Help pls - "Upscaling" DVD player - I *think* I want one

Hi

Er, if I feed my PC's output at 1360x768 over HDMI to the LCD TV... and the LCD does 1:1 pixel mapping... err... no upscaling needs to be done

It is unlikely the TV will show this resolution as it isn't a standard HDMI resolution, if it does accept the resolution, it is just as likely to enlarge it to a slightly higher resolution as a TV wants to overscan, i.e. chop some off the tops and sides.

Certainly recording devices based on Linux should be able to upscale and output at this resolution (?)

Well they would if it made any difference, but TV's don't generally as a rule support 1 to 1 pixel mapping, you need a computer monitor for that. Of course even in that case the picture is still upscaled, just by the computer. Do you think a computer or super expensive graphics card will be any better at upscaling? I doubt it, which is why we all go mad for mega pixel camera's as even with the most expensive and powerful PC you can't add any detail just by increasing the pixel count, and that's on very fast powerful computers that can take as long as they want doing it!

If your upscaling device is any good, then inputing 720p to the LCD TV would mean that the TV would only need to upscale a small amount (to 768p) as opposed to badly upscaling 576i/p (SD DVD player, for example) to 768p...

But that is still two lots of upscaling, you are taking real pixels and diluting them with lots of false pixels to get the extra resolution. Your TV then takes some of the real pixels and a probably a lot more false pixels then upscales and dilutes the real detail even more.

Upscaling isn't difficult to achieve. Yes some machines can use all sorts of clever tricks to do a very slightly better job on certain types of footage, but it's only slightly better, not enough to notice when you sit back on the sofa. The chip inside your TV is perfectly up to the job.

Is the conclusion that the best connection is the one for which you already have a lead?

Yes I would say so. Of course if you have needed to buy new equipment that comes with HDMI then use it by all means, but don't re-purchase all your standard definition equipment again just because the latest buzz word is "upscale", it's all marketing is what we are saying.

Having a look in this forum we see no posts from people who have got HDMI on standard definition equipment shouting about how brilliant it is, plenty are wanting it, but those that have then got it seem rather underwhelmed and silent on the matter.

Regards

Phil
 
Hi

It is unlikely the TV will show this resolution as it isn't a standard HDMI resolution, if it does accept the resolution, it is just as likely to enlarge it to a slightly higher resolution as a TV wants to overscan, i.e. chop some off the tops and sides.

Well they would if it made any difference, but TV's don't generally as a rule support 1 to 1 pixel mapping, you need a computer monitor for that. Of course even in that case the picture is still upscaled, just by the computer. Do you think a computer or super expensive graphics card will be any better at upscaling? I doubt it, which is why we all go mad for mega pixel camera's as even with the most expensive and powerful PC you can't add any detail just by increasing the pixel count, and that's on very fast powerful computers that can take as long as they want doing it!
Err... that's why it is important to get a LCD TV set that supports 1:1 pixel mapping... see: http://pixelmapping.wikispaces.com/ and especially the 1366x768 guide.

But that is still two lots of upscaling, you are taking real pixels and diluting them with lots of false pixels to get the extra resolution. Your TV then takes some of the real pixels and a probably a lot more false pixels then upscales and dilutes the real detail even more.

Upscaling isn't difficult to achieve. Yes some machines can use all sorts of clever tricks to do a very slightly better job on certain types of footage, but it's only slightly better, not enough to notice when you sit back on the sofa. The chip inside your TV is perfectly up to the job.
As far as I can see 'upscaling' is a digital process... i.e. something a computer can acheive very easily if you have the right techniques and algorithms... LCD TV's upscaling is done by chip but then a chip is a very small computer... So yes a PC (back to post #2, my PC is £1000+) can upscale a lot better than a chip inside my LCD TV...

Two lots of upscaling... What I am trying to establish is: (A) two lots of upscaling - first good upscale of an extra 144 (720-576) and then second bad upscale of an extra 48 (768-720) is better than (B) one lot of bad upscaling of an extra 192 (768-576).

That is all...
 
I am sure I'll be shot down here, but whilst meaning no offence to those in this thread , I am bewildered by consumers buying cheap CE items, and worrying to such a great extent about connection issues in order to try to attain better quality.

If picture quality was such a concern, would it not make better sense to invest in quality products in the first place?... especially in the area of TV panels , as they are known to be such quality-challenged items.

I don't think we are talking about making cheap equipment better... I am sure that any enthusiast who pick up a £30 DVD player knows what to expect in terms of PQ...

I will give you an example of my case, to make a point about the issues in this thread...

All I want is a big TV (say 37" plus in size)... I want a big screen not a beast (got one already and it's only 28 viewable inches ;)) So the option is plasma or LCD TVs...

So my input sources will be SD (analogous to cheap - if you like). I'm not going to go HD (analogous to quality - as you put it) just because my LCD TV is geared towards this HD... I need to improve the PQ of my already existing (quality) SD devices... do you see?
 
Hi

Err... that's why it is important to get a LCD set that supports 1:1 pixel mapping... see: http://pixelmapping.wikispaces.com/ and especially the 1366x768 guide.

Which is fantastic for something at that exact resolution, such as the Windows desktop, but feeding in a 576i that's been upscaled and squished and squashed, there is no 1 to 1 pixel relationship anyway, so you are not going to see much improvement from going the extra mile to get true 1 to 1 mapping on the last leg of journey!

As far as I can see 'upscaling' is a digital process... i.e. something a computer can acheive very easily if you have the right techniques and algorithms...

But that's just it, there is no algorithm to do magic which can add in more detail that isn't in the original picture. We all know computers are hopeless at real world images, for example, face recognition, because the images are not computer images or from some neat mathematical equation. Millions of pounds go into R&D to get face recognition and it barely works. Do you really think in real time your algorithm (be it in the computer or a TV) is recognising every object in the picture then adding detail intelligently, for example it recognises a face and head with ginger hair then thinks, "I know they would have some freckles with that hair colouring that are missing at this low resolution, I'll add some in to give it more detail" :lease:

So yes a PC can upscale a lot better than a chip...

And me or thousands of others haven't tried this already! I've messed about for hours with various options on my computer connected via HDMI to the TV, and not matter what I did, sticking a DVD in the DVD Player connected via Component gave by the fair the most pleasing and natural picture:lesson:

As for whether two or one upscaling applied will give a better or worse picture just try it.

If you are trying to build yourself a PC with powerful graphics card and processor in the belief it will give you something better and more usable than a £180 PVR connected via that 'long in the tooth' SCART cable, good luck to you.:thumbsup:

So my input sources will be SD (analogous to cheap - if you like). I'm not going to go HD (analogous to quality - as you put it) just because my LCD TV is geared towards this HD... I need to improve the PQ of my already existing (quality) SD devices... do you see?

The way of improving SD is move to high definition. Just connect your existing equipment to the TV via SCART or RGB and that's just about as good as it is going to get, we've gone as far with SD as we can and there isn't a lot more to be done to improve it than will already be sat in the equipment you have.

Regards

Phil
 
Hi
The way of improving SD is move to high definition.

Nooo... I don't want HD... You can't get CBeebies on HD... you can't get CH4 on HD, you can't get Film4 on HD (or can you? ;))... the list goes on...

You see I why want to improve my SD? If all of the BBC channels are available in HD (in Scotland) I will definitely get HD... yup no probs... (or maybe not as I would have to pay my license fee and the Sky HD fee... hmmm, no I'll stick with trying to improve SD ;))

Just connect your existing equipment to the TV via SCART or RGB and that's just about as good as it is going to get, we've gone as far with SD as we can and there isn't a lot more to improve it than will already be sat in the equipment you have.

Regards

Phil
I don't believe so... I will give you an example here... I have a Humax 9200T PVR... I recently bought an LCD TV - 40"... Connected it via SCART via RGB via a good SCART cable to the TV... REALLY CRAP PQ...

BUT I have a modded Xbox (not 360) running XBMC... connected to SCART. I transfered the .ts recording of Dr Who off the Hummy and watched it using XBMC - the PQ was 50% better!!!

Tell me what is going on here?
 
So in your opinion, (and I'm sure others will differ, I know), is "Upscaling" not worth bothering with?...Appreciated.
A lot has been added to this thread since I last looked in.

Anyhow, in my opinion:

- upscaling outside of a TV (so as to drive it with its native resolution) IS worth doing. But only if it's done better than the TV would do it. I can't comment on the relative merits of scalers in various pieces of "normal" hardware, but I can say beyond doubt that a good standalone scaler can and will do a better job than either - and here is where it becomes worth doing.

- last night I watched a standard definition PAL DVD playing via SVideo striaght from a 10 year old DVD player to a newish Sony 40 inch LCD, from a viewing distance of about 8 feet. And found myself wondering whether high-definition was worth doing........(and, yes, my eyesight is fine).
 
If your upscaling device is any good, then inputing 720p to the LCD TV would mean that the TV would only need to upscale a small amount (to 768p) as opposed to badly upscaling 576i/p (SD DVD player, for example) to 768p...

Two lots of upscaling... What I am trying to establish is: (A) two lots of upscaling - first good upscale of an extra 144 (720-576) and then second bad upscale of an extra 48 (768-720) is better than (B) one lot of bad upscaling of an extra 192 (768-576).


Exactly my line of thinking... Phil has actually made me realise the whole concept of 'Upscaling' a lot better. I think!! Is this right:


*Any SD broadcast or Video is going to be in 576, so the TV has to upscale it to its native resolution to fill the screen.

Depending on how good the TV Scaler is depends on the picture, so by rule of thumb I would guess that a scaler in a DVD Recorder (Panny, Sony, etc...) is gonna be better than a standard LCD TV? Unless you get a Sony or Panasonic LCD?? Or am I being a bit naive?!


Is there some sort of website that says what LCD Panel and scalers there are in TV's?? I'd be interested in reading on what panels and scalers are in the TV's I'm intersted in buying!!


Also, can I ask... Will my Freeview PVR running into the back of an Upscaling DVD Recorder via RGB Scart and the DVD Recorder running to the TV via HDMI/Component be a better picture than running my Freeview PVR straight into the back of the LCD via RGB scart?
 
I am sure I'll be shot down here, but whilst meaning no offence to those in this thread , I am bewildered by consumers buying cheap CE items, and worrying to such a great extent about connection issues in order to try to attain better quality.

So basically I would be better off connecting my Panasonic DMR-EH50 to my TV using the composite cables that came with it, yes? :cool:

The question here is, given a piece of equipment and its options for connections which will give the best PQ. Understanding what HDMI gives you and what Scart-RGB gives you is what I am trying to get out of this.
 
I don't think I can support the suggestion that "small" amounts of scaling and "large" amounts of scaling, whether done well or badly, are relevant.

In fact, scaling is easiest when it's a simple positive multiple, and not when it's a "small" amount.

Suppose you had a straight horizontal black line that is exactly one pixel wide in an otherwise white image that has 576 horizontal rows of pixels, and the line is placed exactly on one of these rows. It's easy to reproduce - one row of pixels is black - the rest are white.

Now...

Case 1: Suppose your scaler has to double the pixel size of the image to 1152. In this case, the horizontal line can be reproduced EXACTLY by having two adjacent rows of pixels black and the rest white.

Case 2: Suppose your scaler has to upscale to 768 rows. There is no simple combination of rows of pixels that will reproduce, exactly and sharply, the original position and size of the line in proportion to the new pixel size. The only way it can be done is by having (say, depending on where the line falls in the new pixel structure) one solid black row (which isn't the right thickness, now), and then, above and below it, a row of some shade of grey, to give an impression of the correct thickness of the line.

Now - reproduction of photographic-style images is much more complex and, actually, much more forgiving than a simple line. And where there is motion, a good scaler can study the shapes of objects in successive frames and reconstruct missing detail that way. But I hope this illustrates how the "amount" of scaling isn't a simple concept.
 
Hi

Depending on how good the TV Scaler is depends on the picture, so by rule of thumb I would guess that a scaler in a DVD Recorder (Panny, Sony, etc...) is gonna be better than a standard LCD TV? Unless you get a Sony or Panasonic LCD?? Or am I being a bit naive?!

If you buy a cheap TV, that you think may have a cheaper upscaler in it, will by the same theory, just as likely mean the other components are also as cheap. It isn't just the scaler that decides what is or isn't a good TV, so you can't compensate for the other cheaper components in the TV by buying an expensive bit of equipment elsewhere that has what maybe perceive to be a better upscaler. There is a lot more going on in a TV than just upscaling.

I think what is going on here are people are trying to convince themselves they can get away with the cheapest of LCD TVs, which lets face it are pretty expensive as one of bits of kit go, they then justify spending £300 on a DVD Recorder with HDMI as that will magically undo the cheapness of the TV plus give them two bits of kit for the price of one. :rolleyes:

Regards

Phil
 
Hi
I think what is going on here are people are trying to convince themselves they can get away with the cheapest of LCD TVs, which lets face it are pretty expensive as one of bits of kit go, they then justify spending £300 on a DVD Recorder with HDMI as that will magically undo the cheapness of the TV plus give them two bits of kit for the price of one. :rolleyes:

Regards

Phil

Well Phil....let me tell you what is exactly going on here and your thinking is quite wrong...as i got an hannspee 37" and a panny dvd and yes it has made a difference upscaling:rolleyes: if you look at the pictures i.ve recently posted in the Hannspree 37" thread you can plainly see the difference and that is composite only...so add the 2 prices together and it would make the price up of a known branded 32" but i got a bigger screen + a quality dvd player and considering i've spent an over an hour today looking @ a samsung LCD and there is not a blind bit of difference in PQ between the 2 although now my PQ is even better with the addition of the panny i can tell you that my purchase is well justified.:D
 
Well Phil....let me tell you what is exactly going on here and your thinking is quite wrong...as i got an hannspee 37" and a panny dvd and yes it has made a difference upscaling:rolleyes: if you look at the pictures i.ve recently posted in the Hannspree 37" thread you can plainly see the difference and that is composite only...so add the 2 prices together and it would make the price up of a known branded 32" but i got a bigger screen + a quality dvd player and considering i've spent an over an hour today looking @ a samsung LCD and there is not a blind bit of difference in PQ between the 2 although now my PQ is even better with the addition of the panny i can tell you that my purchase is well justified.:D

all this really proves is that hannspree did that thing manufacturers sometimes do by accident and release a good product too cheap.....and boy does someone get a kicking in the next managment meeting...lol

one thing that people should consider is that why is it suddenly a lot of TV's are suffering from poor quality analogue inputs?.....my Infocus Projectors are brilliant, the component input especially, often gives a better image than the digital input does (M1, takes HDMI, DVI, VGA etc), the s-video is also damn good.......likewise my parents 28in Panasonic TV and my relatively cheap 28in Philips thats now in the back room......also my next door neighbours older LCD TV, has a very good scart input and it wasnt that expensive for the time it was bought......my sister has an older LCD as well she bought second hand, very good analogue inputs......why suddenly are a lot of people saying how their analogue inputs are producing a poor image?......could it be to make sure people are convinced digital is better?....whilst i'd hate to think any company would indulge in such behaviour.....the timing is a little interesting....

anyhow, conspiracy theories aside :D simple truth remains, buy equipment for what YOU need it to do........if your current display has good analogue inputs, dont stress over needing a HDMI upscaling doo-daa......if your displays analogue inputs are a little ropey, then consider a HDMI upscaling doo-daa....
 

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