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Home Demo of the Optoma H78, some good some bad news.

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Paul D, May 15, 2005.

  1. Paul D

    Paul D
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    "Long Post Alert" :lesson:

    Hi
    Edgeyboy (Tom) contacted me asking if could demo my Marantz S3 DLP.
    He mentioned that he had narrowed his search for a PJ to the S3 and Optoma H78.
    He came and saw the S3 a few weeks a go, and seemed very happy with what he saw.

    A couple of days a go, he contacted me to say that he had a new H78 on demo, and he would really like see it at the same time as the S3.

    We arranged a meeting for this morning at my house, and i thought i would post my findings.
    I hope Tom will post his findings when he gets home.

    The two DVD players used were:-
    Pioneer 868i Via HDMI/DVI @ 1280x720(Only used on the S3)
    Denon 3910 Via HDMI/DVI+ DVI/DVI @ 1280x720

    The HDMI/DVI cables were swapped between the Pjs after watching certain scenes etc.
    Tom owns the Denon 3910, and wanted to see how it performed on each Pj.
    The Pioneer was only really used as a reference when looking to dismiss artifacts as disc or player based etc.
    The H78 was calibrated for brightness and contrast only to the 3910.
    (The S3 was calibrated to the 868i only of course)

    Before carrying on reading, please bear in mind that my findings are what we saw today, with the equipment mentioned above.
    Different combinations may produce different results.
    Also spending time with any equipment normally leads to better results.

    Tom had spoken to Gary Lightfoot for some basic advice, as to what settings to use on the H78.
    We did infact cycle through most of the settings in the end, but that's another story!

    The S3 has 350 hours on the bulb and the H78 had 12.

    The first thing that hits you with the H78 is brightness!
    I imagine most of the "pop" is down to the new bulb, but i suspect that it will be brighter than the S3 even at the same bulb hours.
    We tried running the S3 with the Iris open and high lamp mode, and found we could get close but not match the H78.
    I would imagine they would only be the same once the new bulb settle in.
    However, the S3 is only about 2300-1 contrast with the Iris open.
    The H78 would be the better choice if a larger screen was needed.

    Tom had noticed much more "Rainbowing" during his home demo of the H78, and was keen to see if a direct demo with the S3 could show an instant reduction.
    Well the answer was yes.
    During back to back demoing of the same "Rainbowy" scenes. The S3 shown time and time again to be almost resistant to any rainbowing.
    This wasn't a fair test for the H78 though. As mentioned above, the H78 is on a new bulb and is way brighter than the S3.
    Rainbows seem to be more noticeable of brighter DLPs anyway, so i advised Tom that this should settle down as the bulbs gains hours.

    The upside to the H78 extra brightness is a great punchy image.
    Scenes just come alive, and i can see the attraction of a brighter image.
    The extra brightness doesn't seem to come at the expense of black level either.
    Infact, the contrast ratio of the H78 seemed fantastic.
    The extra brightness helping to actually make the black seem more inky black etc.
    Tom thought the brightness was too bright, and winced several times during dark to bright scene transitions.
    Personally, i prefered the extra brightness afforded by the H78 especially as it does it with high contrast.

    I wouldn't like to say which had the highest contrast. (the S3 with Iris at F5.0 or the H78 etc)

    We moved on to dark scenes to see how the H78 compared with low level detail.
    Scene after scene was rendered with all the detail present on the S3 present on the H78.
    We swapped DVD players, and found no "low ire" level micro blocking from the 3910.
    After some mid level APL scenes, Tom commented that he thought the 3910 had a slightly smoother image, and the 868i slightly sharper.
    This seemed true on both Pjs.

    Tom picked up straight away that the S3s is sharper than the H78s.
    I only noticed when checking the focus on both machines.
    The H78 has slight blue haze around single white pixels, where as the S3 is sharp.

    The H78 is also very quiet, with only the wheel noise being heard.
    And since it was at about a foot away, very good indeed.
    One point to mention, is the big blue "power" light on the H78.
    It lit up the side of the theatre!
    We didn't find a way of turning it off, and this will be essential for normal use.
    We resorted to covering it with a tea towel.

    The S3 was twice the price of the H78, but is older and now superseded by the S4.
    The build quality of the H78 is no where near that of the S3.
    But once installed would be irrelevant anyway.(it the picture that counts eh!)

    The H78 was starting to look a true bargain, and i thought i might advising Tom to buy one.
    We both had been concentrating on the brightness and contrast elements, and started looking deeper into the picture quality.
    When some potentially serious picture artifacts started to show, and the more we investigated the more they became apparent.

    To try and eliminate the source, we changed discs and players.

    First up.

    R1 panning.
    All "film" based will exhibit some panning judder. This is mostly seen during long slow pans.
    It is normally a consistent/even judder.
    On the H78, it was uneven and jumpy. It could even be noticed with any movement in a scene.
    The picture seemed to update at a slightly different rate across the image.
    It was more like a sync issue, as the video seemed to catch up and played totally smooth for a moment.
    We tried various settings on the 3910 (auto 1/2 etc), as we thought it might be it's fault.
    We tried both DVD players, on the S3 without any problems.
    Infact the 3910 played a little smoother on the S3 than the 868i with R1 discs.

    We put a R2 disc in, and the H78 was totally smooth again :confused:

    The main difference between the H77 and H78 is supposed to be better panning. I wonder if they have sacrificed R1 for better R2, or the demo unit has a fault.

    PWM induced posturisation during pans was present on both Pjs, with the S3 being better at minimising them.

    Things were going bad for the H78, and the were just about to get worse. :(

    We started to notice some weird blocking/streaking artifacts in the image.
    I have seen some of them before, with one of them looking like I.P. pulsing defects.
    Due to the Denons suffering blocking artifacts, it would be easy to just blame it.
    So we started watching the same scenes on the S3, and found the artifacts almost non existent.
    Watching the same scenes via the 868i and S3 totally eradicated all the artifacts.

    This gave i clue to what was happening. The H78s video processor was magnifiing any artifact offered to it.
    It was then introducing certain ones on it's own.

    To add to the micro blocking and I.P problems, there seems to be a picture "noise" added to the whole picture.
    This "noise" seems to "dirty" the image and introduce low level banding.

    On certain scenes and material, none of the faults are evident. (like "The Incredibles")
    In fact the "The Incredibles" looked errrr "Incredible" on the H78!
    No noise, banding or blocking :confused:

    Other scenes were plain aweful. With backgrounds pulsing and twitching, and blocks of texture moving about. The banding actually made background wallpaper look like it had curved slashes in it.

    Again all scenes were checked with the 3910/868i to the S3 with no artifacts present.

    Honestly guys, we tried every reasonable thing. Checked and rechecked each setting. (we tried stupid settings!)
    We checked the grey scales, we check brightness and contrast.
    Anything that could be causing these low level artifacts.
    The only thing amiss was very low level IRE push towards red.

    Backgrounds just seemd alive with crawlies and artifacts.

    It may be a compatibility problem with the 3910 and H78, or a faulty H78.

    It may be unfair to compare it to the S3 as it was twice the price.

    But i thought it would be the other way round. The S3 has now been around for 18 months and replaced.
    I assumed the H78 with the latest firmware/updates would actually outperform the S3.
    And those who know me, know i would have said so on here!

    Tom has decided to return the H78.

    Since this isn't meant to be a H78 bashing or S3 worshipping thread.
    Feel free to ask any questions, and/or reasons for for what we found.

    I will try to answer any questions i can honestly and without bias. :smashin:
     
  2. Kramer

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    An interesting read Paul.....good of you to post :smashin:
     
  3. venezolano

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    Hi Paul,

    excellent review at all!! Full of details, very explanatory... and just concludes as I thought. The differences between a very good projector and an excellent one doesn't appear at a first glance.

    I would like to ask you about connections you made. Didn't you try component connection? Did you try any other source like satellite or TV? I'm asking you that because when feeding with hi-res sources the pj's (although scaled) you make the pj work easier. I think that if you had tried to connect SD, like sky or satellite, the differences would have been greater btween them.

    On the other hand, as I read, you did try both dvd player's running 720p. Which of the did you like more? Did you apreciate differences between them? Wich one of them did like you more? (I know the pio is yours)

    Well, no more doubts by the moment.

    Cheers

    Juan
     
  4. Messiah

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    Excellent informatiuve review Paul.

    Having owned an S3 for about 9 months (last year), an H77 for the last 9 months and now an H78 I can say, as I have always said, that the S3 is smoother and gives a sightly cleaner image. However, and this is a BIG HOWEVER, how often do you run a £3.5k pj and a £8k pj side by side?

    In the first few weeks, those who know me will tell you that I showed some disappointment moving from the S3 to the H77, but after that short period the tide turned completely. I now much prefer the quietness, extra brightness and lower price of the H77/78 over the S3 I had. Partly I guess due to the fact that I have 'forgotten' what the S3 picture looked like.

    I will also conclude that there are times when I think some people may put far too much effort into looking for problems rather than enjoying the overall pleasure of the big screen that a pj like the H77/78 can offer. I used to do this but now simply enjoy what I have (it's cheaper as well btw :D )

    Bang for the buck, I still think the H78 is the best value pj out there with a picture to rival even the S3's and S4's of this world, unless you do side by side comparisons or look with a magnifying glass :)

    I should add, that I am not trying to justify or defend the H77/78 here. Just giving a 'real world' opinion and telling it as I see it. Oh, and I must add that Optoma CS seems way better than Marantz. Free firmware upgrades and a brand new pj within 48 hours when they rather messed up the H78 upgrade last week. I cannot even begin to fault Optoma CS :smashin:
     
  5. Edgeyboy

    Edgeyboy
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    To be perfectly honest, there is very little to add to Pauls' comments.

    Only that I found the rainbow worse on the H78 although that may be because it was virtually brand new and still very bright. The S3 by comparison had a few hundred hours on it and was noticeably dimmer.

    We only tried the DVI inputs because of cabling.

    I have the option of a second hand S3. If I didn't have that option, I would buy the H78 as a new S4 would be out of reach.

    The H78 is a bargain for the level of performance on offer and it was only a very detailed and lengthy comparison that drew out the differences.

    The quietness of the H78 will win it a lot of fans however as will the retail price. Paul and I are prefectly aware that it is "unfair" to compare a £3.5K machine with an £8K machine, but we had the opportunity to do so and it was interesting.

    To reiterate: The H78 is exceptional value for money and if I didn't have the option of a second hand S3 I would buy it.
     
  6. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Good review guys, but with some interesting findings. :)

    I have to say I've never seen the blocking/streaking artefacts you mention on either the H77 or the H78, but then I use HTPC and nothing else, so I wonder if that's the difference. Having said that, I've not seen this artefact mentioned over on avs either so I'm now wondering if you had a faulty H78 perhaps? The only issue that was widely reported was the panning artefact, and that appears to be fixed on the H78.

    RTFM has an H78 on demo and he's never mentioned the blocking you mention either, so I wonder if he can replicate the artefacts - he has the Pioneer 868i and a Uvem HTPC so can try them out if he gets the chance. I'll ask him. What DVDs did you use (chapters and times if possible please, and I'll try them too).

    I can't really comment on the R1 panning you mention, as I run both PAL and NTSC disks at 1280 x 720 @ 60hz from the HTPC so again, I wonder if they're not there on my unit or I just don't see them (having a smoother image from the S3 may highlight them on the H78 perhaps). The H78 is meant to be optomised for PAL, but it fixed the panning artefact on R1 disks from my HTPC so I would have thought it was a universal fix - after mentioning it to the guys on avs, they've pushed for the mod themselves and it seems Optoma US is going ahead with offering it to them.

    FYI, the H78 measured 2400:1 CR out of the box, but 2700:1 is achievable with a lens filter. With the lamp at 170hrs, I measured approx 550 lumens in hi lamp mode and 425 in eco mode. How does that compare with the S3? It's a pity they didn't have an iris instead of motorised zoom and focus as I think that is better choice as you can have more CR or more light, depending on your room and preferences.

    Good review though guys, but I wonder how many other people have seen this artefact you mention? I certainly wouldn't have bought the pj had it been present on mine, and I didn't buy the H77 until the posterisation that was common on them was fixed, as I find image artefacts a real distraction and they pull me out of the movie. That's why it took me so long to buy it - I wanted an artefcats free image like that I had on the HT1000 and wouldn't have upgraded unless the pj replacing it was an improvement in some aspects at least.

    I often see the 'grain' noise you mention on many new HD2 (and up) DLPs, including Sims, and this I think is down to a new lamp and extra brightness. It's something I find distracting and one of the reasons I prefer cinema levels of around 12ft lamberts. I think I'd love the S3 and S4. :) That's another reason I like to use a filter - other than allowing a boost in CR after recalibration, it also reduces the lumen output, which overall gives a more film-like image.

    If it's a processing issue then an external scaler may prove it one way or another, but I wouldn't be surpised if the unit you had was faulty.

    However, given the S3s reputation, I think that would be the choice for most even if the H78 was problem free. :)

    Gary.
     
  7. Edgeyboy

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    Gary: I have to add that the minor artifacts we saw were very very subtle. We were really scrutinsing the image.

    We looked at Toy Story 2 opening chapters. Have a look at the duvet on Andy's bed in Chapter 2,3 or 4 I think. It has some fine lines across it on the H78. We also looked at Shakespeare in Love which looked pretty good on both, perhaps the Marantz having a slightly less noisy image.The Incredibles looked stunning on both. We couldn't fault the H78 at all on this.

    I was wondering wether the H78 and Denon 3910 might just be a bad combination in the same way the A11 was bad with Panny Plasmas from an artifact point of view ? We were unable to try the 868 with the H78 due to cabling restrictions. Maybe the S3 "hid" any Denon artifacts better than the H78.

    I have to stress again the H78 is awseome for the money and maybe when it has more hours on it, these issues will fade away. I will keep you posted.
     
  8. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Hi Paul,

    I'll try to get a look at those TS2 chapters and have a closer look.

    You might be right about the compatability, given that these probelms haven't been mentioned elsewhere as far as I know. How long will you have the H78 for?

    Gary.
     
  9. Edgeyboy

    Edgeyboy
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    Hi Gary

    I have the 78 on loan, not Paul.

    I'll probably have it for a few more days.
     
  10. Edgeyboy

    Edgeyboy
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    Gary:

    I'll see if I can borrow an 868 or Arcam to try with the H78.
     
  11. Paul D

    Paul D
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    I think Tom hit the nail on the head!
    Panasonic Plasmas had some blocking/artifact problems with the Denons.
    The H78 just seems to exaggerate any artifacts present in the source.
    It then added some "noise" of it's own.

    These artifacts are subtle "most" of the time. That's why they weren't spotted at first glance.

    "Toy Story 2" showed them more, "The Incredibles" the least.
    Ironically both are animations, both are considered "Reference" DVDs.
    This leads me to think the DVD player has something to do with it, and it's not just the PJ. (panning glitches aside)

    When they are at their worse, anybody would see them.(Toy Story 2 in most scenes etc)
    Other than that, i think they wouldn't be a problem.

    I only wish we could have tested with the 868i.

    "Tom" if you are up for it, come round again and i will rig a temporary DVI lead from the 868i, to test for this possible incompatibility etc.
    Or better still, is there any chance you can get a 868i on demo?

    We tried both the 3910s HDMI and DVI socket, just in case that was the cause.

    Please remember my comments at the top of my post.
    This PJ can give a stella image, regardless of it's bargain price.
    It's near silent, and very bright with great picture depth.
    Without the artifacts mentioned, i loved the H78s punchy image.
    I'm used to the noise free image from the S3, and haven't seen banding in years.(other than in the source!)
    So of course i was surprised to see them.

    Messiah, has owned both so will know both their strengths and weaknesses.
    The S3s main weakness is the dimmer image. Colour are less punchy but are very accurate.

    This demo wasn't a shoot out, rather to help Tom decide what to buy.
    He already owns the 3910, so using the 868i wasn't really planned for.

    I mentioned to Tom, that if i was buying right now. I would probably be going for the H78.(assuming i could sort out these artifacts)
    As mentioned their 3 year warranty and customer commitment/service seems exceptional.
    In fact i mentioned this to Tom more than once!
    £4000 extra is a lot of dosh at the end of the day.
    When i bought the S3, there was nothing else around (using the HD2+ chipset) for much less than £6500.
    Now you can get very similar performance for less than £3000!

    Toms dilemma is that he has the option on both for around the same price.
    The S3 used, with an older bulb and less than a years warranty remaining.
    The H78 with 3 years warranty, and a new bulb etc.

    The Denon really did look cinematic on the S3 by the way!

    It was very funny as Tom was leaving my house. I mentioned posting our findings, and commenting how difficult it would be to be honest without upsetting people.
    He wished me "Good Luck"! :D

    I've no doubt S4 and Yamaha 1200 owners would see my S3s image as crude! :D

    Ps, keep the suggestions coming, as i would like to get to the bottom of this one way or other.(for Toms sake etc)
     
  12. Paul D

    Paul D
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    Gary,
    Look at the first few bedroom scenes in (TS2).
    The blue duvet cover had blotches/streaks of blue colour on it's fringe.
    Most background wall shots had slight banding and colour blotches.
    Doors had slight banding.
    The scene were Woody wakes with his arm around the bowling ball will show some blotches and pulsing of colours on any smooth colours(mainly blue) to the right of the image.

    On Shakespear in Love etc.

    The background pulsing/twitching i mentioned, happens once every second.
    The background textures just seem to change shape every second.
    The crawlies may be a sharpness setting isssue.

    Gary, i hope this helps :thumbsup:
     
  13. Paul D

    Paul D
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    Just had a PM from Tom, and we are going to get the 868i and the H78 together this week. :smashin:
     
  14. GrahamMG

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    Just a thought but how long were the HDMI and DVI cables, we have noticed some strange effects with the longer cables on some devices and nothing with others, I suppose it is all down to how the interfaces are implimented with some being excellent at 10Mtrs and others falling apart at 7.5Mtr (the standard maximium). Was the same cable used on both pj's, did either need a HDMI/DVI (or vice versa) convertor?
     
  15. Paul D

    Paul D
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    I'm not sure, but i think it was a 5m(or even 7.5m) HDMI to DVI lead.
    A converter was used at the HDMI end when used for DVI to DVI.

    I've seen long cable HDMI/DVI effects, but these weren't them.

    Hopefully we will find out if it's Denon related soon enough :smashin:
     
  16. venezolano

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    It sounds me very strange that denon artifacts, if there are such ones, are eliminated with the S3, and amplificated by H-78. It doesn't make sense.

    The test you should do, is to feed with PAL (576i) through component, and let both pj's making the deinterlace and upscale.

    Cheers

    Juan
     
  17. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    It occured to me earlier that what you may be seeing is the H78s scaler not being the best for 480 sources - Greg Rogers of Widescreen Review this month reviewed (natch) the Optoma H79 which is more or less the H77 but with the DC3 chip. His conclusion is that it requires an external scaler for best results, upconverting SD 480 sources to 720p. He also said that it shone with hi def material, showing none of the signs of poor deinterlacing which 480i had shown. That may explain some of what you saw, though it seems odd that I haven't seen these other issues you mentioned elsewhere - it might be a good idea to post your findings over on avs and see what feedback you get. I'll certainly be interested.

    Because I use an HTPC, I'm in effect using an external scaler/deinterlacer, so that would also explain why I'm not seeing any strange artefacts on my machine. I could always try my standalone SD player and see if that shows them up in the same way.

    Gary.
     
  18. Paul D

    Paul D
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    Juan,
    The DVI signal from both the 868i and 3910 will be very similar.
    (as mentioned, they were near identical on the S3)

    It's how each PJ deals with this signal that will make the real difference.
    Each PJ will have a different gamma curve, meaning different parts(brightness) of the image with be more prominent.

    The Marantz allows more of the available steps in the lower IREs to allow great shadow detail. This will mean less steps available for the rest of the range.
    The 3910-H78 combo didn't show any low IRE blocking in shadow detail etc.
    It was more mid level IREs that highlighted the blotches/artifacts.
    It may be just the case that the H78 gamma curve just happens to more sensitive, right where the 3910 is more detailed. (where the S3 is less sensitive etc)
    Meaning more of the "source" related artifacts will be seen. (just a thought!)

    We may try component at 480i/576i, but to be honest i prefer HDMI/DVI from the 868i.
     
  19. Paul D

    Paul D
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    Gary,
    We were running both DVD players at 1280x720p @50hz/59.94 etc.(so bypassing the de-interlacer and scaler)

    Best just to wait for the 868i-H78 test.

    Ps
    Since a picture tells a thousand words. I will try to get some close up screenshots of the artifacts. :smashin:
     
  20. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Hi Paul,

    The 868i was the closest thing to HTPC I've ever seen when RTFM used it to feed his various Sim2 projectors. It certainly was very detailed and clean looking, so I'm looking forward to your results. Thanks for taking the time.

    Gary.
     
  21. Edgeyboy

    Edgeyboy
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    The HDMI to DVI cable to 5m. We also tried using a DVD-DVI lead: No difference. The same cable was used to connect the 3910 to both projectors.
     
  22. Paul D

    Paul D
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    Update:
    Tom has had to return the H78.
    So i'm afraid there is no way we can now test the 3910+H78 combo. :(

    Maybe there is a chance either a forum member or dealer, can get both together?

    Anybody else have a H78+3910 combo?
     
  23. Lefreck

    Lefreck
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    Yes I have. What do you want me to check? I also have Toy Story in NTSC and Pal, if you want me to check differences between Pal and NTSC...
     
  24. Paul D

    Paul D
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    Lefreck

    Are you connected via HDMI/DVI etc?

    Look at the first few bedroom scenes in (Toy Story "2" PAL).
    The blue duvet cover had blotches/streaks of blue colour on it's fringe.
    Most background wall shots had slight banding and colour blotches.
    Doors had slight banding.
    The scene were Woody wakes with his arm around the bowling ball will show some blotches and pulsing of colours on any smooth colours(mainly blue) to the right of the image.

    ie just look for anything that looks false. Disney spent a lot of time making textures look very real. We saw blotches of colour moving around, where there should have been detail.

    On Shakespear in Love (R1)etc.

    The background pulsing/twitching i mentioned, happens once every second.
    The background textures just seem to change shape every second.
    The crawlies may be a sharpness setting isssue.

    Toy Story 2 should be near perfect, with almost no artifacts/banding.

    In Shakespear In Love, we noticed background textures looked "alive" or crawling, when they should have been static.(as they were on the S3 with both the 3910 and 868i etc)

    It may be hard to know what's right and wrong without another reference.

    Good luck! :)
     
  25. Lefreck

    Lefreck
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    I've got DVI and YUV (BNC) connected. Today, I even got a HDMI/DVI-cable for testing. I can compare TS2 NTSC and Pal, but I only got "Shakespeare in Love" in Pal.
     
  26. Lefreck

    Lefreck
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    Yesterday evening I looked for these artifacts you described and couldn't detect them at my normal viewing distance (ca. 3.8m with 1.9m picture width). When I approched the screen (at ca. 1.5m), I could slightly see what you mean. Could it be possible that the intensity of the artifacts are dependent of the settings. Here are mine:
    On the Denon: DVI 720p ( tried 10m HDMI-DVI Profigold cable but it didn't work), everything on 0
    Optoma H78 settings:
    white:0
    Colortemp. 1
    R contrast 5
    B contrast 13
    -------
    Modus: TV
    Contrast: -2
    Lum.: -3
    Sharpn: 1
    Gamma : 3
    (ps: Terms may not be correct as I use german menu language :blush: )
     
  27. Paul D

    Paul D
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    We tried altering most settings with no effect.

    We were sat 9' from a 7' foot wide screen.
    This is maybe closer than most would sit, but as mentioned we saw no artifacts with the S3-868i combo.

    The S3 did show the same artifacts with the 3910, but to an almost invisible degree.
    That's why i did think that maybe the 3910 was the cause, and the H78 was just exaggerating it.

    The "noise" mentioned was present most of the time.
    But it was subtle and mostly on background textures etc.
    Yet for some reason, we didn't see it at all during the Incredibles.

    It may be the case that the H78 is more revealing than the Marantz, and with a clean signal from the 868i would have looked even better.

    If the artifacts we saw were from the 3910, and would be gone with another player.
    Means the H78 is truely stunning for the money.
    This also means the H79 if it ever comes here, will be hard to beat. :thumbsup:
     
  28. Edgeyboy

    Edgeyboy
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    Paul - I don't think the H78 was any more revealing than the S3. There was no more detail on offer in the picture.
    I think it is a case of two badly matched units - just as in the case of the DVDA11 and Panasonic Plasma's.
     
  29. zAndy1

    zAndy1
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    If it helps I once demo'd a 3910 and an Arcam dvd player at the same time (well one after the other!) on the same DLP projector in Sevenoaks on Hull, the 3910 exhibited all the artifacts you have described including moving blocks on walls, the Arcam was as clean as a whistle. Is it not the infamous macroblocking that Denons are well known for rearing it's ugly head?

    Andy
     
  30. Edgeyboy

    Edgeyboy
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    I think it is Andy. The H78 just shows it up more.
     

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