Help please with choosing a good sub for movies SVS PB 3000 or REL S510

ryobitunes

Novice Member
Good day everyone

Ok I’m new this forum but I’m in need of help from those with experience

I want to go with a true as possible cinema feel to my sound system

I’ve currently got a full set up from Q Acoustics 1000 series which is years old

I’m about to purchase some speakers and this is what I’ve got planned

KEF R Series:
R7 front speakers
R3 bookshelf speakers
R2c centre speaker
REL S510 subwoofer or SVS PB 3000
Denon AVC X3700H Amp

First of all which sub would you get out of my two choices?
I can get hold of the Rel S510 for £1300
SVS PB3000 for £1550

Secondly would this set up do me well for what I’m after?

And lastly is the amp powerful enough for what I’m after

I’ll be looking to add atmos speakers later on but not main concern at the moment

This is mostly for films and gaming however with the occasional music

Any advice or opinions to help me do that right thing is highly appreciated

Any alternatives you think are better please let me know and reasons

Want to buy most of this in the next few days so would like some help before the sales guys have hold of me :)

Thank you in advance
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
You didn´t tell anything of your room volume and typical listening level. Is this system going in dedicated room or more of living room cinema? Apartment (neighbours) or detached house?

Another alternative to R-serie if your usage is purely movies would be Arendal 1723 S or full size 1723. Few members have heard both and felt Arendal is slightly better with movies, but people always have different tastes too. The Kefs are definitely going to sound amazing after the QA 1000s. For music it could be other way around where Kefs really shine, but you looking HT/gaming system mostly so this would be superb option:


For the sub from those two it`s fairly easy choice, PB3000 is in own class but doesn´t have luxury finish REL offers. You also want to consider is adding 2nd PB3000 possible in future? If too expensive then you would be better to look one model down PB/PC2000 Pro, however in that case we would swap the brand for you cause similar competitor to 2000 serie Monoprice 12 THX offers amazing bang for buck in UK and you would get two subs for the price of PB3K.



Edit. The sale for Monoprice has ended, but wait to see easter sales in few week time and the prices should be below 700£ for each! SVS PB2000 Pro costs 1169£ so huge saving! :)
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
I want to go with a true as possible cinema feel to my sound system
If this is "what you are after" then IMO that's not a good allocation of a fairly large budget.

Personally, I would want a larger centre speaker as it's doing most of the work and at least a pair of subs, even if they are smaller ones.
 

ryobitunes

Novice Member
You didn´t tell anything of your room volume and typical listening level. Is this system going in dedicated room or more of living room cinema? Apartment (neighbours) or detached house?

Another alternative to R-serie if your usage is purely movies would be Arendal 1723 S or full size 1723. Few members have heard both and felt Arendal is slightly better with movies, but people always have different tastes too. The Kefs are definitely going to sound amazing after the QA 1000s. For music it could be other way around where Kefs really shine, but you looking HT/gaming system mostly so this would be superb option:


For the sub from those two it`s fairly easy choice, PB3000 is in own class but doesn´t have luxury finish REL offers. You also want to consider is adding 2nd PB3000 possible in future? If too expensive then you would be better to look one model down PB/PC2000 Pro, however in that case we would swap the brand for you cause similar competitor to 2000 serie Monoprice 12 THX offers amazing bang for buck in UK and you would get two subs for the price of PB3K.



Edit. The sale for Monoprice has ended, but wait to see easter sales in few week time and the prices should be below 700£ for each! SVS PB2000 Pro costs 1169£ so huge saving! :)
Hi will reply when I got more time with measurements etc
It’s for a front room in a detached house
And for films we tend to play it fairly loud for the feel
But depends on what we’re watching

Sorry for short response but will get back later :)
 

ryobitunes

Novice Member
If this is "what you are after" then IMO that's not a good allocation of a fairly large budget.

Personally, I would want a larger centre speaker as it's doing most of the work and at least a pair of subs, even if they are smaller ones.
What suggestions for that budget
And if I got kef r series for all but centre speaker
What centre speaker would work well with the r series
Possibly 2 svspb2000 pro would work for me or 2 Rel tx9’s
What you think?
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
How large is the room and how far will you be sitting from the front speakers?
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
You could look at poweramp(s) later if you feel the need. Either a three channel for front three or one or more boxes. You're looking at £1100 for cheapest 7ch amp that would be a worthwhile upgrade over the Denon.

Svs are pretty expensive now they aren't value for money subs they used to be.
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
The monoprice 13" is £1600 and outclasses the pb3000 and similar to the pb4000.
 

ryobitunes

Novice Member
How large is the room and how far will you be sitting from the front speakers?
The room is over 5 metres by over 4 metres
The rear speakers and two front speakers are currently in each corner of the room and centre speaker is just under 4 metres from sat position

However I’ll be moving next year and will likely be bigger as looking to upgrade
 

ryobitunes

Novice Member
You could look at poweramp(s) later if you feel the need. Either a three channel for front three or one or more boxes. You're looking at £1100 for cheapest 7ch amp that would be a worthwhile upgrade over the Denon.

Svs are pretty expensive now they aren't value for money subs they used to be.
What amps would you recommend over the denon AVC X3700H ?
Thanks
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
What amps would you recommend over the denon AVC X3700H ?
Thanks

I'm not into avr, I've gone down AV pre Poweramp route.

The 3700 will a decent AV pre in the future as it's the cheapest Denon with pre outs, also offers full pre amp mode so provides cleaner pre out signal. That's if you get a 9+ channel poweramp and go down that route
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
What suggestions for that budget
And if I got kef r series for all but centre speaker
What centre speaker would work well with the r series
Possibly 2 svspb2000 pro would work for me or 2 Rel tx9’s
What you think?
In a perfect world, the front soundstage of a home cinema would use three identical speakers, ideally all positioned at ear height and orientated vertically for wide dispersion. That's usually only possible in a dedicated cinema room with an acoustically transparent screen so not an option for most people.

Given typical real world constraints, the best that most can hope for is to use speakers from the same range with the same size and number of drivers. This should give the same sonic character and a very similar dynamic output capability.

Unless you're prioritising 2-channel music capability, personally I would want the centre speaker to always be able to keep up with the L/R mains sonically. For movies, if there's to be a dominant speaker at the front, you want it to be the centre as that's where most of the sound action comes from. Plus in practice it usually has slightly louder peaks despite the Dolby standards say they can be the same.

Unfortunately KEF don't currently make a larger centre for the R series that matches the R7's larger 6.5" woofers. So a better pairing in the KEF R-series would be the R2C with the R5 as they both use the same size (5.25") bass drivers. So you could go 5.1 with R5/R2C/R3.

If you're prepared to look away from KEF, there are some other options from other brands that offer larger centres and matching mains e.g. B&W, Focal, Arendal, Monitor Audio, XTZ. At this price point with a black gloss finish the B&W HTM71 S2 and matching 703 S2 towers are worth looking at - they would certainly be on my shortlist as would the Arendal 1723S range as they all use 6.5" woofers.

I should confess to being somewhat prejudiced about speaker size as I much prefer the sound of larger ones. Ultimately, speakers are a very personal thing and what sounds good to someone else may sound so good to you. The room they're being used in also has a massive impact as will the EQ system being employed. And don't presume more expensive speakers will sound better to you as in many cases they won't. There's a huge profit margin on speakers from the established brands and you're not always paying a premium for extra performance.

Re. subs, I would definitely favour a pair of PB-2000 Pros over a single PB-3000 as two subs are so much better than one. And I say that as a (very happy) owner of two PB-3000s that I use in a dedicated cinema room.

I don't know how you arrived at the KEF R-series but they are quality, HiFi grade speakers so if music is also a priority I suggest you consider a pair of sealed subs as many prefer them with music (inc. me). Your room is <2,000Ft3 in volume and a pair of quality sealed subs (e.g. SVS SB-2000 Pros, Arendal 1961 1S) would easily have enough output to support cinema reference level listening. They also take up much less space than the ported options and can also be bought in black gloss finish if that's important to you.

These are just my own opinions of course and others may have different view.
 
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Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
And if I got kef r series for all but centre speaker
What centre speaker would work well with the r series
Possibly 2 svspb2000 pro would work for me or 2 Rel tx9’s
What you think?

The R2c will work fine with the R7s if you want the towers for the looks, in ideal world it would have larger drivers like they did last gen. Kef dropped the larger R600c and built the smaller one R2c with heftier drivers/magnets, power handling raised to 200w. Erin measured and listened R2c at 95db from 4meters full range, but when you cross it at 80-100hz it will play even louder! Keep in mind most people use it with R7 and R11 towers so should be perfectly fine for living room cinema. We have lots of R2c & R200c owners with bigger R serie towers also and i`m yet to hear anyone complaining, usually it has been opposite how good it sounds. R2c has 2x 5,25" bass drivers and also 5" MF UniQ driver and cabinet volume wise it`s not the smallest either. If you have chance to listen them then start there!

X4700H adds Auro 3D, otherwise X3700H is the usual sweet spot when budget is tight and looking to get best bang for buck. Both have preouts so adding poweramp is easy in future if required. Don´t buy anything individually, try to make receiver + speaker (5.0) bundle deal to get best discount! There is ton of dealers to ask from.

You mentioned fairly loud for the feel so if you find the black oak finish being suitable then i would choose ported sub model without doubt. You also said room size 5x4m, mostly movies and gaming, also moving next year to bigger house so the small SB subs might feel bit lost there and if you looking the most TR/impact then stick with ported models! Detached house without neighbours means you can blast quite loud indeed so don´t make the mistake going something small or you regret it later.

Forget the RELs right away as you aren`t building some hifi music system there! Monoprice 12 THX is your best if you are considering the PB2000 Pro type/priced product. As i said the price will drop soon below 700£ so you get the same performance as from SVS for roughly 1400£/pair as you would pay ~2104£ for SVS pair w/ discount. If you aren´t familiar with Monoprice, read these:

 

DrH

Well-known Member
I have the Kef R3 with R2C.
All of the R series use the same midrange and tweeter speakers.
It is just the set up of the bass drivers that differs.
Even the R3 has a separate bass driver which Is crossed over from mid range,
I believe that they are all 3 way speakers. The R2C follows this set up with two 5.25 inch bass drivers.
I have not found the R2C lacking to be honest.

As much as the R7 look great do you need them over R3’s. If you are not using them for music playing full range them if it were my money I would have R3 upfront and put the extra money into a second sub? £1200 difference in price for a few Hz which a good sub would do better
 

ryobitunes

Novice Member
The R2c will work fine with the R7s if you want the towers for the looks, in ideal world it would have larger drivers like they did last gen. Kef dropped the larger R600c and built the smaller one R2c with heftier drivers/magnets, power handling raised to 200w. Erin measured and listened R2c at 95db from 4meters full range, but when you cross it at 80-100hz it will play even louder! Keep in mind most people use it with R7 and R11 towers so should be perfectly fine for living room cinema. We have lots of R2c & R200c owners with bigger R serie towers also and i`m yet to hear anyone complaining, usually it has been opposite how good it sounds. R2c has 2x 5,25" bass drivers and also 5" MF UniQ driver and cabinet volume wise it`s not the smallest either. If you have chance to listen them then start there!

X4700H adds Auro 3D, otherwise X3700H is the usual sweet spot when budget is tight and looking to get best bang for buck. Both have preouts so adding poweramp is easy in future if required. Don´t buy anything individually, try to make receiver + speaker (5.0) bundle deal to get best discount! There is ton of dealers to ask from.

You mentioned fairly loud for the feel so if you find the black oak finish being suitable then i would choose ported sub model without doubt. You also said room size 5x4m, mostly movies and gaming, also moving next year to bigger house so the small SB subs might feel bit lost there and if you looking the most TR/impact then stick with ported models! Detached house without neighbours means you can blast quite loud indeed so don´t make the mistake going something small or you regret it later.

Forget the RELs right away as you aren`t building some hifi music system there! Monoprice 12 THX is your best if you are considering the PB2000 Pro type/priced product. As i said the price will drop soon below 700£ so you get the same performance as from SVS for roughly 1400£/pair as you would pay ~2104£ for SVS pair w/ discount. If you aren´t familiar with Monoprice, read these:

That’s all good information
The subs sound really nice and fit for the job
Not sure if I’m bad for looking but do they sell these at retailers or only on there site?
Thank you for all you input
 

ryobitunes

Novice Member
I have the Kef R3 with R2C.
All of the R series use the same midrange and tweeter speakers.
It is just the set up of the bass drivers that differs.
Even the R3 has a separate bass driver which Is crossed over from mid range,
I believe that they are all 3 way speakers. The R2C follows this set up with two 5.25 inch bass drivers.
I have not found the R2C lacking to be honest.

As much as the R7 look great do you need them over R3’s. If you are not using them for music playing full range them if it were my money I would have R3 upfront and put the extra money into a second sub? £1200 difference in price for a few Hz which a good sub would do better
Budget isn’t an issue
I feel I’m now pointed to go for two subs idea
Monolith or svs set
Thank you
 

ryobitunes

Novice Member
After reading all the advice I’ve decided I’ll definitely go with two subs
One for each side of the room
More pointed to ported at the moment for movies and games
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
get isn’t an issue
I feel I’m now pointed to go for two subs idea
Monolith or svs set
Thank you

I went from svs sbu13 (old version of sv4000) to dual monoprice monolith 13" (actually more like 15") for movies a big improvement even with one monoprice.

Considering the sb4000 is £2000 and monoprice is £1600....
 
I went from svs sbu13 (old version of sv4000) to dual monoprice monolith 13" (actually more like 15") for movies a big improvement even with one monoprice.

Considering the sb4000 is £2000 and monoprice is £1600....
You'd see a better improvement with a real prepro and a minidsp😉
 

ryobitunes

Novice Member
Going to hear the kef r series play today and will hear the rel s510 today seeing as it was arranged a week ago and it’s brand new with £1000 knocked off the price
But already have decided I’ll want ported sub now and a pair also which they would t be able to offer me two for £1000 off each as it’s there last one
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
Going to hear the kef r series play today and will hear the rel s510 today seeing as it was arranged a week ago and it’s brand new with £1000 knocked off the price
But already have decided I’ll want ported sub now and a pair also which they would t be able to offer me two for £1000 off each as it’s there last one

Make sure you take a towel with you, and as you hold the rel bath handles groan as you sit down

The rel also looks like a bobsled with the angled feet and bath handles.

The rel is still overpriced with £1000 off. 10" with 500w.and passive rad
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
Going to hear the kef r series play today
There's an excellent test a dealer once did for me to help me find the best matching speakers for the front soundstage.

Ask him to hook up both the R2C and a (single) main speaker you're now considering to a stereo amp and play some dialogue rich content. Place the speakers very close together and then get him to fade the balance from left to right so each speaker turns off and on in turn. Do this repeatedly back and forth. Ideally you won't notice any difference in sound. In movies dialogue frequently pans from side to side as characters move across the screen and trust me you want this transition to be as seamless as possible across the LCR speakers.

I would expect the R5 to match it the best tonally, closely followed by the R3. The two both use 5.25" woofers like the R3 which are internally crossed to the mids at 400Hz which means all dialogue is going through them. If the port on the R5/R3 is sealable then ask him to seal it to get an even closer match as the R2C is a sealed speaker.

Have fun!
 
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ryobitunes

Novice Member
Make sure you take a towel with you, and as you hold the rel bath handles groan as you sit down

The rel also looks like a bobsled with the angled feet and bath handles.

The rel is still overpriced with £1000 off. 10" with 500w.and passive rad
If I’m honest I loved the kef r series sounds
A massive improvement to the old Q acoustics 1000 series I bought many years ago

But I wasn’t overly impressed with the Rel on the movies the sales guy used. He tried his best to sell it to me but I wasn’t convinced

I do now however have the Kef’s on order and hope to received in the next two weeks.

Just the amp and subs to order now
I did ask if I could hear his best ported sub to compare to and he had some reason he couldn’t do it which again sort of suggested to me that ls because he knows id prefer the ported model
 

ryobitunes

Novice Member
There's an excellent test a dealer once did for me to help me find the best matching speakers for the front soundstage.

Ask him to hook up both the R2C and a (single) main speaker you're now considering to a stereo amp and play some dialogue rich content. Place the speakers very close together and then get him to fade the balance from left to right so each speaker turns off and on in turn. Do this repeatedly back and forth. Ideally you won't notice any difference in sound. In movies dialogue frequently pans from side to side as characters move across the screen and trust me you want this transition to be as seamless as possible across the LCR speakers.

I would expect the R5 to match it the best tonally, closely followed by the R3. The two both use 5.25" woofers like the R3 which are internally crossed to the mids at 400Hz which means all dialogue is going through them. If the port on the R5/R3 is sealable then ask him to seal it to get an even closer match as the R2C is a sealed speaker.

Have fun!
I’m a little gutted I hadn’t seen this suggestion before I went
Well I got two weeks till it arrives so I have time to visit again so I may be tempted :)

Thank you
 

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