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Help!, Phillps TV and NTSC colour problem, service menu fixable?

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by one_jedi, Jul 5, 2003.

  1. one_jedi

    one_jedi
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    Hi
    I have a 24" Phillips 6006 TV, Got it over year ago, last Feb or March. Anyway I know there have been a lot of issues with this TV (in the 28" and 32" versions as well, all basically the same) mainly with the geometry but now I have another problem, well I say now but it has been since I first got it and I know others have had a similar problem. Basically when watching an NTSC DVD and outputing NTSC and the TV switching to NTSC the colour goes really really bright and blooming. When on NTSC it's as if the colour has been turned upa bout 15-25 notches on the menu, yet it still says the same number. This is very annoying as I never seem to be able to get the coluor and all the other setting right in the menu, and it's just a general pain trying to sort it out everytime I want to what an NTSC DVD

    I was just wondering if this is fixable in the service menu?. I've seen some other posts about what appears to be in the service menu and there doesn't seem to be an option anywhere where I could turn the colour down for NTSC or PAL. So does anyone know if this is fixable and if so what do I have to change and do? Why does it do this anyway!

    Fortuanetly I have a DVD player that does PAL 60 (the new Pioneer 360) so I just leave it on PAL and don't have to worry about it (plus PAL 60 apparently being slightly better than NTSC because of the colour system, not that I can see it!) but it would be nice if I could get NTSC sorted out so I thought I'd ask!.

    Also if anyone can give me some details or a link to details about the service menu's on these TV's and what all the settings do then that would be great, althougth this is realy only for my own interest and i'm only really want to see if the NTSC colour problem can be sorted out.

    Thanks for all the help.
     
  2. one_jedi

    one_jedi
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    Anyone?!!
     
  3. tom-m

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    This happens on my 6006 and my hitachi 25" 4:3 tv. I'm not too sure wether you can adjust anything in the service menu (I don't recall seeing anything) to change this. Like your dvd player, mine outputs pal 60, so I've never bothered using the NTSC setting.

    Sorry I can't help you any further.
     
  4. one_jedi

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    Cool, thanks for the reply! 'm also pretty sure that there is no where to adjust this but I don't know much about it

    Anyone else know anything about this at all?

    Thanks for the help!
     
  5. MarkB4506

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    one_jedi, it sounds like you're describing 'red push'.

    TV manufacturers, when they're designing the NTSC colour decoder often totally disregard the specifications of the NTSC system and engineer in a bias toward the red channel, the idea being that this produces a 'warm' tone in the picture (!)

    What actually happens is, the picture looks oversaturated with skin tones in particular looking flushed and unnatural.
    It also affects yellow - the excess red component will make yellows look orange.

    I have a Sony 4:3 which has so much red push, it physically cannot produce yellow on NTSC.

    There's an interesting test pattern on the Avia disc which allows you to assess red push. After colour and hue/tint are set correctly the three colour components should register at 0% on this pattern, meaning they're at equal and correct level. Anything above means a push in that channel - blue push I've never seen, green push does sometimes happen, but isn't half as annoying as red push.
    My Toshiba has around 20-25% red push.

    You're right, this is a 'design feature' and not open to change. The only thing you can do is reduce the colour level down, while leaving tint at it's previous level, until red oversaturation is, Avia recommend I believe, no more than 15%.
    The down side of this is, green and blue then desaturate.

    The problem varies in consistency between manufacturers and even within a manufacturer's range. All contributing to the 'never twice the same colour' reputation. A real annoyance because the NTSC colourspace is fine, and as good as any other system, if it's done properly.

    A 60Hz RGB signal will bypass the NTSC decoder in the TV obviously and give you a second chance 'though. Might be worth experimenting with this?!
     
  6. nathan_silly

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    Mark seems like you know what you're talking about.. my Tosh RP has Red Push, even with Component.. is there a way to sort it out? (I know adjusting RCUT & DRV does not fix red push)
     
  7. MarkB4506

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    nathan_silly - thanks!
    Unfortunately it's rarely (if ever) possible to change colour decoding in consumer TVs.

    The effect is present on composite and S-video, since they require conversion to RGB via the colour decoder. If the TV converts component to one of these - typically S-video, for 'digital processing' you will see it on component too. If it converts YPbPr directly to RGB (as it would in an ideal world) you will not.

    The only workaround is - to reduce colur saturation. This reduces all 3 channels simultaneously, to a point where you reach an acceptable compromise between red oversaturation and green/blue undersaturation - and the latter is less objectionable than the former.That's what I do - using component video from the DVD player.

    Bypassing the decoder with a 60Hz RGB signal is another possibility. Although you then get into quality questions about the RGB encoder in the player - in 'average' players, it's worth about 50 pence (aside from non-standard colour, the RGB decoder in TVs is typically much better), add on the TV's handling of RGB, and it goes on....
     
  8. one_jedi

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    Wow, thanks for the reply, always good to hear from somone who knows what there talking about. Didn't think it would be fixable. Fortunately my Pioneer 360 does Pal 60 which solves the problem so I don't have to worry about NTSC.

    In fact I noticed another problem with my NTSC the other week I forgot about, wehn watching somethign that fills the screen there are major geometery problems at the top, and I mean majer, thngs curve out wards badly, had a fiddle in the servie menu but didn't really get anywhere!

    Anyway I dont have to worry about any of that, thank goodness for Pal 60!
     
  9. SpliffCartel

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    Hi one_jedi

    I have the same problem with a 28" 6006 and a Pioneer 350 drive. Some TVs allow you to have different settings (colour, brightness etc) for PAL and NTSC, but the Phillips for some reason doesn't. Still, I find that PAL 60 is just as good. I was wondering if you have ever experienced horizontal "bands" of brightness on certain scenes of NTSC dvds. It only happens on RGB and I read about it somewhere on here before, but I can't remember whether it was a TV problem or my dvd player.

    Edit: I found the thread I was thinking of- it was on dvdforums not here, turns out my TV is at fault, so won't be replacing it any time soon. http://www.thedvdforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=172255
     

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