Hi-Fi Manufacturers slow to adapt?

b) They (in most cases) have no idea how these devices work nor have the time or inclination to find out.

:clap: Which is exactly the point i was trying to make and which you called me patronising for!

Part of the slowness in moving away from physical media to all digital is not just down to the device makers, but the general public having to learn a new technology. I never at any point inferred this was because people can't because they are not clever enough, but its a major change of concept.

With a cd you pop to the shop, buy it, pop in in the CD player, press play and thats it pretty much it. With digital it's not that simple, you have to find learn how to rip a CD; what software do it need? what format? what bit rate? What does that mean anyway? how do i set it all up? how do it use this much more in depth UI? How do it use this internet radio etc? How do i back up my music? Which devices is best for me? Plus a million more questions and things to understand. Its not just a case of manufactures being ready, it's Jo Bloggs too. Like i said, it chicken and egg.

Apple have done well for themselves by making iTunes fairly simple to use (although its horrible bloatware these days, but that another topic), that mostly where it's success come from. But with ease of use there is usually a trade off in quality and flexibility - which is one of the biggest complaints of iTunes (limited codec etc). When it comes to proper HiFi, multi-room and home entertainment systems, as wonderful as many iPod docks are, this approach is not well suited as everyone is not using the same equipment or has the same needs.
 
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Also, as someone else mentioned, DRM and the music industry have also hampered HiFi manufactures adoption of digital audio. Given that the vast majority of people download via iTunes and that until recently there was no DRM-free options, people will be reluctant to buy a new player if they will have to re-purchase all their music.

Thankfully that changing now and most music download sites don't use DRM.
 
Don't disagree with any of that. it is just to the average 'man in the street' the main focus is the 'Big Screen TV' as the centrepiece. Then of course they have to buy a DVD with a HD connection and upscaling or get a BD Player. It is then, and only then that they think about sound.

And as I described all they want is something that is simple, sounds reasonable (or at least better than the old dusty hi-fi stuck in the corner) which an AV Receiver with decent speakers can provide and they are happy.

They simply are not interested in anything different/better.

And there it is and who are we to try and facilitate change.

They just want some thing that looks good sounds good to them and will impress their dinner party guests who then want the same and nag the husband/fiance on the way home to get the same. (now that is patronising:D)

Sorry, but that is just the way it is at the moment.

They would rather upgrade the car to a BMW than a Linn for example.

I hope you can see what I am saying and it is going to take a major culture change to convince people to change priorities. Unfortunately not everyone is into high tech music but nonetheless we can still influence so they end up with an acceptable system for them.

However, there are people like your good self that clearly are and all the best to you. This is a world of so much choice and not just in hi-fi and people compromise on everything in the current climate. Cheers

Edit: Missed your latest whilst posting but what is DRM - save me googling
 
It's a very good point that the technology is not very easy to use. The forums are full of people looking for cures to every MP3 player/PC interface/and disc operating system going.

I use EAC to copy my discs, had to re-install it after a computer crash that meant all my music files were deleted. Setting EAC up again for OGG has been so difficult that I am simply ripping using conventional MP3 using WMP.

I think we are miles away from reliable/simple/intuitive interfaces for the vast number of the population. If you look at the age demographic in the UK, the ratio of >50 to young people is frightening. Generally those over the age of 50 have already chosen a format and collected their lifes worth of music on a system they have owned for a number of years.

Most of those in this group will have had exposure to MP3 players and many have them as a portable source of music which they rip using propritory software (probably the reason the Apple are so popular is the percieved ease of use and simplicity of transfer either by ripping or itunes).

So, you are left with a few early adopters of the technology (other than simplle use as an auxiliary portable player). Some want to stream the sound and video around the house, but that really is quite a small market. Some like the convenience of everything on a pc, agin a very small market.

Finally you have the audiophile market, which has shrunk to a tiny pool (just look at how few hifi shops there are now). Most people dont want hulking big systems littering their tiny apartments or miniature four bedroomed abodes. So these people might buy an ipod and dock, or something built into a micro system.

For the hifi manufacturer, making the leap into this tiny little market must be very daunting. It's so quick moving compared to the glacially slow progress of traditional hi-fi which even now is still developing the vinyl spinners which were supposed to have vanished 20 years ago.
 
Hi Karkus, Thats very true. I do not consider myself a geriatric but yes age and demograpics do have a large bearing on the Industry. I do own an iPod and use ITunes easy to use, convenient amd I can rip/burn as I choose.

I quite like iTunes to burn random tracks on to CD for use in the car. Don't sound to bad on a CD player either for that matter.:)
 
SWMBO - Stands for?

She Who Must Be Obeyed - meaning the wife.


And since someone else asked, even though I already answered it -

DRM - Digital Rights Management or a common copy protection scheme that has now been or is being abandon.


I agree that currently, the type of media players we are talking about are not where they need to be yet.

Though I think young people who enjoy music are going to bring digital files to the forefront of society, just as they did with iPods and iTunes.

But, that basic model is eventually going to be expanded by older people and true HiFi fanatics. They demand better quality, but they also demand universal availability. Many websites are trying to compete with iTunes, but they are mostly pushing standard MP3, though some have moved to improved MP3 formats. But MP3 doesn't equal iTune format, and Hi-Def MP3 don't equal Hi-Def iTunes. However, there are file formats available that exceed all of them listed do far. But, the sites selling music are not making them available. And until the better formats are universally available, and until the player are there in a consistent and reliable way to play the music, even on computers the market isn't going to settle down.

As I've said before, the Universal Medial Player is going to have to be a full computer and is going to have to have a smooth clean easy to use interface that allows you to both get new music, and to organize and play your existing music, and it would be nice, if it has the ability to backup you music and videos as well.

I think the hardware (computer) part is easy enough, but I still say that those who succeed are the ones who will have the most flexible and easiest to use, as well as easiest to upgrade software. That's how iTune and Apple won the race, but providing smooth consistent access and use from the purchase to the ear. Now what needs to happen is iTunes on a more open universal scale.

But, at minimum, in todays market, such a universal medial player is going to run about £200 to £300 if you want computer, user interface, USB, wirelss networking, media card reader, hard disk storage, etc.... That is a little to steep for the average consumer. I think before consumer will embrace the universal media player, it is going to have to drop below £100.

I see the same thing with BluRay, Sony is cashing in on the premium from early adopters, but the volume would increase massively if the player were under £100. Right now I can by a universal disk player for about £20, and it will play standard CDs, computer generated file formats, as well as DVD video discs. When something is that cheap, it is easy for it to be universally accepted by the market.

It is going to be more difficult to get true universal players down that low, especially if the makers insist on proprietary or royalty based aspects. In the current market, I think clear but open standards are the way to go.

Which again brings us back to the 'middle man'. The entire creation, packaging, marketing, and distribution of entertainment media needs to be re-thought. The current 'powers that be' are too entrenched in the model that make them so much money in the past, and that model simply no longer works. They are trying to hold on to a dinosaur while we are all rapidly moving into the modern age.

Keep in mind, that I love physical analog media, I would prefer that we either adopt something along the line of SACD without the gimmicks, or we just stuck with plain old vinyl. So, my saying that pure digital non-physical formats are the future, are not words that come easy.

But, I'm a realist, if the standard CD were 4 to 8 times better than it is (referring to sample rate again) then there would be little that could touch them, assuming of course that they were recorded properly, meaning ease up on the level compression. As I said, I have a knob I can use if I want it louder, I don't need some recording engineer trying to create the illusion of loudness.

That fact that several people have already linked to existing (somewhat) universal media players indicates that this idea is not lost on manufacturers, but I think they are struggling with the price of the product and that lack of high quality universally available media files. Keep in mind that 'Ripping' doesn't come into play here. That is simply changing one format to another. We are talking about high quality media files being readily available for dirt cheap at the click of a button (or icon). Easy enough for your grandmother to use.

I think that is coming, as I have said before. We are not quite there yet. I think to some extent, it is up to the consumer to let the distributors know that MP3 simply doesn't cut it. We want our media in high quality lossless files. Once we have the source of such music, then certainly media players will follow.

Just some more rambling.

Steve/bluewizard
 
stands for?

SWMBO already deciphered by another ... :cool:

I use various others such as :

SWTSOTBO (she who thinks she ought to be obeyed), "The Boss" ... etc, etc

As already mentioned in this thread, not everybody is interested in real hifi sound whether for music or AV use.

For instance my other half really has no great interest in hifi and certainly has no interest in hi-grade AV sound. On the rare occasions she uses the Sony 40" LCD in my study (the one hooked up to my AV system), she invariable ignores the Naim AV2 etc and just uses the TV speakers - that's on the odd day she lets me listen to my main stereo (sigh). That's why I've gradually added to/improved my AV setup to its current (still evolving, IMO) level. I've even known her to use a cheap tranny radio rather than the Naim NAT01!

When asked for advice by friends/former colleagues (well, I am retired), the first thing I ascertain is budget, and the second is whether they are happy with multiple boxes. Nobody yet (apart from one of my son-in-laws) has yet aspired to the heights of my gear, although all think it sounds fabulous. But then, as already said, some of them have much more expensive/powerful cars than my Volvo S60, and get very excited by various other gizmos which leave me cold.

To each his own
 
SWMBO already deciphered by another ... :cool:

I use various others such as :

SWTSOTBO (she who thinks she ought to be obeyed), "The Boss" ... etc, etc

As already mentioned in this thread, not everybody is interested in real hifi sound whether for music or AV use.

For instance my other half really has no great interest in hifi and certainly has no interest in hi-grade AV sound. On the rare occasions she uses the Sony 40" LCD in my study (the one hooked up to my AV system), she invariable ignores the Naim AV2 etc and just uses the TV speakers - that's on the odd day she lets me listen to my main stereo (sigh). That's why I've gradually added to/improved my AV setup to its current (still evolving, IMO) level. I've even known her to use a cheap tranny radio rather than the Naim NAT01!

When asked for advice by friends/former colleagues (well, I am retired), the first thing I ascertain is budget, and the second is whether they are happy with multiple boxes. Nobody yet (apart from one of my son-in-laws) has yet aspired to the heights of my gear, although all think it sounds fabulous. But then, as already said, some of them have much more expensive/powerful cars than my Volvo S60, and get very excited by various other gizmos which leave me cold.

To each his own

This has broadly been my experience. People do tend as far as AV in general terms is concerned, particularly those with children want that big screen first and then everything follows on from that initial purchase i.e. suitable DVD/BD and then some means of sound improvement which generally means an AV amp and speakers. However, as has been alluded to there is a youger generation who already use iPods and therefore iTunes and are now progressing to other forms of streaming devices such as the Squeezebox, Popcorn and many other various such machines out there all with their own unique way both of accessing and presenting music.

Also people are increasingly using their PC's to play music and this method often involves the use of an external Dac conected to a traditional amp and speakers. It seems at the moment that the choices of to access, store and finally play music are endless.

Their are some excellent articles and products on this exact same subject in this years May edition of WHF magazine. Not a publication I would generally recommend but it does provide some good stuff on this specific subject. Cheers
 
As I've said before, the Universal Medial Player is going to have to be a full computer and is going to have to have a smooth clean easy to use interface that allows you to both get new music, and to organize and play your existing music, and it would be nice, if it has the ability to backup you music and videos as well.

Hello mate. With all due respect, i do disagree with that statement. Maybe i am misunderstanding what you mean by a full computer*, but if you watch how the market is evolving its actually quite the opposite.

Linn, Squeezebox, Sonos, Philips, Sony, Roku, Cambridge Audio... all producing devices for hifi audio streamers/servers with decent UI's, sound quality etc, that are increasingly less 'PC' like. The very ethos of Squeezebox for example is to 'free your music' from the PC.

That said, they are certainly more complex and computer like than your average CD player.

Streaming devices (including video) are increasingly replacing the role of HTPC, as people dont want noisy large boxs in their living room.


*of course almost every modern high tech device is a 'computer', iPod's, mobile phones etc - all have a processor, OS, memory, colour screen etc. Admittedly many of these new devices have a hard drive etc, But it's slightly misleading, when people talk about computers, its generally a wintel PC.
 
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Hello mate. With all due respect, i do disagree with that statement. Maybe i am misunderstanding what you mean by a full computer*, but if you watch how the market is evolving its actually quite the opposite.

Linn, Squeezebox, Sonos, Philips, Sony, Roku, Cambridge Audio... all producing devices for hifi audio streamers/servers with decent UI's, sound quality etc, that are increasingly less 'PC' like. The very ethos of Squeezebox for example is to 'free your music' from the PC.

That said, they are certainly more complex and computer like than your average CD player.

Streaming devices (including video) are increasingly replacing the role of HTPC, as people dont want noisy large boxs in their living room.


*of course almost every modern high tech device is a 'computer', iPod's, mobile phones etc - all have a processor, OS, memory, colour screen etc. Admittedly many of these new devices have a hard drive etc, But it's slightly misleading, when people talk about computers, its generally a wintel PC.

I think it depends on your requirements from a "computer",and whatever that entails.

Mine included one box that would play CDs/DVD/BluRay/HD-DVD(!) and also store and stream content,and provide internet access,as well as display to a TV,and in that respect the only option was an HTPC,albeit a silent one,with a very simple user interface.

Both Chord and Audiolab have jumped onto this one,along with UVEM,whose products I use.

My brother in law has a lovely little streamer for video(and I can't think of the name) but the user interface is dreadful.

I think that's one area where there is a lot to be gained and learned in making devices user friendly.
 
I think it depends on your requirements from a "computer",and whatever that entails

Very true, but we are digressing a bit now. I think the original topic was regarding HiFi audio :)

My brother in law has a lovely little streamer for video(and I can't think of the name) but the user interface is dreadful.

I think that's one area where there is a lot to be gained and learned in making devices user friendly.

Yes, most are pretty terrible. Video devices are seriously lagging behind audio only devices IMO, partly because they have had a head start and also because they need to do a lot more for video. Sonos are Squeezebox are the market leads partly because they have nice UI (not unlike the iPod, which most people consider very user friendly). On the topic of video capable devices the AppleTV and Western Digital TV are pretty nice UI wise, as are some Media Center Extenders.
 
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Very true, but we are digressing a bit now. I think the original topic was regarding HiFi audio :)



Yes, most are pretty terrible. Video devices are seriously lagging behind audio only devices IMO, partly because they have had a head start and also because they need to do a lot more for video. Sonos are Squeezebox are the market leads partly because they have nice UI (not unlike the iPod, which most people consider very user friendly). On the topic of video capable devices the AppleTV and Western Digital TV are pretty nice UI wise, as are some Media Center Extenders.

Yep....we are digressing,and I guess we shouldn't.

Thats usually my job!

Apple have always paid great attention to the user,and others would do well to learn from them.
 
Apple have always paid great attention to the user,and others would do well to learn from them.

In some areas yes, they are the grandmasters of user interface design for the masses (albeit often 'borrowed' from other products). All the proprietary stuff is a PITA though TBH.
 
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In some areas yes, they are the grandmasters of user interface design for the masses (albeit often 'borrowed' from other products). All the proprietary stuff is a PITA though TBH.

One of these days I'll figure out how to download the stuff on my daughters' ipods to my PC ... They both have some very nice discontinued titles on them.

Alas, Apple obviously think that such a thing involves piracy, even though such items are not available for purchase. Part of the same mentality that set up that awful nonsense of regional coding for DVDs and blu-ray. The idiots who did that obviously never considered that not all discs are released in all regions :rolleyes: - not to mention those of us who find the approximately semitone change in pitch on R2 DVDs audible and annoying.
 
In an earlier post, I said something to the effect of 'a computer even if it doesn't look like a computer'.

What I means is, it is going to have to have CPU, memory, storage, and some form of user interface to access the features. But, not it doesn't have to resemble a PC. I see it simply as a box that sits with the rest of your audio and video equipment. Today these are called 'media centers', though they are too expensive and not diverse and flexible enough.

Based on the wish list of the discussion, we want tons of storage space in the device, we want access to multiple formats including network, internet, and USB/Firewire/Etc.... We want to be able to access any file in any format and play it with ease. More importantly, we want to EASILY access and organize our files. In a sense this will be a CD Player taken to a whole new level.

There are devices like this out there, but some are too oriented to video, other are too oriented to simply making files on another device accessible, say files on a computer. But other that a full real PC computer, there simply isn't a single device that give full access to media in all formats, and I think the truly univesal media player is what we are talking about here.

So, yes, the equivalent of a full computer, but in a form factor that serves stereo and video.

On the back page of PC World magazine they typically have a composite photo of where they intend to display where they want to see computers and home entertainment going. In the current issue (June '09), they have a TV that is ultra-thin, 42", full keypad touch screen remote with trackball mouse, full internet access, full network access, Blu-ray player built-in, and lots of ports including USB ports and memory card slots.

So, we aren't the only people thinking about this, divergent devices are slowly converging on the very thing we want. By the time it arrives, the files should be readily available, and bandwidth should easily support video download, either for viewing or purchase. And audio files will be accessible just as easily. You should receive streaming Internet Radio, as well as being able to purchase HD HiFI audio files in seconds from your TV/Audio/Video equipment.

So, when I say computer, I don't mean PC, but it will be very very close to it, just integrated into your audio and video equipment.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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On the back page of PC World magazine they typically have a composite photo of where they intend to display where they want to see computers and home entertainment going. In the current issue (June '09), they have a TV that is ultra-thin, 42", full keypad touch screen remote with trackball mouse, full internet access, full network access, Blu-ray player built-in, and lots of ports including USB ports and memory card slots.

.........
So, when I say computer, I don't mean PC, but it will be very very close to it, just integrated into your audio and video equipment.

Steve/bluewizard

Yes...with the speed that integration moves at,you could see that being not so far away.

As long as they have the good sense to put all of the modules on replaceable boards,and not all integrated onto one so that you aren't left with an expensive black wall panel when something goes down.

Thats my rant about servicing over!
 
In an earlier post, I said something to the effect of 'a computer even if it doesn't look like a computer'.

What I means is, it is going to have to have CPU, memory, storage, and some form of user interface to access the features. But, not it doesn't have to resemble a PC. I see it simply as a box that sits with the rest of your audio and video equipment. Today these are called 'media centers', though they are too expensive and not diverse and flexible enough.

Based on the wish list of the discussion, we want tons of storage space in the device, we want access to multiple formats including network, internet, and USB/Firewire/Etc.... We want to be able to access any file in any format and play it with ease. More importantly, we want to EASILY access and organize our files. In a sense this will be a CD Player taken to a whole new level.

There are devices like this out there, but some are too oriented to video, other are too oriented to simply making files on another device accessible, say files on a computer. But other that a full real PC computer, there simply isn't a single device that give full access to media in all formats, and I think the truly univesal media player is what we are talking about here.

So, yes, the equivalent of a full computer, but in a form factor that serves stereo and video.

On the back page of PC World magazine they typically have a composite photo of where they intend to display where they want to see computers and home entertainment going. In the current issue (June '09), they have a TV that is ultra-thin, 42", full keypad touch screen remote with trackball mouse, full internet access, full network access, Blu-ray player built-in, and lots of ports including USB ports and memory card slots.

So, we aren't the only people thinking about this, divergent devices are slowly converging on the very thing we want. By the time it arrives, the files should be readily available, and bandwidth should easily support video download, either for viewing or purchase. And audio files will be accessible just as easily. You should receive streaming Internet Radio, as well as being able to purchase HD HiFI audio files in seconds from your TV/Audio/Video equipment.

So, when I say computer, I don't mean PC, but it will be very very close to it, just integrated into your audio and video equipment.

Steve/bluewizard

Yes, as you say all that's already here, has been for a while. Video is a different kettle of fish, as HD decoding takes more horse power, more complex hardware is required and it's held back, as you say, by the extreme bandwidth requirements - current wireless networks cant handle HD video. But love or hate Apple, the Apple TV is pretty sweet if you can cope with Apples limited format support.

Audio on the other hand is maturing nicely, Squeezebox for example can stream CD quality audio, supports a multitude of formats, internet radio, podcast, online services like Napster all you can eat subscription, last.fm, BBC iPlayer (with plug-in), multiple rooms with synchronisation. And its an absolute joy to use. Likewise with sonos, it all there. I think most people who have not used these would be very surprised just who good there are now. These are proper hifi now, not gimmicks, i wont ever go back to CD in a million years. With iPods in each car, we never have to use the horrible little things again (sorry CD lovers :))

I listen to a lot of music and radio, thats whats important to me. I dont stream video i use DVD's, and even if i watch a DVD everyday, streaming video does not benefit me that much because its a very different way of consumption - i only do it in one room, i rent movies (love film) movie download services are not that great just yet (plus i have very slow broadband too), and i only ever watch a DVD once. That said, i will move to video streaming when the time is right, but they tend, IMO, to benefit the bittorrent users most right now.

So I treat audio and video very separately, at the the transport level anyway. I don't really like all-in-one devices, they tend to be 'jacks off all trades master of none' and can make life harder rather than easier - plus would be pointless in my kitchen! And if a new audio device comes out i want, i can just swap the component out without having to replace everything. As scorpion88 points at, maybe the all-in-one approach suits some, maybe most, but there will always be a separates market (which is what this forum is about) at thats where the quality will be found.
 
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Hi Auto, dont disagree with anything in your last post except I am obviously missing out by only having a horrible CD in my car:D. I do think we have a number, not sure how many, of different markets and consumers at the moment.

It is difficult to describe these without steotyping people and family groups and I wont repeat myself if possible. The first one is the 'family unit' comprehensively described in a post yesterday focussed around the 'Big HD Screen' scenario with associated DVD, Amp and speakers which could consist of 2.0, 2.1. 5.0 or 5.1 etc. Plus increasingly Sky HD. You get the picture I am sure.

Then you have quite a large group of people like myself, yes HD TV but not too big (32"), happy with a decent budget/mid stereo amp, DVD/CD and speakers all in the lounge with CD/DVD collection close to hand. Also computer in same room with iPod and therefore able to download music conveniently through iTunes in a party environment where convenience not quality is important reverting back to CD for more 'intimate' and better quality playing sessions. Similar equipment upstairs in bedroom without HD and computer and generally older gear.

Then you have the more technically minded group such as yourself, younger demographic who have started to embrace Squeezebox, Popcorn, Sonus and the various other available devices which opens up all sorts of opportunities for different bitrates, streaming, file types for audio and increasingly video. I think we all agree that group 1 above have no interest or inclination to adopt this technology. The second group are very happy with their existing equipment but intrigued and watching technological developments as the industry moves at some pace.

The final group is the 'classic' audiophile with a traditional 'high end' CD/Turntable, Amps (pre and power) and high end speakers.

That is how I see the current situation which is very generalised and there exits sub-groups around including those that are happy with iPods (docks) and micro/DAB systems.

It will be intriguing to see how this all 'pans' out.

This is what I see from general observations over recent months.

Cheers
 
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Hi Auto, dont disagree with anything in your last post except I am obviously missing out by only having a horrible CD in my car:D. I do think we have a number, not sure how many, of different markets and consumers at the moment.

Hi mate. I think that you seem to think that because i dont like something, and believe there are much better ways of doing things, that somehow infers i think you are daft for not doing the same, and why we had a spat earlier. That's not the case at all :)

If people like CD's, who am i to argue. If someone have never tried anything else, i will try and inform them of what i think are better options for certain people. It there choice, that does not make them stupid (for the many reasons i have outlined already).

Anyway, for me, CD's drive me nuts because...

* Unlike a well organised and well tagged digital collection, they are much harder to organise and search though.
* I constantly have to keep getting out of my chair to change them (as annoying for me as losing the TV remote).
* They get lost and 'borrowed'
* They damage far to easily.
* They hit the limit of their quality, sample rates etc.
* CD based system's are for more prone to jitter.
* They can only be one place at a time, i can have my digital music on my iPod, squeezebox in my kitchen and lounge etc, all at the same time.
* They store a limited amount audio data (1 album).
* They store a limited about of metadata. CD text is no match for proper tagging, with loads of info, inc lyrics, etc.
* They take up too much room! (i have about 600 albums).
* CD players are unreliable compared to devices with no moving parts.
* They are an ugly piece of plastic and horrible to hold, unlike LP's which are something special. They have no value to me, other than to hold music - which they are not that good at any more.
* You cant do stuff like shuffle albums, tracks or create playlist (manually, or with things like MusicIP).
* i love LP's, but i just simply can not see any benefits of sticking to CD's, at all.

I could go on, but i think i have said enough and will shut up about my great dislike of CD's :rotfl:

I do think we have a number, not sure how many, of different markets and consumers at the moment...

....I think we all agree that group 1 above have no interest or inclination to adopt this technology.

Indeed, i agree you are probably right to a degree. But I'm not an early adopter. I'm an average 32 year old family man. They were on the 4 generation of Squeezebox when i bought one, purely because i was sick of changing CD's and having them skip when scratched. I dont have an LCD TV (old Sony CRT) and dont even have Sky. It was a revelation. So yes, it's difficult to 'pidgin hole' people, but yes there are many different types of people. I just consider myself a music (and radio) lover. I'm certainly not an audiophile, dont have the money, but do make the most of what i have (that and I strongly believe much of what audiophiles spend a lot of their money on makes bugger all difference - especially in the digital arena). My father is a real big screen TV average kind of bloke, mechanic by trade, but he has now bought a internet radio and loves it. Even started dabbling with streaming music from his PC. I would not say there is no interest at all, far from it, but that the conditions for mass take up are not quite right just yet. If you want to group people, it see two main groups - people who just want stuff to work with minimum fuss, and people who like to tinker. Love them or hate them, iPods just work. It's not the same with hifi digital audio - or at least that not the perception people have (i personally think the Sonos is extremely easy, and people who take the plunge often say how surprisingly easy it was, if you have the ability to use an ipod and can also connect your laptop to your wifi router, a sonos is a breeze).



I get your point though, most people are happy with what they have, most generations are (or at least what the salesman in Currys tells them is best). But the thing with all technology, not just this area, is that certain markets drive other markets. A niche product will propagate through to other area's of the market - just like the iPod did. So developments in the more specialised hifi world will filter through to the more average-man-on-the-street eventually, even if they are not crying out for it, and thats what is happening. Companies need to move forwards and they also dont want to be in too many markets at the same time. The likes of logitech and Sonos have a real head start, so many traditional hifi manufactures might have missed the boat, realise this and keep pumping out CD based devices till they die. Sonos and logitech have pretty much got the mid-range market sewn up, it think we will see some interesting battles further up the chain.

Even Sky+ is having an effect on the way people view technology. My mother has Sky+ and it took her a while to get used to not having tapes and lots of programmes stored on one device. A question would be "but where are they?!". But she mastered it now more than she ever mastered her VCR. It's effectively a video streamer, just for sky. Well into her 60's, she now has an iPod for audio books. IMO, its a myth that only the younger generation adopt new tech and trends. For portable audio and throw away mobile phones, that probably true. With stuff like video streaming and proper hifi, it tends to be the more switched on middle aged people with a bit money than the teens (in my experience anyway) and graduate onto decent kit.

The final group is the 'classic' audiophile with a traditional 'high end' CD/Turntable, Amps (pre and power) and high end speakers

That's really changing now, with the likes of Linn in on the game. Lots of new high end stuff coming out all the time now. Possibly more so than the Jo Bloggs type you refer too. Again, that will filter down. It will be the 'el cheapo £80 CD mini-systems that are last to go, IMO, which i think you agree with. And dont forget a lot of this kits very expensive, so to an true audiophile that means a) Well, it simply must be good, and b) gives them that nice warm elitist feeling inside (OMG, i'm joking, please dont kill me!)

Nice chatting to you anyway, i'm enjoying this discussion. Never intended for it to get heated as it did before, i think you mistook me :)
 
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No problems at all with you. I was probably jealous of your obvious technical superiority. I am feeling more humble today.

I've just had a thought. I might go and put my iPod in the glovebox and then connect to the car's cdp through the aux input. Might give it a go later to see if it sounds any better. Might be safer than changing CD's although it does start again at the end of a CD if you get my drift.

Cheers
 
No problems at all with you. I was probably jealous of your obvious technical superiority. I am feeling more humble today.

I've just had a thought. I might go and put my iPod in the glovebox and then connect to the car's cdp through the aux input. Might give it a go later to see if it sounds any better. Might be safer than changing CD's although it does start again at the end of a CD if you get my drift.

Cheers


You are probably more brainier than me mate! i have just a fair bit more experience with digital audio, thats all.

As for that iPod, it might not sound any better than the CD. To get the best sound from a iPod, you really need to use a dock connector at the bottom, rather than the headphone socket, and thus having a proper line out which bypasses the iPods not-so-amazing headphone AMP :thumbsup:
 
Not sure about that, I guess we all have our different talents. Anyway, I am glad we are not fighting anymore, I do not like confrontation - and the ultimate cliche, life is just too short.

Anyhow, quickly tried the Ipod in glove box idea and you were spot on. It does not sound terrible but on this occasion you will have to take my word that the CD does sound better on a cheap JVC player in my old 12 year Old SAAB:D

Still worth a try. I am a bit older than you and remember tearing around in an old Ford Capri windows down with about 6 speakers and a Graphic Equaliser back in the eighties. Bit stupid now when you think about it. Seemed like a good idea at the time.:D

Cheers
 
* CD based system's are for more prone to jitter.
* They can only be one place at a time, i can have my digital music on my iPod, squeezebox in my kitchen and lounge etc, all at the same time.
* CD players are unreliable compared to devices with no moving parts.




Indeed, i agree you are probably right to a degree. But I'm not an early adopter. I'm an average 32 year old family man. I'm certainly not an audiophile, dont have the money, but do make the most of what i have (that and I strongly believe much of what audiophiles spend a lot of their money on makes bugger all difference - especially in the digital arena).

Just pulling out some of your comments:

Cd based systems are not the only systems prone to jitter, a hard disk will manage that when feeding a DAC.

You can run any system in multi room.

CD players are not necessarly less reliable. HD has a fair amount of movement and can be corrupted. Apart from a scratch and eventual physical breakdown, CDs are largely idiot proof and can be moved between machines with total integrity. Even solid state memory has a life span.

Being 32 and having a family does not change the fact that you are an early adopter. We are talking about adopting a system purely for music which is additional to just using a PC.

Your comment on audiophiles might get you into a bit of trouble, it's your opinion and you are entitled to that, but as several posts get down to the nitty gritty of which connector is best then your comments should really be reserved for just such a debate.

I'm going to tell you that if I was happy there was a system that got rid of all my CDs and Vinyl (I'm not a collector, these things just take up space),

gave 100% back up incase of corruption,
gave the same performance or better than my CD player,
could rip my present CD collection in a short time frame while retaining all the cover information,
could rip my vinyl collection (yes, there are several many albums that you cant buy on CD or Vinyl anymore, plus some albums are far better than the CD versions),
Cost under £1500.00, had a screen to view the artwork and song lyrics etc, connected seamlessly to the internet without suffering from potential viruses, had an internet site which contained every album ever released (quite a lot of what I want is not on any of the websites as it is sometimes a bit obscure but is easily found in the average record shop).

At that point I would swap.
 

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