the watts were to be realistic. From the website that I have bought them there is a very similar model to mine:
Skytec SPL700 Watt DJ PA Amplifier EQ Hi-Fi Audio Amp
It says that channels deliver 2x350 watts at 4 ohms and 2x250 at 8 ohms. Considering my speakers are 8 ohms it means that it delivers even less power to them. Here is my model which I believe to be exactly the same as the one above, which is why I think the difference in the wattage delivered varies in the same way.
Skytec SPL-700 DJ PA Hifi Amplifier SD USB MP3 System

After doing an hour of research I am still unable to find the sensitivity on my speakers which means its probably poor hence they haven't mentioned it. Once again I need to say that I am okay with the sound my speakers deliver at the moment and even though I will be happier if they were to be slightly louder, I am still desperate to add more bass into my music. I have done a research on how I can achieve this and got to the conclusion that I should be looking at active subwoofers and somehow attach both channels to the channels on the active subwoofer and then somehow plug my speakers to the active subwoofer. Now I have no clue how to do this as if I connect my amplifier to the active subwoofer there is no spare jacks on my amp neither will be on an active subwoofer therefore where shall I stick, on the sub, the cables coming from the speakers? I may sound a bit stupid there but again my knowledge is quite poor when it gets to audio...
 
Most active subs have high level inputs. You just wire these in parallel to speakers. So 2 sets of cables to output on amp with one set to speakers and other set to sub.
 
First of all I would treat the power figures with a pinch of salt. As far as I am aware all quality hifi amplifiers increase their power as the ohm's drop, IE 200 watt into 8ohm, 400 watt into 4ohm. I am not sure why this amps power figures reduce as the ohm's increase?

Max power is likely less than the RMS figure measured with both channels driven with less than 1% distortion. I have seen amps declaring silly power figures but when you look closer you find its with 1 channel driven @ 10% THD (distortion) and peak power for a millisecond burst.

You could pick up any number of 2nd hand hifi amps for the £100 mark that should offer you a decent SQ improvement. Arcam, Rotel, Marantz, Nad, Pioneer. You could always re-sell if you find it does not offer you the improvements you want.

A sub could really help and if you buy a BK or Rel you just connect the hi level lead to your amplifiers speaker outputs and it will receive the same signal as your main speakers. They are both quite easy to integrate.

Good luck
 
As I have stated before I am fine with the current sound quality as I am not an audiophile, instead what I am looking for is maybe slightly louder sound and definitely more bass.

From all the replies and personal research I've been doing, I gathered that I should be looking for an active sub with high level inputs - so that I can connect the amp to the sub. I should be really looking forward into getting an active subwoofer with at least 10" driver. I got recommended brands like BK and Rel but unfortunately they are well away from my budget which is around £100 - my fault I'm only just mentioning this.

For now I have narrowed down to those two but then I got a critic that the brands are only famous for their speakers, not famous for making great value for money subs.

B&W
and
Mission

Also I have spotted a cheap chinese brand sub with good specs like this one. I think it has high level inputs too.

What are your opinions and eventual suggestions on what to get or if I should rather wait a bit and hope a cheap auction on eBay pops out with a sub with the brand BK or Rel?
 
For the money you probably can not go wrong with the cheap Chinese sub. However if you can get a more known brand, including B&W, for the same price secondhand then I would probably go for one of those instead.
 
Because I am not so bright what high level inputs look like do you think on the 2 subs I've pointed out (B&W and Mission) I have found 2 pictures on their back sides:
-B&W
-Mission

Do you think the black and red things are the places where I should attach the cables coming out my amplifier?

Also what frequency response would you recommend me for a subwoofer as I got a comment saying 40hz as the lowest frequency is quite high - I should be looking for something below 40.

p.s. what does input impedance mean as it says it on the specification of the B&W - would it run with my current amplifier?
 
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Both have high level inputs do will work fine. On the mission they are called speaker level inputs.
40hz is not especially low but will have a lot more authority than floorstanders at that frequency so will still give you the bass you desire especially with music since does not tend to go as low as movies.
The impedance of the input is very high so will not draw much current and will not effect the impedance the amp will see. It will work fine with your amp.
 
"I like listening to loud, bassy music"

Are we talking organ music? that needs bass. Reggae? that needs bass as well. What sort of music are you listening to?
 
p.s. what does input impedance mean as it says it on the specification of the B&W - would it run with my current amplifier?

The following may help you understanding Impedance

Impedance ohms and their relevance to speakers and AV amplifiers | AVForums


40hz is not especially low but will have a lot more authority than floorstanders at that frequency so will still give you the bass you desire especially with music since does not tend to go as low as movies.

I'll go along with that, though on a personal level, i would rather look at a more 'credible sub' than the Chinese version. Quality just looks suspect to me. To add to the list are BK Gemini Mk2 and XLS200. Both support HL but with a Neutrik connection and should be able to get a decent deal on a s/h if buying either new is over budget

Gemini
XLS200
Neutrik Connector

However, as asked, what type of music you listen to, what format are they in and what's your budget?
 
I listen to Drum and Bass (mostly Jump up), House and rarely a bit of Dubstep. Electronic music overall.

When I listen to music on an everyday basis the sound I get delivered is more than enough. When I say I would like to have my music louder and more with more bass - it only applies when I am having house parties.

What I've concluded by now is I should look for second hand subwoofer with high level inputs; when I have the opportunity - to buy new speakers with better sensitivity 90+ dB from a well-known brand. Also to upgrade to a hi-fi amp, instead of PA one, again from a well-known brand.

But in future my problem will be how do I know when an amplifier is compatible with the speakers? Lets say I am looking at the XARUS 5000 the only power-linked specification there is 25 - 250 W Power Output. After a quick research I have picked an amplifier as an example - Denon - that has 50Watts RMS per channel at 8 ohms, which I am unaware if its enough to drive these speakers?

p.s. I have just looked at receivers and figured that one of them may be a better option for me as they generally have more wpc at 8 ohms - for instance Pioneer. But then will I still be able to play music from my laptop as it says "No PC Input" in the specification.
 
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Besides Dubstep, D&B, House, soulful house, garage, soul, reggae, funk form part of my listening pleasure. So I too like bass and plenty of it within reason.
Funny that you should call it Jump Up as that what I call it. In fact, any tunes that makes me wanna get up shake a leg I call it that. And I thought I was the only one :thumbsup:

You seem to be obsessed with wattage and in terms of av's they seem to exaggerate the information somehow because in reality, it does not compare with an equality priced stereo amp which has a much lower wattage. Great with films though.
I can safely say that pioneer AV will not cut it music wise but it will allow you to connect up to a lot more sources than a stereo amp. If the source has some rare and abstract output connection then the chances are it will not support it but from I've seen, there's not a lot they can't connect to.
 
There a discussion about those Wharfedales here:

Wharfedale XARUS 5000 pair for £155 | AVForums

You might also want to consider something like the Wharfedale E70s from the 1980s (or something else from that range). The E stands for efficiency, and they go very loud indeed even with limited amplifier power. I sold a pair to a guy back in they day and when he came back into the shop the week after, he had a bandage on his nose... I didn't like to ask.

Maybe see as well if you can borrow a USB soundcard or DAC - might be better than the sound card in your laptop. Or it might not be, which is why I say borrow.
 
But in future my problem will be how do I know when an amplifier is compatible with the speakers? Lets say I am looking at the XARUS 5000 the only power-linked specification there is 25 - 250 W Power Output. After a quick research I have picked an amplifier as an example - Denon - that has 50Watts RMS per channel at 8 ohms, which I am unaware if its enough to drive these speakers?

The 25-250w Power output is the speakers working range. So the Denon or any amp whose wattage is within that range will drive Zarus without complication. In saying that, I wouldn't get an amp that just meets it minimum 25w requirement. 50w per channel will work then nicely. A 100w per channel amp nicer still. It wont improve the sound quality but it will not start clipping as early. However, even if you were to go to the top end of 50w, you will not be able to be in the room anyway unless you have hearing problems, which you will do eventually if you don't already. Since you say you have perfect hearing, I suggest you keep it that way for as long as possible as age will play its part in reducing that, so there's no sense in helping speeding up the process :D
 
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Av receiver quoted powers are way overstated and a 50w stereo amp will be mote than a match for a 100w+ quoted av receiver.
 
I am currently looking at the following subs:
- B&W AS6 - I think this auction will go over £150 therefore out of my budget but if not then it's okay
- M&K K-9 - I am not quite sure whether 8" sub will be enough for my needs as someone previously said I really shouldn't be looking at subs below 10"
- Welling WS-602 - Again these are 8" but they're two way so I thought I might include them too in my list
- Celestion S8 - I am quite confused whether this is active or passive sub?

Alongside I am watching closely at Wharfedale SW150. What do you guys think I should go for? If neither of them - then what minimum specs I should be looking for? And lastly any brand/sub recommendations apart from Rel and BK?
 
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You used to be able to get the sw150 for close to £150 new so do not pay too much for it secondhand. My brother in law has one and a good sub for the money. A 10" sub would be ideal but an 8" one should be fine but would not go smaller. Since you have a limited budget a half decent 8" will probably be better than a cheap 10" one.
My brother has the celestion and it is active and again would be a good buy if well under £100.
 

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