Hey ho silver New Silver 300

password1

Distinguished Member
No amount of breaking in will solve the weaknesses of the c cam tweeter. i had my Monitor Audio speakers for years.

They not particularly good for hand clapping sounds, bee sounds unrealistic.

For the fun factor, the Mission lx speakers will play everything well, cheap to buy and not harsh with strong mid bass.
 

Helix Hifi

Well-known Member
I tried the song, Let Your Smile Be Your Umbrella by Bing Crosby. In the intro there are some high frequency noises which can sound bright on many speakers, to less degree on my old Dali Oberon 5.

Still Dali aren’t bright, just nuanced. Still there is distinct differences between the speakers.

It’s strange how one can change their perspective of speakers once loved in the past, are now not as exiting any more.

The human brain is strange.

Ps, the Silver keep getting better. Bass is now so deep the doors shake. Bad Boy by Billie Ellis as example.

Sorry about editing my replies. My iPad messes up my replies!!
 
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TB Rich

Active Member
@TB Rich, does the bass on the KEF R5 go low? Without subwoofer also.

On some websites they claim 35Hz, some 40Hz. Also are they 3 way speakers like the Silver 300?

I am not about to change my speakers to KEF, just curious.

Yeah they sure do!

I'm afraid all my most up to date REW sweeps are on my laptop but I have this old one saved that shows (in blue) the raw output of the KEF's in my room - 3.3x5.2m (2.3m ceiling).

That's against a nominal 75dB signal, so the -3dB point is around 27hz in room. KEF quote a 29hz in room response, so they are quite correct with their numbers.
I almost didn't even audition the KEF's, because the on paper specs appeared weak - but the reality was between the 300's, the R5's, and 702 S2's, in the demo room at least there was nothing to separate them on the low end stuff.

IMG_0157.jpeg



At face value you don't need a sub at all with these speakers, and I would understand anyone not doing so, after all you're getting sub 30hz output.
However it's a bit lumpy due to the very real problem that effects every speaker in a room. For me very obviously this is a 35hz peak and 42hz null being the 2 biggest ones. Some careful tuning to the speakers and sub can absolutely improve this, and is applicable to any speaker.

Where a sub can really help is when used with PEQ and playing with the ports on a speaker, this combination means you can avoid either the speakers or sub form exciting your room mode.
In the case of the KEF you have 2 ports on them, and they do seem to each have slightly different tuning on them so you can be really quite flexible with blocking or half blocking the ports in different combinations to control the peak that is troubling your room.

This below sweep was with every combination of port blocking on the R5's!
Note my sub was running with these, with a bit PEQ applied to 35hz so the sub didn't just re-cause the same problem, and the sub itself running a 40hz crossover.
So my sub its setup to only literally help extend the very lowest output at the bottom end, from about 35hz down to 20hz flat.
147930253_10159674898219644_6189147864251753840_o.jpeg


Overall on the bigger scale as below, you can see clearly the effect of running port bungs and a sub allows if you look back to the very first graph in blue above!

147308154_10159674913754644_2550062879567988657_o.jpeg


I settled on the purple one (full blocked lower, half blocked top), which gives me so much better (i.e cleaner) bass in room. It really transformed the whole presentation too in fact, because with that +10dB 35hz taken out, the soundstage and top end became more apparently obvious in the presentation.
(And yeah I need to spend time moving my speakers to try and fix the 120hz null I have, likely caused by SBIR, but I plan to get room treatment in before messing again with REW etc!)

Bit of a tangent there on the question sorry!!

But the short answer, control the ports on speakers as needed, and use a sub to bring the bass back in carefully (with a very low crossover and PEQ).
Yes I guess you could do room correction, certainly be easier no doubt, but I'm old school I don't like the idea of applying room correction to my main signal hitting the speakers!!
 

Helix Hifi

Well-known Member
Am afraid all this REW stuff is to complicated for me. Still if understand you correctly the speakers by their own accord can provide hefty deep bass, but you use two subwoofers to make the bass more linear in the listing room.
 

TB Rich

Active Member
Am afraid all this REW stuff is to complicated for me. Still if understand you correctly the speakers by their own accord can provide hefty deep bass, but you use two subwoofers to make the bass more linear in the listing room.
I only use one sub, but yes that's very much what I'm doing.

It's not that bad REW, for what and how I use it anyway, I'm sure you can get more involved with it. But the basic premise is: Stick the mic in your listening spot, click sweep, make some changes to your gear, click sweep again - see if it's improved!!
I think there's value in it when trying to tackle bass, for the everything else I think the subjective merits of Hifi still have their place.

Oh and yeah they are true 3 way also.
The UniQ is a coaxial mid and tweeter, the other 2 drivers low end. The design itself is a d'appolito configuration with the mid/tweeter being in the middle of the 2 bass drivers top and bottom.

This d'appolito configuration, especially in conjunction with the coaxial UniQ, means they have excellent natural time alignment between all the drivers. I think this allows for a simpler crossover design - but at that point it's too technical for me! I'm still stunned by them every time I play them is what counts right! :)
 

Helix Hifi

Well-known Member
I find the Hive ports on the Silver 300 speakers makes the speakers very forgiving when it comes to the correct placement of the speakers in the room.

The speakers are located only 20 cm from the back walls, side walls. Madness if you ask me.

I use one song by Neil Young called On The Losing End To fine tune the bass response. In the song there is bass line which goes pretty deep. Not measured the bass response in the room yet. Still I needed subwoofer before to produce the bass response correctly before, not any more. I of course notice on movies that subwoofer would be nice. Epically Jabba The Huts laugh. 😂.


I’ve owned d’appolito speakers before. Old System Audio speakers. The tweeter response is unique. I believe System Audio don’t design the speakers in the same fashion now.

Dali Oberon 9 uses the same design also. Strange as the 5 and 7 does not.
 

TB Rich

Active Member
I find the Hive ports on the Silver 300 speakers makes the speakers very forgiving when it comes to the correct placement of the speakers in the room.

The speakers are located only 20 cm from the back walls, side walls. Madness if you ask me.

I use one song by Neil Young called On The Losing End To fine tune the bass response. In the song there is bass line which goes pretty deep. Not measured the bass response in the room yet. Still I needed subwoofer before to produce the bass response correctly before, not any more. I of course notice on movies that subwoofer would be nice. Epically Jabba The Huts laugh. 😂.


I’ve owned d’appolito speakers before. Old System Audio speakers. The tweeter response is unique. I believe System Audio don’t design the speakers in the same fashion now.

Dali Oberon 9 uses the same design also. Strange as the 5 and 7 does not.
I believe about 1m from walls is preferred to avoid/lessen the effect of SBIR, but it's not practical in most non-dedicated rooms (not for me anyway! I have about 40cm-60cm from the various front and side walls). Realistically as the speaker moves closer or further away - it simply moves any nulls up or down the frequency spectrum - it's very hard (unless your room is massive) to get speakers to not suffer this problem to some extent.

The only advantage to further away is it seems to usually moves the null up higher, and the higher the frequency the easier it is to treat. For me at 120hz is not too bad in that it doesn't need crazy thick panels to deal with that. But for the sort of 30-40hz null that the ports were creating before, that's almost impossible to treat! I think that's why getting the speakers out is most of the time beneficial.
The other option is to go the lyngdorf suggested route, and actually put your speakers up flush to the wall, that ensures no cancelation (well from the front wall at least anyway).

I find my setup does well enough with cinema, but I've set it up for Hifi first and foremost. I went and saw Ghostbusters yesterday though in the Odeon iSense screen, - and yeah I need way more subs in my house to get that level bass! Thinking I might buy a ported sub, run that for movie use only, and keep my sealed BK as it is for only 2ch music.

I wonder if the Dali Oberon 9 design is probably mostly about keeping the tweeter at the best average height, I imagine if they kept the same layout then it would have put the tweeter too high perhaps?
I really like Dali based on my Zensors I have, I wanted to get a demo of Opticon 6 but never managed to get it sorted.
 

Helix Hifi

Well-known Member
The speakers keeps improving. More warmth, but also more air. The speakers also disappears completely in the listing room. You don’t notice if you listen to bass, midrange, tweeter.

The bass, it’s incredibly.

Don’t know if you remember the original ending song to Return of the Jedi.

Right in the left speaker there is Evoke voice. So the imaging is better then it was at the beginning.

Anyway I like more focused soundstage. It is huge difference moving from Dali to Monitor Audio.

They should be, because the speakers cost little over twice as much money as the Dali Oberon 5.

Listing to the Dali Opticon 6 MK2 I don’t get the boogie factor the MA gives.

Silver are refined to an extent, but Dali focuses on refined, finesse. So the Dali speakers are bit boring.

The Opticon in my opinion don’t go as low in the bass as the Silver.
 

password1

Distinguished Member
The speakers keeps improving. More warmth, but also more air. The speakers also disappears completely in the listing room. You don’t notice if you listen to bass, midrange, tweeter.

The bass, it’s incredibly.

Don’t know if you remember the original ending song to Return of the Jedi.

Right in the left speaker there is Evoke voice. So the imaging is better then it was at the beginning.

Anyway I like more focused soundstage. It is huge difference moving from Dali to Monitor Audio.

They should be, because the speakers cost little over twice as much money as the Dali Oberon 5.

Listing to the Dali Opticon 6 MK2 I don’t get the boogie factor the MA gives.

Silver are refined to an extent, but Dali focuses on refined, finesse. So the Dali speakers are bit boring.

The Opticon in my opinion don’t go as low in the bass as the Silver.
I have the complete opposite experience as you. I have the Opticon 6 mark 2 and have demoed silvers and used to have MA Gold gr10 which have the same c cam and rst technology and much of the same characteristic.

The Opticons have that Dali magic and more fun in the bass and a more refined non harsh treble.
 

moujik

Member
I have the complete opposite experience as you. I have the Opticon 6 mark 2 and have demoed silvers and used to have MA Gold gr10 which have the same c cam and rst technology and much of the same characteristic.

The Opticons have that Dali magic and more fun in the bass and a more refined non harsh treble.
What do you drive your Opticons with? Funny that mk2 is less sensitive than mk1 :)
 

password1

Distinguished Member
I thought they're the same, both 88db sensitivity?

Initially Arcam Alpha 9 r bi amp (i may use these for other speakers)

Now using a single Arcam FMJ A28. The main reason for using a single amp is because my electricity has gone up in price
 

Helix Hifi

Well-known Member
Room, amplifier play large role too. All I can say is that both Dali, Monitor Audio are great speakers.

Dali top end is more crips (very detailed) but it’s also tad flat. MA paints the tweeter with more colors. It’s also softer then Dali.

Still again there’s more attack in the MA speakers compared to Dali. This surprise me since Dali is not slow in the sound.
 

moujik

Member
I thought they're the same, both 88db sensitivity?

Initially Arcam Alpha 9 r bi amp (i may use these for other speakers)

Now using a single Arcam FMJ A28. The main reason for using a single amp is because my electricity has gone up in price
Opticon 6 mk1 listed as 89db. How are Arcams? I've heard they generally lack excitement..
 

password1

Distinguished Member
I find the c cam tweeters very detailed but artificial and slightly coloured. They exaggerate between the 1 to 2 khz region. A little harsh when turned up.

I find Arcam have plenty of current, smooth, the older Alpha amps are warmer and powerful.
 

MaryWhitehouse

Well-known Member
Since when did a subwoofer get accepted in a HiFi stereo setup? :)

I must be too old fashioned (binary)
Try it. Properly integrated its a revelation.
 

FootHealer

Active Member
Try it. Properly integrated its a revelation.
I agree, but "properly integrated" without DSP and room treatments (e.g. bass traps) isn't easy. My experience of trying to integrate a sub without these was very disappointing. I currently don't have any subs, but am considering one with DSP built in, plus getting some bass traps. Sadly, my wife isn't keen on the acoustic treatments, so I may have to start with DSP.
 

MaryWhitehouse

Well-known Member
I agree, but "properly integrated" without DSP and room treatments (e.g. bass traps) isn't easy. My experience of trying to integrate a sub without these was very disappointing. I currently don't have any subs, but am considering one with DSP built in, plus getting some bass traps. Sadly, my wife isn't keen on the acoustic treatments, so I may have to start with DSP.

I can imagine my Mrs would be thrilled with bass traps too! In my room not yours admittedly I found it time consuming but very easy as long as done slowly. The steps in this article are perfect:

 

MaryWhitehouse

Well-known Member

moujik

Member
Lol I see. Not so much how much as how good though.
yeah.. I had to lower the tracking weight to minimum recommended and go for spike bracing.. still the bass's a bit unrully for Io sometimes.. Had I gone for an amp with a sub, its power would have tightened the bass without a sub, I believe..

But I fully expect two speakers to immerse me enough :)
 

Helix Hifi

Well-known Member
I don’t feel I need more bass then what I got at the moment. The bass is deep, punchy. The two 6 inch bass drivers move lot of air.

Still my view about subwoofers might change in the future.

Another controversial topic!!!

I have the Node2i. At the times Airplay 2 starts skipping (like robot talking sound) ,after changing to Audio Quest Forrest network cable, this issue completely disappeared.

The sound is also better then standard cheap Cat 6 LAN/network cable.

How this is possible I simply don’t know!? Not kidding. It is not night/day sound difference. Still the sound to some degree is better. Blacker back ground, more details.

The Forrest network cables direction is from the Zyxel switch to the Node2i.

I’ve tried Supra Cat8, or is it Cat 8e they are calling it. There is absolutely no sound difference at all between cheap Cat 6 vs audiophile network cables. At least with the Supra cable.

Tried several test to see if the Forrest is better. Let it stream music during the night. Took the same test today-same result.

The only explanation I can think I of is the following...

Data packets is faster now. This is not false claim, because Cat 7, Cat 8 are faster then Cat 6. If am wrong about this, please enlighten me.

Plus the AQ is shield.

I was cable fanatic before. After reading about Avg (gauge). I’ve come to the conclusion the reason there “might” be any sound differences between speaker cables is because of the thickness of the cable. Less resistance. Not because expensive audiophile speaker cable is better.

Now use 4 mm2 speaker cables, which I believe is roughly 13/12 Avg.

I don’t hear any sound difference at all between 2.5 mm2 (14 Avg), against the 4 mm2 speaker cables.

Anyway I want go out and buy expensive cables again. Like I did before. Don’t believe I am alone in doing this mistake.

However I do use Chord Clearwater RCA cables, simply because they are shielded.

While back I tried cheap RCA cables, I experienced hiss/hum. After getting properly shield RCA cables this issues is much better.

There we’ll probably be forum members laughing at me. I’ve done the same to others who says digital cables sound better.

Again, perhaps the AQ is better, because my hifi kit strangely enough like the AQ better.

The Forrest network is not expensive either, so I thought what do I have to lose. If they don’t work, I well return them.

Anyway just my 2 cents.
 
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Helix Hifi

Well-known Member
Sorry about editing my post. I have the tendency to write really fast, plus my iPad keeps suggesting other words. Like reading instead of regarding!

Annoying!
 

Helix Hifi

Well-known Member
After owning the Silver 300 for about 6 weeks. I’d like to share my experiences.

First, this speakers need break in. Don’t let anyone tell you they don’t! At first I came to the conclusion they sound fine brand new.

Timbre is now much better. Vocals are smoother now then before. So for people who want speakers which are not tiring, still sound dynamic. Then this are the speakers for you.

One minus, is they need some volume to really shine. At low volume they sound bit soft.

Happy new year!
 

ooctaviuss

Active Member
Yes, I can confirm that. But one thing about your:

One minus, is they need some volume to really shine. At low volume they sound bit soft.

I would say try more powerful amplifier. With my kinki I listen in veeeery low volume in the evening and bass is still there. You need more quick punchy amplifier and then you will get very punchy and crispy sound at low volume too. Yes I agree there is not tiring (no fatigue sound)
 

Kapkirk

Active Member
I don’t feel I need more bass then what I got at the moment. The bass is deep, punchy. The two 6 inch bass drivers move lot of air.

Still my view about subwoofers might change in the future.

Another controversial topic!!!

I have the Node2i. At the times Airplay 2 starts skipping (like robot talking sound) ,after changing to Audio Quest Forrest network cable, this issue completely disappeared.

The sound is also better then standard cheap Cat 6 LAN/network cable.

How this is possible I simply don’t know!? Not kidding. It is not night/day sound difference. Still the sound to some degree is better. Blacker back ground, more details.

The Forrest network cables direction is from the Zyxel switch to the Node2i.

I’ve tried Supra Cat8, or is it Cat 8e they are calling it. There is absolutely no sound difference at all between cheap Cat 6 vs audiophile network cables. At least with the Supra cable.

Tried several test to see if the Forrest is better. Let it stream music during the night. Took the same test today-same result.

The only explanation I can think I of is the following...

Data packets is faster now. This is not false claim, because Cat 7, Cat 8 are faster then Cat 6. If am wrong about this, please enlighten me.

Plus the AQ is shield.

I was cable fanatic before. After reading about Avg (gauge). I’ve come to the conclusion the reason there “might” be any sound differences between speaker cables is because of the thickness of the cable. Less resistance. Not because expensive audiophile speaker cable is better.

Now use 4 mm2 speaker cables, which I believe is roughly 13/12 Avg.

I don’t hear any sound difference at all between 2.5 mm2 (14 Avg), against the 4 mm2 speaker cables.

Anyway I want go out and buy expensive cables again. Like I did before. Don’t believe I am alone in doing this mistake.

However I do use Chord Clearwater RCA cables, simply because they are shielded.

While back I tried cheap RCA cables, I experienced hiss/hum. After getting properly shield RCA cables this issues is much better.

There we’ll probably be forum members laughing at me. I’ve done the same to others who says digital cables sound better.

Again, perhaps the AQ is better, because my hifi kit strangely enough like the AQ better.

The Forrest network is not expensive either, so I thought what do I have to lose. If they don’t work, I well return them.

Anyway just my 2 cents.
Hi Helix, Happy new year to you, reading these posts it seems you are loving your MA 300's, I heard you talk about the bass power so if you really want to see how deep they go and the amp's ability to control it then have listen to some Tara Putra - Dubland mountains (harmonic waveforest remix) and El ritmo De Dub, also their Tara Putra in dubland album really gives your amp and speakers a good work out and the music is pretty enjoyable too. Would sound even more impressive with a good Subwoofer.
 

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