HiFi / AV crossroad dilemma. Dare to read...

[CrazyN3S]

Hello,

After looking through the internet, Youtube, forums and HiFi listening rooms (stores) I finally have the courage to ask to you Audiophiles out there.

About me:

I'm new on this forum and hopefully I picked the right one.
I'm 37 years old with a tinnitus but I have always loved music and movies. I one of those rare human beings that have lived through the golden years of audio development. Phono --> casette --> cd --> mp3 --> Dolby Digital/DTS
Phono doesn't appeal to me 'cause of the wide spectrum of quality and fragility. I do believe this is the most purest form of art when it comes to music.
I loved CD and I still do. To me that is the best quality to achieve the easiest way possible.
When I was around 16 years old MP3 was taking over. I hated it because I could hear the degeneration of quality.
A good example of how quantity took over quality.
My first AV was a Sony STR-DB930 (I still have it). Not sure it was a AV because their was no HDMI back than, so maybe no video at all?
The Dolby digital/DTS was amazing and boy o boy did I watched a fair amount of DVDs!

What do I want:

I'm in the market for some new stuff.
The one thing people always say is that a AV can't deliver HiFi stereo like a Stereo amp.
I prefer sound as it is intended to be. Stereo is THE way when it comes to music. Next to that I believe that every movie/serie/TV show has a stereo mix audio signal.
So stereo would be a true universal sound format.
I'm struggeling between sticking to good ol' 2.0 or do I wish for that dialog clarity and go for 3.0, adding a center speaker for video entertainment.
The latter is also helping with my tinnitus 'cause of the clarity and independent volume control of a center speaker.

The problem is... For adding a center speaker I need a FULL funtioning AV reciever and accept the loss of music quality (stereo output)
I could have both with a good AV with pre outs but again, all that for a just a center channel.

What do I have:

I have a Xbox Series X. I choose the "uncompressed stereo audio" format. HDMI goes into TV and TV digital out (optical PCM = stereo) goes to a temporaly amp solution and speakers.
I hate that they removed the optical out option. It feels like now you need to always split the audio from the video singal (ARC & eARC) or split the video from the audio signal (modern AV reciever)
I understand that a toslink digital connection is limited to bitsteam 5.1 or stereo PCM.
HDMI can do so much more but hey... Audiophiles want to have things that they do best in what they singlehanded can do. I'm looking at everyone with separate pre amps, amps, dacs, etc.
audio and video through one cable is handy and easy but frustrating when you want quality.

I'm going for 2 Klipsch rp8000f. Why? ...Sound and looks. The sound is good to great, never bad. And the looks ohhhh man the looks!!! (taste is personal)

There also will be a new LG oled TV model 2021 or 2022

What do I need and the real questions:

3.0?
I need a amp or better I need a intergrated amp with digital inputs.
If you have read the 2.0 vs 3.0 option that I consider... Here come the real quations.

Let say I go with a good AV for 2.0 and 3.0. I thinking about the new Yamaha A4A.
This one has everything on it that I will use. I have to wait for reviews 'cause of the video passthrough dramas with the first HDMI 2.1 AV's.
Stereo wise. How would a A4A handle music compare to lets say a A-Sx01 from Yamaha?
I have the budget for a A4A it but I do realise that I'm buying this ONLY to have a center channel!!!

note: If I go with 3.0 the center will be a Klipsch rp405c to match with the rp8000f

Will a A-Sx01 Stereo amp with a budget AV for multichannel be better? I understand the AV has to have 2 pre outs to utilize the A-Sx01 for music (stereo)

2.0?
Keep it simple and stick with quality. Stereo for everything.

If I do stick with stereo I probably will hook up my Xbox the same way as I describe above to the new LG oled TV and optical out to the amp.
So I need digital inputs.

I'm looking at basic A-Sx01 and save a lot of money.
The Yamaha R-N803d looks fun. Won't need my Xbox and TV running to listen to HiFi streams. Also save a lot of money. The room correction can be usefull.

And then there is something called Naim Uniti Atom. Owwww boy talk about something to look at besides VU meters am I right?
The screen is a total luxury when it comes to audio quality and I do have a smartphone to scroll to a library BUT... People say it is high class HiFi in term of audio quality. I can pick one up for 1900 Dollars.

Budget is 1900

buying options:

3.0

Yamaha A4A + center speaker = Max budget
Yamaha A-Sx01 + cheap multichannel (with pre outs) AV for only 3.0 movies + center speaker = Max buget

2.0

Just Yahama A-Sx01 = less than half budget
Yamaha R-N803d = around half budget
Naim uniti Atom for 1900 (with upcomming Spotify HiFi in mind) = max budget

I realise that the Atom is worth much more but this is a deal I could find and that's the only reason I consider one. I wouldn't pay 2500-3000 ish for my music to play good.
Doesn't matter if the Atom is worth the original price.

Final words:

I've put this in the HiFi section and not the AV section because my biggest focus is on good stereo sound towards HiFi levels.
If you have read my whole post. Thank you!

I'm looking forward to responses and hopefully some of you can make my decision more precise.

Greetings from a Dutch guy.


Bonus question:

What is a better soundsignal IF thing would work correctly. Im looking at HDMI 2.1 video passthrough and eARC.
2.1 video passthrough doesnt work right now (120hz, VRR etc) and ARC/eARC causes lipsync issues (delays) with bitsteam formats

note: These problems could be in the past with the new A4A receiver hardware (I know there still will be firmware updates but the hardware is there)

digital source --> 2.1 AV reciever --> TV
digital source --> TV --> ARC/eARC amp (this would be a Naim uniti Atom option next to the optical input)

 

[Helix Hifi]

If AV receivers sounds worse or better only you can decide. AV receivers are getting more and more popular. Many audiophiles are totally happy using it/them against classic 2 channel amplifier.

I however am old school, no AV receiver for me. 2 channel always win in my book.

However the questions you’re asking about if you should go for 2.0, 2,1 is difficult answers to decide for me. Only you can.

DTS, 7.1 surround set up is not my expertise, so you need to ask others.

You say you want an amplifier. Let’s say the Yamaha NR803D, so you can connect all your sources. This AV receiver/amplifier has all the connections you need. 2 optical outs. 2 coaxial outputs. Many RCA inputs, even sub management.

Sorry, but your post is confusing to follow at times.

What exactly do you want?

 

[Khazul]

The answer may be get an AVR now, but make sure it has front pre-outs so that later you can add a separate stereo hifi amp with HT (Home Theatre) bypass capability so that it can take over as the front power amp for AV purposes but provide you with a great pre-amp + amp (integrated) for stereo music.

HT Bypass is basically a switchable bypass of the pre-amp so that the tone, volume balance controls of an integrated amp are all bypassed an the input signal feeds the power amp section directly with the assumption that an AVR is serving as the pre-amp.

There are quite a few of us here who have gone down this route - in my case, relatively cheap AVR (Yamaha RX-V781 - setup as 5.1.2 with basic dolby atmos) for AV use (perfectly good for prime, netflix etc with my LG B7 TV) and a good stereo amp (Yamaha A-S2100) for music use.

I originally got the AVR and used that for everything (AV, music from local NAS, streaming etc), then added the amp 6 months or so later along with much better music streaming (Roon with its own separate DACs).

In the current Yamaha range, I believe that getting an AVR with front pre-outs will require a model from the Aventage range as I believe this feature was dropped from the budget range.

In Hifi amps an integrated amp with HT-bypass capability will usually require a premium range amp as this feature (called 'Main Direct' on mine) is typically not found on cheaper integrated amps.

 

[Helix Hifi]

Haha, now I am following you. AVR receivers are not my field either.

Still I understand what you mean with pre out. You want the best off both worlds. One stereo amplifier, one AVR receiver. So you can use the stereo amplifier for music, the AVR receiver for movies.

Stereo amplifiers with pre out are Rega, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha. But more expensive ones.

Great AVR are also the ones above, expect for Rega. I don’t think Rega even makes them.

Pioneer, Onkyo are two wild cards to perhaps consider for both AVR/stereo use.

 

[Khazul]

Well some people here have also gone for high end AVRs that that are supposedly good for music too - NAD, Arcam etc. I have no experience of them or music, but many here have said they tend to be noticeably better for music than even the high end AVRs from Yamaha, Denon, Marantz etc.

Personally, I do not like spending too much on an AVR just because of the pace of change in digital technology means I may be tempted to replace it for purely tech reasons not far down the line, whereas I am quite happy to invest in a good hifi amp as I expect that will remain current for a long time with no technology concerns.

I have no recent experience of Pioneer, Onkyo or Sony AVRs for music use and they never even made my radar for AV use either for various reasons.

 

[gibbsy]

If you want surround sound then the best way to achieve that is by buying those music discs that are produced with 5.1 sound, or even Atmos. They can be found now on blu ray and it does seem to be a growing market. DVD-A has come and gone altough there are still albums around that you can pick. The other is multi channel SACD, quite possibly the most expensive to buy.

As for stereo CD, then stick to stereo, don't go down the route of using an upmixer on an AV amp. AV amps for music is something of a contentious issue, especially so with stereo sources. I've got a high end Denon and I still don't like it for music, it cannot match my stereo amp. You can still work one into the set up using the same front speakers if you have one with HT by-pass.

Also for stereo playback there are some pretty good, if not outstanding, CD players on the market at the moment to suit all budgets.

 

[CrazyN3S]

Hello again,

Thanks for the responses.

The answer may be get an AVR now, but make sure it has front pre-outs so that later you can add a separate stereo hifi amp with HT (Home Theatre) bypass capability so that it can take over as the front power amp for AV purposes but provide you with a great pre-amp + amp (integrated) for stereo music.

HT Bypass is basically a switchable bypass of the pre-amp so that the tone, volume balance controls of an integrated amp are all bypassed an the input signal feeds the power amp section directly with the assumption that an AVR is serving as the pre-amp.

There are quite a few of us here who have gone down this route - in my case, relatively cheap AVR (Yamaha RX-V781 - setup as 5.1.2 with basic dolby atmos) for AV use (perfectly good for prime, netflix etc with my LG B7 TV) and a good stereo amp (Yamaha A-S2100) for music use.

I originally got the AVR and used that for everything (AV, music from local NAS, streaming etc), then added the amp 6 months or so later along with much better music streaming (Roon with its own separate DACs).

In the current Yamaha range, I believe that getting an AVR with front pre-outs will require a model from the Aventage range as I believe this feature was dropped from the budget range.

In Hifi amps an integrated amp with HT-bypass capability will usually require a premium range amp as this feature (called 'Main Direct' on mine) is typically not found on cheaper integrated amps.

I think your doing exactly what I'm planning to do if I go for a center speaker.

To be clear for other readers. I have no interest in 5.1 or even Atmos.
I wil only be using a 3.0 setup L C R ...thats it. Don't mistake 3.0 for 2.1 it is not the same.

Sorry If my writing is a little confusing. English is not my native language.

The AV reciever will only be "on" for series or movies and ONLY for a center channel signal. Thats it. No Dolby Atmos or 5.1.
Thats why I'm on this crossroad of what to do. Spending 1500 dollar on a AV that will only use 5% of what it can do next to stereo.

You mentioned starting with the cheaper AV is probably what I would do If I didnt came across the Naim uniti Atom (All in one)
Any thoughts on that amazing machine? I can grab it for 1900 dollars.

I think I will drop the high quality AV option I've mentioned in my post. (Yamaha A4A)
Stereo for music has to be superior than 3.0 Netflix, Amazon etc. entertainment.

 

[CrazyN3S]

Extra info.

I doesnt have to be a YAMAHA with front pre outs.
I just like the looks of Yamaha.

If there is a amazing budget AV with front pre outs that will do just fine for a center channel 3.0, I'm more than happy to hear about it.


Could I use the Naim uniti Atom on pre outs for Left and right channel?
Just to be sure in case I will fall for that gorgeous machine ;-)

 

[CrazyN3S]

If you want surround sound then the best way to achieve that is by buying those music discs that are produced with 5.1 sound, or even Atmos. They can be found now on blu ray and it does seem to be a growing market. DVD-A has come and gone altough there are still albums around that you can pick. The other is multi channel SACD, quite possibly the most expensive to buy.

As for stereo CD, then stick to stereo, don't go down the route of using an upmixer on an AV amp. AV amps for music is something of a contentious issue, especially so with stereo sources. I've got a high end Denon and I still don't like it for music, it cannot match my stereo amp. You can still work one into the set up using the same front speakers if you have one with HT by-pass.

Also for stereo playback there are some pretty good, if not outstanding, CD players on the market at the moment to suit all budgets.

Yeah I've dropped my option to go for a high end AV with hope to get HiFi stereo. Notr going to happen I see.

I'm curious about your thought on the Naim Uniti Atom (All in one) for HiFi music. It has al the new generation playback options and rca inputs for CD input and more. I'm not in need of a CD player now but maybe if I ever want to spin my disc again, I could hook one on this machine.

I never stepped into SACD and above. regular CD is what is enough for me.
I'm interested in taking a Tidal or Apple Music subscription for achieving that CD quality of source in music streaming. Spotify will also come with HiFi services later this year.
Again... This would make a device like the Atom a joy!

 

[CrazyN3S]

Haha, now I am following you. AVR receivers are not my field either.

Still I understand what you mean with pre out. You want the best off both worlds. One stereo amplifier, one AVR receiver. So you can use the stereo amplifier for music, the AVR receiver for movies.

Stereo amplifiers with pre out are Rega, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha. But more expensive ones.

Great AVR are also the ones above, expect for Rega. I don’t think Rega even makes them.

Pioneer, Onkyo are two wild cards to perhaps consider for both AVR/stereo use.

Yes I think your on my page now. Thank you for some brands to Google.

 

[gibbsy]

I'm curious about your thought on the Naim Uniti Atom

Unfortunately I'm not a Naim fan. I disliked how a Naim Nait amp performed with my KEF speakers and the amp was discounted. I've no experience with the Uniti.

 

[TheHighFlyingBirds]

In the current Yamaha range, I believe that getting an AVR with front pre-outs will require a model from the Aventage range as I believe this feature was dropped from the budget range.

The RXV6A has front L&R pre-outs, which would work.

 

[CrazyN3S]

Unfortunately I'm not a Naim fan. I disliked how a Naim Nait amp performed with my KEF speakers and the amp was discounted. I've no experience with the Uniti.

It's refreshing to read a dislike to Naim. Like I said... I was curious towards your thoughts.

I don't know the brand Naim at all.
I do realise that the big display for showing album covers etc. is pure luxury. I can do that on my phone which I will have in hand when listening from the couch.
The "all in one" factor is appealing me.

Thanks for your respons.

 

[CrazyN3S]

The RXV6A has front L&R pre-outs, which would work.

And it has the same new Yamaha look (I like it for a AV)
Unfortunately this receiver suffers from HDMI 2.1 passthrough problems like I have mentioned in my original post. They can't be fixed with firmware like Yamaha said before.

BAD BAD Yamaha on that one. But I think it's a mistake in parts. Denon and others suffer the same problems.

Maybe a newer model will have different hardware just for the HDMI 2.1

 

[Paul7777x]

Simple enough.

2.2 stereo with room correction.

Arcam SR250 (Black)

Shop for Arcam SR250 Black Network Stereo Receiver with Richer Sounds for expert advice and lowest prices guaranteed

www.richersounds.com

Plus speakers an sub(s) of your choice.

There’s no sense in buying an AV receiver and just using the 3.0 approach.

 

[Khazul]

The AV reciever will only be "on" for series or movies and ONLY for a center channel signal. Thats it. No Dolby Atmos or 5.1.

There’s no sense in buying an AV receiver and just using the 3.0 approach.

Except for the 5.1 -> 3.0 downmix. Some even have a virtual surround mode specifically for this (never tried it).

Also center channel is better to anchor dialog, but IMHO only really useful if you have a habit of sitting off center as it tends to better anchor the dialog in that case, however, if always sitting in the ideal center spot, then agree - I don't really see the point. If anything, lack of a center speaker at least allows the dialog to be in the screen instead of below or above it.

Other reason for AV is sound sync tweaking, but I think a decent TV has this option as well.

It seems like a stereo receiver with an optical in or an option for HDMI ARC in would be suitable if the OP can ditch the center channel requirement.

However, with hearing issues (tinitus - depending on how bad it is generally) then maybe some feature of an AVR for dialog boosting for eg and the room correction and an adjustable EQ curve will help alot in terms of improving dialog clarity and general de-cluttering of lower mid range which is often a problem in many rooms and certainly impacts dialog clarity if there is too much of a room boost (or from an AV cabinet) in this frequency band.

The Arcam SR250 may actually be a good option if the center channel can be ditched. I know Yamaha have (or at least had) a virtual surround mode and virtual sub making 3.0 viable - not sure about Denon/Marantz.

As for firmware updates for HDMI 2.1 - I do not see what this is a problem if they have a firmware fix - was there also a hardware issue too requiring a return or some external fix device? If so, it just seems something to confirm with a dealer first that you get a model with a safe serial number if applicable.

 

[CrazyN3S]

Simple enough.

2.2 stereo with room correction.

Arcam SR250 (Black)

Shop for Arcam SR250 Black Network Stereo Receiver with Richer Sounds for expert advice and lowest prices guaranteed

www.richersounds.com

Plus speakers an sub(s) of your choice.

There’s no sense in buying an AV receiver and just using the 3.0 approach.

Never heard of that machine and Dirac.

The only problem this device has is the outdated HDMI ports.

I will look more into it and search for a place to listen to this machine at least once.

 

[CrazyN3S]

Except for the 5.1 -> 3.0 downmix. Some even have a virtual surround mode specifically for this (never tried it).

Also center channel is better to anchor dialog, but IMHO only really useful if you have a habit of sitting off center as it tends to better anchor the dialog in that case, however, if always sitting in the ideal center spot, then agree - I don't really see the point. If anything, lack of a center speaker at least allows the dialog to be in the screen instead of below or above it.

Other reason for AV is sound sync tweaking, but I think a decent TV has this option as well.

It seems like a stereo receiver with an optical in or an option for HDMI ARC in would be suitable if the OP can ditch the center channel requirement.

However, with hearing issues (tinitus - depending on how bad it is generally) then maybe some feature of an AVR for dialog boosting for eg and the room correction and an adjustable EQ curve will help alot in terms of improving dialog clarity and general de-cluttering of lower mid range which is often a problem in many rooms and certainly impacts dialog clarity if there is too much of a room boost (or from an AV cabinet) in this frequency band.

The Arcam SR250 may actually be a good option if the center channel can be ditched. I know Yamaha have (or at least had) a virtual surround mode and virtual sub making 3.0 viable - not sure about Denon/Marantz.

As for firmware updates for HDMI 2.1 - I do not see what this is a problem if they have a firmware fix - was there also a hardware issue too requiring a return or some external fix device? If so, it just seems something to confirm with a dealer first that you get a model with a safe serial number if applicable.

Yes. I agree that a 3.0 setup is very underrated. A center speaker would compliment a stereo setup when it comes to movie entertainment.

Suprisingly hard to realise within simplicity.

As for the HDMI 2.1 fix. I know Yamaha will offer a circuitboard swap. To realise this. You have to send you AV their way and wait. With todays chip and shipping problems who knows how long you will be without your AV.
Than you think you have full HDMI 2.1... WRONG. They will use a compressed bandwidth tech.

Like I said. It's not the audio brands at fault. It's the industry that is messing up HDMI 2.1 at a chiplevel. But hey, we buy them from the brands.... So yeah...

 

[CrazyN3S]

UPDATE:

I will drop the need for a 3.0 system right now. No more need of a AV and centerspeaker.

Like Khazul said...

Good speaker placement should be doing wonders for clarity.
When watching a movie I will be sitting in the dead center.
I guess good stereo would already be an upgrade to my listening experience in general.
Also. I don't have a center speaker right now so maybe I will not miss them.

info:
Listening through some (active) JBL LSR305 right now with EQ on flat from sources.
I like the flat because of the clarity. And I still think these small JBLs have bass lol.

 

[ChuckMountain]

Than you think you have full HDMI 2.1... WRONG. They will use a compressed bandwidth tech.

Compressed signal is part of the HDMI spec and the LG TV's only have 40Gbps HDMI input anyway. Not sure what you are missing out on? Compression does not always mean lossy.

If I were you I would be looking at the combined AV amp and Stereo options, but I appreciate that might be beyond your budget.

The rationale is that the AV amp can handle any audio format you send against it including all the HD audio ones and decode appropriately. Even if that is ultimately to downmix to 2.0/3.0. Playback devices don't always support DTS\HD Audio. Also depending on where you are doing the DAC they will probably be better in the higher end AV amps.

Also, room correction which some people even in the HiFi circles love is built in to the AV amps.

By plugging the stereo only items direct to the stereo amp you bypass the AV amp and potentially get the best of both worlds for stereo music and engage the AV amp and stereo amp when you to watch stuff.

You could also go for just a processor but don't think there are any sensibly priced ones, particularly with working HDMI 2.1

 

[ChuckMountain]

UPDATE:

I will drop the need for a 3.0 system right now. No more need of a AV and centerspeaker.

Like Khazul said...

Good speaker placement should be doing wonders for clarity.
When watching a movie I will be sitting in the dead center.
I guess good stereo would already be an upgrade to my listening experience in general.
Also. I don't have a center speaker right now so maybe I will not miss them.

info:
Listening through some (active) JBL LSR305 right now with EQ on flat from sources.
I like the flat because of the clarity. And I still think these small JBLs have bass lol.

Sorry was writing my response while you wrote yours. Still believe that you lack control over downmix and room eq

 

[CrazyN3S]

Compressed signal is part of the HDMI spec and the LG TV's only have 40Gbps HDMI input anyway. Not sure what you are missing out on? Compression does not always mean lossy.

If I were you I would be looking at the combined AV amp and Stereo options, but I appreciate that might be beyond your budget.

The rationale is that the AV amp can handle any audio format you send against it including all the HD audio ones and decode appropriately. Even if that is ultimately to downmix to 2.0/3.0. Playback devices don't always support DTS\HD Audio. Also depending on where you are doing the DAC they will probably be better in the higher end AV amps.

Also, room correction which some people even in the HiFi circles love is built in to the AV amps.

By plugging the stereo only items direct to the stereo amp you bypass the AV amp and potentially get the best of both worlds for stereo music and engage the AV amp and stereo amp when you to watch stuff.

You could also go for just a processor but don't think there are any sensibly priced ones, particularly with working HDMI 2.1

I know some LG TVs only have 40Gbps and not the full 48Gbps. Technically compressed? Yes, but not a "pratical" problem as the bandwidth is enough for al features. Maybe a tiny small chroma downsampling.
The HDMI 2.1 (HARDWARE) fix for 2020 AVs will be much lower than those 40Gbps chips in LG TVs. This will be a problem when you want all the goodies in video signal.

Yes my budget is not endless.

My Xbox will be mostly the source for Netflix, Spotify etc.
The Xbox series X can send the following audioformats:

uncompressed stereo
uncompressed 5.1
uncompressed 7.1
Bitstream DD, DTS, Atmos, DTS:X

Then there is also the option to select passthrough along those formats. Very thoughfull of Xbox.

I only use uncompressed stereo, passthrough. This goes (HDMI) into my TV and than optical out --> simple DAC--> (active) JBL LSR 305

I just need a good (intergrated) stereo amp to replace that simple DAC in the chain. JBL 305 will be swapped for the Klipsch rp8000f

Room correction is something I never tried but can fully understand the benefits. Nobody lives in a perfect acoustic room.

I think we are back to something like the Yamaha RN803d. It has room correction!!!

I've looked into single processors or mono blocks. All to complex and expensive for what I'm trying to realise. So goodbye multichannel for no. Stereo is what I will start with.

 

[CrazyN3S]

Sorry was writing my response while you wrote yours. Still believe that you lack control over downmix and room eq

Look like I'm back at the Yamaha R-N803 ;-)

 

[Mark.Yudkin]

If you can stretch to it, the Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 would likely be the best stereo solution for nearly your budget (USD 2,230 is over your USD 1,900 but not by much), as it provides all the facilities you'd need or want.

Since all video will necessarily be routed through the TV, the lack of HDMI 2.1 in the amplifier is inconsequential.

 

[ChuckMountain]

Yes agree with @Mark.Yudkin that the Lyngdorf would be a good option. Thought the budget included speakers but yes if that's not the case and you can go for it that would be good.

Also with the new TV I would look to use the built-in apps as you can benefit from DV on Disney+ etc and not have to use the Xbox.

I would still want a bit more control from my source player (for external films anyway) to ensure that you are getting the highest quality audio stream to downmix.