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Help Tosh ZP38 Flickers in Prog Scan

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by BigRD, Jan 20, 2004.

  1. BigRD

    BigRD
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    Hope maybe someone can point me in the right direction here. I wasn't quite sure whether to post in here or in TVs.

    I have a Tosh 32ZP38 and a Tosh DR1 DVD-Recorder. Both can handle PAL/NTSC Prog Scan. I find that whenever I switch the DVD player to PS there's quite a flicker on screen. Is it just that I'm used to 100Hz processed pictures that I notice it?

    I also don't see in increase in PQ from the TVs Active mode to PS.
    I've also tried an Xbox in NTSC PS and it flickers just the same.

    I'd appreciate any advice :smashin:
     
  2. dej23

    dej23
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    I tested out PS yesterday for the first time, due to aquiring a new DVD player. I see a lot of flicker as well, especially when bright colours are shown on the screen.

    Dej
     
  3. BigRD

    BigRD
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    Just phoned Tosh customer support and they told me that they had heard about 3 cases of this in the past 18months and they don't know what causes it. They suggest contacting the seller to arrange an engineers visit. He also mentioned knowledge of the wavy lines on dark images.

    Have also just called retailer and am waiting for a call back. Will keep you posted.
     
  4. gringottsdirect

    gringottsdirect
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    Switching to Progressive Scan, depending on the particular TV usually switches off the 100hz, utilising 50hz or 75hz instead, hence the more noticeable flicker.
    It isn't a fault, it is the design.
    Obviously some are more aware of flicker than others. :cool:
     
  5. BigRD

    BigRD
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    gringottsdirect

    I did expect the TV to display at 50Hz with the nature of Prog Scan but I did think that with there only being effectively 1 field every frame rather than two that the picture would be stable. I have a 25" 4:3 Mitsubishi 50Hz that doesn't flicker anywhere near as much.

    The image is actually quite tiring to watch and I have to switch to interlaced. Kind of defeats the purpose of having a PS TV & DVD.

    What are you using for display?
     
  6. YellowCows

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    Quick Note -

    Toshiba Prog Scan TVs revert to the 'standard' signal frequency in progressive mode - i.e. 60Hz (not 75) for NTSC, and 50Hz for PAL sources.

    This produces a noticeable flicker, especially in the lower refresh rate of PAL 50Hz. Going from one of the TV's 100Hz modes to the progressive mode will further exaggerate the flicker, but your eyes (and brain) will adjust in a couple of minutes. You will still see the flicker, as the eyes can detect it at 50Hz(PAL), less so at 60Hz(NTSC/PAL60), whereas they cannot see the alternating, or redrawn images, when displayed at a frequency higher than 75Hz, which is why 100Hz tellies are called 'Flicker-Free'. They aren't really - the human eye just can't detect it.

    As for BigRD's 50Hz set - the answer is simple, 100Hz sets with a 50Hz mode usually do look more 'flickery' in 50Hz for two reasons - they are optimised for a 100Hz refresh rate, unlike 50Hz sets, which do it far better, and secondly as I mentioned, your eyes are trained to view the 100Hz image, and find difficulty adjusting to the cruder version of 50Hz.

    HTH,

    Moory
     
  7. BigRD

    BigRD
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    Thanks Yellowcows

    I understand and agree with everything you say. Why then would we want PS if the flicker takes away the advantage of non-interlaced pictures? I just think spending £1100 on a TV with PS functionality is pointless then.

    I haven't seen another CRT TV used in PS so I'd appreciate if anyone could tell me if they've tried one i.e another Tosh PF2 or a Panasonic PD30 and tell me what they think.
     
  8. gringottsdirect

    gringottsdirect
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    Utilising genuine Progressive Scan, rather than simulated modes, the picture should be sharper and clearer looking with more detail, compare it on a DVD menu. It is a different priority, detail or " flicker-free ". In addition, market demand for products that will display genuine Progressive Scan inputs force makers to include it in the specification.
    I have a Loewe Aconda 9381ZW 32" TV, getting on for three years old, it has very little flicker and a great interlaced picture. :) I have other display devices too.
    To answer your question, I have investigated Panasonic TX-36PD30, Philips Pixel Plus TVs and various others, JVC, Toshiba and Sony. In every instance I see pronounced flicker when switching off 100hz and trying other modes, whether 50hz, 60hz or 75hz. Panasonic and Philips both utilise 75hz modes, I notice the flicker but to a lesser extent than 50hz / 60hz. The Progressive Scan modes of all the CRT makes I have tried all suffer extreme flicker. I do seem to notice flicker more than most, for instance when Panasonic introduced their 5 series plasma, I noticed several heated exchanges as to its increased flicker compared to previous 4 series. A while later it is now accepted that the flicker is an issue, and Panasonic have worked to reduce it in 6 series and upcoming 7.
    It is frustrating sometimes for those of us who are flicker averse to have pointless posts from those defending their purchase, none in this thread so far, but seeing a TV yourself is the best proof.
    Peripheral vision is more sensitive to flicker, early warning system to alert us to danger, hence if you look sideways past a display or focus your eyes above it rather than look straight on, any flicker will be more apparent, useful when checking in a shop. Bigger and wider displays show the flicker more than a 25" 4:3 TV, also what Yellow Cows posted applies too, of course. :)
     
  9. BigRD

    BigRD
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    gringottsdirect

    You've pretty much described what I believed. It's seams incredible if manufactureres are trying to sell products described as PS when they're actually using a simulated processed mode. I have asked Toshiba Tech Support for advice and they assure me that both my DVD player and TV are pure PS devices and that there shouldn't be any flicker the way I described it to them.

    I was told that PS would give a sharp, detailed, almost 3D look to the image. Sadly that's not the case - interlaced on this TV is far superior. Still waiting for a date for the engineer to call.

    You are also correct about peripheral vision I have noticed a severe increase if I concentrate looking approx 1' to either side of the screen. Handy if any Grizzlies come knocking :)
     
  10. HMHB

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    If all this is true, why does everyone seem to think that PS is the thing to have these days ? Is it just another gimick to get us to part with more money ?
    I've looked at this thread because I have tried my 100hz Panasonic TV in 50Hz mode and found it unwatchable (I thought it might make football more watchable via Sky :rolleyes: )
     
  11. BigRD

    BigRD
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    I hope it's not a gimmick to part us from our hard earned. I picked this TV because it could, allegedly, display pure PAL/NTSC Prog Scan. I'm quite sure I could have spent less for a non PS set. I'll be most upset & annoyed if this is the case.

    Anyone know trading standards number?;)
     
  12. BigRD

    BigRD
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    Spoke to Toshiba Tech Support who assure me that the TV is true PS capable. BUT there's an issue with a capacitor in the PSU that may need replacing and has been done to others to cure picture problems. I'm trying to arrange a visit at the moment.

    P.S. Toshiba regularly read this forum for info about problems, comments etc. Glad to see the manufacturers taking an interest.
     
  13. gringottsdirect

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    Keep us posted. :smashin:
     
  14. Dr Hu

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    I have the 36" version (36ZP38) but do not have a PS DVD player, just a std Tosh 330E - I have noticed though when first setting up the TV, that you can set the picture mode 50Hz, 100Hz, Progressive, Active or Natural.

    On 50Hz its unwatchable - on 100hz it just as bad, on Active or Natural the picture is rock steady.

    I'm guessing that Active and Natural must be going thru some kind of post processing to make it so good, as I expected 100hz to be the dogs, but its shocking to be honest.

    Watching a DVD thru component on Natural or Active is superb - the best picture I have ever seen on a TV......

    The comments above certainly wont make me buy PS player!

    I get the impression that the big tubes flicker more......

    Dr HU

    Denon1803, Tosh 36ZP38, Tosh 330 DVD, Rel Quake, Mission M73's
     
  15. simongwynne

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    I have a DVD player, Xbox, and Gamecube connected via progressive scan, and have only noticed a flicker once, from the xbox (yesterday). It was barely noticable, and could have been down to the game rather than the progressive scan. I'll have a good look at all 3 later this evening, and see if I can spot anything.

    Incidently, the improvement of image quality from the consoles is far greater than from the DVD player, it really is a huge difference, like watching a computer monitor. The DVD, while good, did not produce the difference I was expecting.
     
  16. BigRD

    BigRD
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    simongwynne,

    When testing try and look for wavy lines across the centre of the screen during dark scenes. I can see it clearly on Se7en, Leon (extended NTSC) and LOTRTTT.
     
  17. simongwynne

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    OK, have just had a close look at light and dark scenes from the extended first LOTR, and could not see any flicker or wavy lines. I did see the wavy lines as the disc's menu was loading. Horizontal lines about half a centimetre apart, looking a bit like interference. They were definitely not present during the film though.

    Also everything is fine with the xbox. Did a night course, sitting about 1 foot from the screen, and no flicker or lines are visible. I may have seen some interference when the game was loading, but it's very difficult to tell, I might just be imagining it.

    If I do get the interference, I'm pretty certain it's just when something is loading.

    Hope this helps.
     

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