High-end Receiver/Amp for 80% music - Denon x2500h currently

duffner

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Hi everyone! First poster here, so thanks for anyone willing to help a noob here.

I have a def tech 600 series 5.1 setup that I use for movies and I recently purchased a pair of B&W 702s2 for music. I got the s2 for 3k for the pair so it was hard to argue for the price. Two open boxes at Best Buy :). Big upgrade over the energy CF-50s these replaced !! I run the amp on front height configuration to have 7.1 during movies.

This starts my problem, when watching movies the b&w sounds amazing like I did when testing, but for some reason music just feels so flat. The best sound comes from Pure Auto with no reference offset, but everyone says it should be 10db. My question, is my receiver the limitation, configuration or any other ideas? Most of listening is around 23db on the receiver sometimes a little louder to 20db.

I used the audessy app to configure my room correction. I’m not sure if sharing that will help you guys.
 
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Hi, it is a common finding that Denon AVR's are not great at 2 channel music, it is the pre-amp section of the Denon AVR that is generally the problem.

You could buy a new AVR that is great at both movies and music, such as an Arcam.

Or, you could add a switch which will enable you to share your front main speakers between your current AVR for movies, and a separate stereo integrated amp for music. Then you can buy any stereo integrated amp that you like.

This is the switch that is highly regarded for this use:

 
I would say to go for the best that you can afford, as you go up the models you get more power, but much of the other features stay the same.

In the UK there is currently a deal going on the older FMJ model AVR390, which means it is very good value. Are there such deals available in the US?
 
I listened to the BW at Best Buy, US store and I’m guessing they used a much different power and amplification source than mine :). Lol.

Ugh. I wish I knew what was powering them there, I can’t win. The model you referenced was on sale for $1499 USD does this seem in line?

Are there any other brands out there look at?
 
Are there any other brands out there look at?
Anthem, NAD both are available in the US I believe. As good, if not better than Arcam for a one box solution. For music though you should be look at a stereo integrated amp to get the best out of the B&Ws. Most stereo amps that will complement the speakers will have HT by-pass so that if you get an AV amp with pre-outs it would be easy to link them up so that both systems can use the speakers.

The speakers deserve something better than a one box solution to be honest. I'll throw a few models into the hat. Arcam SA30, Rega Elicit-R, Musical Fidelity M5si, Naim Nait XS3, Simaudio Neo 340i. However here is a list of amps that have HT by-pass.

 
I definitely appreciate all of your help, also note I don’t mind buying separates to accomplish my goal. However, I’m in completely uncharted territory with making this purchase. I don’t mind spending money, just don’t want to do it stupidly. :).

However, I don’t want the significant other have to have an electrical engineering degree to just turn it on :). Lol. With that said, the all in one, or separates that work together nicely are ideal.

$4k usd would be my budget for this. I’ll spend more if it’s totally worth it.
 
I listened to the BW at Best Buy, US store and I’m guessing they used a much different power and amplification source than mine :). Lol.

Ugh. I wish I knew what was powering them there, I can’t win. The model you referenced was on sale for $1499 USD does this seem in line?

Are there any other brands out there look at?
Maybe you could contact the Best Buy store and ask what they used when they demonstrated the speakers to you? However, their demo room is probably acoustically treated, so even if you bought the exact same set-up, it might not sound the same in your room.

That price on the Arcam AVR390 sounds very good, especially when it's replacement AVR10 model is currently being sold for $2499. It has full pre-outs so you could add extra external amplification if you felt the need.

Other competing brands would be Nad, Anthem and Emotiva, although I would place them as runner ups to the Arcam sound. I think being in the US you might be able to take advantage of the Emotiva free home trial.

I note that gibbsy has suggested a stereo amp with HT bypass. Note that you would need to upgrade your AVR to one with pre-outs, they start on the next model up to your Denon 2500, so you would be looking at the Denon 3700 model or better, or another brand at a similar level. The cost of that plus the stereo amp with HT bypass would need to be taken into account.

So, to summarise.....

1. Replace your Denon with an Arcam AVR or similar to get better movies and music in one unit.

2. Add a speaker switch and a very nice stereo amp to your current AVR.

3. Replace the AVR with one with pre-outs for at least the front left and right speakers in the main zone, and add a stereo amp with HT bypass.
 
Any Denon AV amp from the X3700 upwards will have the requisite pre-outs. It's a pretty simple thing to do, if I can do it then anyone can. Simply connect the AV amps front pre-outs (I'll talk about my Rega Elicit-R) to the dedicated 'Direct' line in on the stereo amp. HT by-pass is then engaged with a button on the remote. Run Audyssey to EQ the stereo amp and speakers into the system and your good to go.

For film and TV the AV amp and the stereo amp are fired up. For just music with all your music sources directly into the stereo amp then that would be used as normal.
 
I thought I’d add a photo of the room.

I’m at the end of the space outward. Maybe speaker placement can be improved?
 

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Nice room. Where is the center speaker? And can the height speakers go higher?
 
Thanks for the compliment. :). The center is on the mantle under the TV. It’s a pretty limited space.

With the front heights, I’m not sure. The holes were already there when I moved in. I’m guessing I could fish something higher. Should I move them upwards?
 
hi duffner, a few compromises with the mains there. ideally you want them ahead of the fire place. rather than pushed back in the corners behind them

re the audyssey app... its really aiming for cinema EQ reference curve... nice for movies but probably not ideal for music

for music try a few things... take out the BBC dip... (mid range compensation). also try instead of the audyssey cinema reference curve that has a top end roll off by standard ...go with the audyssey flat curve they give as option.

if do some checking on youtube... with the app you can also setup two curves to select from movies or music ... so one leave as is for movies which seem happy with. and other using the music curve...

few other things can do for 2ch i would necessary use dynamic EQ .. but again its your choice ...

RE the AVR the 2500 its really a budget piece.... its main focus is movies... id consider moving up the ranks of denon or alternatively for a more music focus consider marantz... their ideology "music matters" means they do indeed put a bit more focus with music.. but even there as you go up the ranks as you expect get what pay for

the main speakers are pretty decent and another alternative as been suggested ... is add a 2ch integrated with HT bypass... something like the musical fidelity m3si would do fine... this works off 2ch L&R outs, as you can see in rear shot of the denon, am sorry but it is such a budget piece it even lacks L&R main outs so that rules out the 2ch integrated with ht bypass idea

1616971095991.png

As can see below you need to go to at least Denon 3500h before you see L&R pre outs



1616971211881.png


though id hardly call that a high end receiver... its more lower mid range...

if looking high end consider something like the marantz 8012 which are going for an amazing bargain on run out if can find one...

however just looking at rest of your speaker set a marantz 8012 is probably totally over kill on the ht side... so unless planning to upgrade centre surrounds etc and if completely happy with what have HT side...consider the other approach i mentioned ...

pick up a denon 3500 or 4500 or later model with 2ch L&R pre outs these can often go pretty cheaply second hand...

partner this with a decent 2ch integrated with ht bypass eg the m3 or even an m5 if can afford it in the musical fidelity range... this will partner well with your denon avr for best of both world for you... AV/HT happy with and give a massive boost in the 2ch music stakes with the 2ch integrated and do better justice for your mains....

so a few approaches there... hope dont find confusing ...but you do have options ...
 
With the front heights, I’m not sure. The holes were already there when I moved in. I’m guessing I could fish something higher. Should I move them upwards?
if meant to be heights ... they need to be up near the ceiling ... so you have some height differential between the bed speakers and in heights to make them heights ...

possible the holes have there now are for what were previously being used as L&R speakers :)
 
I want to comment on the centre speaker. With it being considerably smaller and located higher than the front mains, that could mean that the front soundstage, and particularly dialogue is compromised.

You could run a 'phantom' centre, and see how that sounds. Which means disabling it in the AVR, allowing the audio for the centre channel to be mixed into the front main speakers, this should position the dialogue centrally due to the stereo imaging. Tweaking the position of the speakers, maybe toe-d in a little, could help to get this correct.

Worth a try maybe?
 
Nice room - but scrap the fireplace and mantle, relocate the TV downwards and get a decent B&W centre speaker (if it was me).
 
A ton of great information! @Rambles, I think I’ll give that a try. Seems like that may work.

@CaptainJames, that fireplace is the reason I’m allowed to have all the speakers. lol. I tried for weeks to layout that room where the TV was not over the fireplace. Mainly because I didn’t want to install it lol. One day I’ll go back to the drawing board. If I watched more movies I’d probably care more.
 
I thought I’d add a photo of the room.

I’m at the end of the space outward. Maybe speaker placement can be improved?

Yes, very nice room! As well as the comment above about moving the main speakers forward... it looks to me like you have the left speaker straight ahead and the right speaker heavily toed in. Depending on your listening position, this could be affecting Audyssey.
Looks like you've toed in that much due to the sofa position. I have a similar situation in my lounge. I had to mess around with toe in quite a lot and the best compromise I could suggest trying is to toe in both main speakers but much less than that right one is. Then leave Audyssey to try and EQ the sofa if that makes sense (or can you move the sofa back slightly).
In my experience that worked better for me and set up a better stereo soundstage for music.
 

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