Help needed with taking on my first real apprentice

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Cocksure, May 9, 2016.

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  1. Cocksure

    Cocksure
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    I have already posted about offering a lad a fake apprenticeship, but partly due to the posts their i have decided to offer him a real job, so i have a few questions which i'm hoping someone can help with.

    Easy question first, Do i need to pay him when he is at tech one day a week? I assume so, but it would be nice to know

    Now the hard one :laugh:
    he is being taken on as an apprenticed welder, amazingly i don't need to be a welder or to arrange for him to work under a qualified one (he can be the only welder on site), my only requirement is to provide regular welding work for him to do. Madness :eek: but their you go. Anyhow if i am going to do this i am going to do it right.

    I can only provide him with so much welding work (1 day a week on average) plus his 1 day at college, leaves me with 3 days empty. So what i plan to do is setup a new business for him to run (i'll train him in that at the same time) where i plan to get him to make things for other people or things that i can sell (i'll give him 10% of any profit on any work he generates in his first year on top of his hourly rate) with the ultimate aim of him making things like this for me in two to three years (or however long it takes)

    [​IMG]

    obviously he will start on simple things like smaller basic versions and garden gates, but this is what i want him to be practicing to learn to make. Having no start up costs, wage to worry about or business premises to pay for (i'll cover all of that), he should be able to make (in time) a very nice business.

    Question is how do i sell this ideal to the tech as they need to sign off on it?
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2016
  2. Sniper Ash6

    Sniper Ash6
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    This doesn't add up to me. You get cheap labour for your odd welding jobs, leave him trying to run a business (under your guidance you say) where he does all the work and he gets 10% while you sit back and get 90%? Then, making it worse, you're saying that's only for the first year so he'll be less motivated as while he may be able to make better things which sell for more there's no benefit for him doing so. On the note of making better things, is there even much need of it? He's going to want to know what he's getting himself in for and that it won't just fizzle out in a few weeks

    Looks as though you need to pay for him being at college though: Become an apprentice - GOV.UK
     
  3. rousetafarian

    rousetafarian
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    10% of any net margin is paltry......50/50 is fair, he is doing the work whilst you pay him an hourly(minimum wage) apprentice ŵrate....?

    He is potentially going to be a production line for you to sell his wares and you'll take 90% of the net margin.......give me a break. Aren't there any chimneys that need sweeping whilst he's at it?
     
  4. Cocksure

    Cocksure
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    That's what the one person at the college said. He gets 10% on the 1St year because I have to recover the setup costs and basically have to run the business for him whilst he learns.

    He gets 25% in the 2nd year and 50% in the 3rd. As to cheap labour I have that whatever I do with him, this way he learns to build a business, make money and do welding work full time.

    Can't see how it's such a bad deal for him.

    The other option is I start a new business, hire a welder and have him used him for cheap labour for 3 years as most apprenticeships work. Don't see any gain for the lad doing the normal route
     
  5. Cocksure

    Cocksure
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    How much work do you think he will bring in on the 1St year???

    If he wants to work without being paid an hourly wage then I'll give him 50% NOW.

    Can't have an hourly wage and expect a large percentage in your 1St year. I swear you seem to live in your own world at times.

    The fact that he's an apprentice is irrelevant to this, a full qualified person would jump at such an offer. Zero risk, guaranteed wage with a share of the profits. How many jobs do you know that can match that
     
  6. phillyd1981

    phillyd1981
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    Plus his hourly wage! he's trying to give a young lad a leg up here which Is more then what most would do.
     
  7. phillyd1981

    phillyd1981
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    @Lizard Basically your trying to get the lad through his 3 years "experience" and give him something to do whilst he is under you.
     
  8. Cocksure

    Cocksure
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    Basically yes, he needs a job and I don't have enough work for him otherwise. This way he has plenty of work, can continue to work for me when he is qualified or has the skills to go off and set up on his own.

    I have no interest in a quick buck off him, I want him working for me for the next 20 years, this way he has an incentive to do so. That's the aim anyhow
     
  9. rousetafarian

    rousetafarian
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    I get that....£3.30 minimum wage is pitiful though (not the OP's fault obviously)

    I get the principle behind Lizard's good intentions but 10% seems a bit low.
     
  10. Cocksure

    Cocksure
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    He's will be on 5.30 for his 1st year which is the minimum wage yes, as I expected to lose money from having him. Then I will put him above the minimum wage (around 7.50 would be my estimate) and increase his percentage. In the 3rd year he will be looking at around 10 an hour with his 50% on top.

    I'm not going to keep him on a low wage, and even if I did he would be off in a flash once qualified so would be bad long term planning if I did.

    My plan is to grow a large new business and to do that he needs to be well paid. That way he gains and yes I gain to. I'm planning for 5 to 10 years here.

    You don't keep people by paying people peanuts and taking advantage of them.
     
  11. jonnyc

    jonnyc
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    What is he mig, tig or stick? Does he do it all? Id be very surprised if he did it all unless he's going into sheet metal work which is what the deer is above. What course is he doing at college? Normally for a skill trade they are sponsored by a employer?
     
  12. rousetafarian

    rousetafarian
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    I'm sorry and apologise if the OP thinks I was having a pop at his plan needlessly. That wasn't the case and I applaud your intentions tbh
     
  13. phillyd1981

    phillyd1981
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    But I don't get the feeling that you understand that the lad in question has had no other offer despite his efforts in looking and Lizard is willing to put his neck out here with a small chance of seeing any return the lad can bugger off at any time.
    Also Lizard is going to require insurance for his new employee and have to pay him for the time spent in collage aswell as holiday pay.
     
  14. Cocksure

    Cocksure
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    Yes he does all 3, he's also helped to do body work repairs in his dad's garage as well as work on the engine's.

    Course is welding and fabrication

    I don't expect him to have the skills to make something like in the picture yet, but I'm quite happy to let him spend a few months just playing around so to speak to he has figured it out.

    Having seen his cv I can see why a lot of firms wouldn't be interested in him. Bar pe his gcse's are awful, basically all f's as I expected.

    I'm purely interested in his welding/fabrication skills and whether he is dedicated. His boxing coach convinced me that he is as there offering him a training coach job (plus the guy was ex army)

    I can work with him to get his maths and English up to were it needs to be
     
  15. jonnyc

    jonnyc
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    Welding and fabrication level 3?
     
  16. rousetafarian

    rousetafarian
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    I wasn't privy to the full back story to the lad's searches etc....which casts a whole new light on it. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
     
  17. Cocksure

    Cocksure
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    He will be finishing his level 2 this year and needs a job to be able to do the next level so I assume that yes it's level 3 he will be on.

    I'm waiting on the details from the college
     
  18. jonnyc

    jonnyc
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    So he got all f's in his gcse's he is embarking on a level 3 course at some time in the future all ok im guessing with a functional skills level 1. You was going to give him a fake 3 year contract at your units(where his dad has a garage/body shop ideal for a welding fabrication apprentice surely). Then you was giving him a day a week or a week a month work to now creating him a whole business just don't add up really. Why did you even work as a traffic warden?
     
  19. balidey

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    Good on you for giving him the opportunity.
    I can't comment on the business side of things, so I won't.
    All I can add is that I have had a keen interest in items like you posted above and will say that the actual practical welding of something like that is a very small part of the whole. It takes a keen eye and a lot of artistic ability to be able to conceive and then create something like that.
    It's very much like photography. I'm sure we all know someone who has all the gear and 'is really into photography'. But I know 3 professional photographers and all of them have something that you will struggle to train someone to achieve. And welding sculptures is very much like that.
    But, all that aside, good luck with the venture.
     
  20. Cocksure

    Cocksure
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    If he can't do it then fair enough, making or not making sculptures isn't a deal breaker. It's an area with a lot of money in it, but there are other ways to.

    I will need to see what areas he shines in and take it from there
     
  21. johntheexpat

    johntheexpat
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    Mark me down for one of those stags. It'll look great in the garden.
     
  22. Cocksure

    Cocksure
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    Not some time, but this September is when he's course starts.

    I've worked as a cleaner to, what's your point?

    I was going to fake an apprenticeship for the reasons already given on a different thread. People on their convinced me that wasn't helping so I thought about doing it correctly.

    To do that it needs to make business sense which this does. I have small industrial units already (box 1 ticked) I will be paying him a wage anyhow (box 2) and I will need to buy equipment anyhow (box 3) so I lose nothing by setting such a business up.

    Plus have you thought how much he can under cut others with NO overheads???

    I can afford him to run at a loss for a year or two, that gives him a serious advantage. My cost are the same either way

    Edit
    I can't comment as to why his dad wasn't an option, but as his dad just works by himself then I would imagine it's because his dad couldn't give him enough work. If he was training as a mechanic then yes, as a welder not enough work to convince the college
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2016
  23. Jameskatie

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    First year only has to be £3 odd an hour for apprentice and there is a £1500 grant available, after 13weeks, yes you pay while at college, 30 hours a week works out at £100 per week with no tax or NI
     
  24. jonnyc

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    Fair enough good luck with all yours and his endeavours.
     
  25. Cocksure

    Cocksure
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    Thanks for the information :)

    Alas but also good is that he will be 18 so will need to be on 5.30, I will also require him to do 8 hour days so it will be closer to 39 hours a week.

    Can't see the point of taking someone on who only does 30 hours a week, if I'm investing in him then I expect him to invest in return.

    Useful to know about the government grant, it's a tiny amount, but useful just the same
     
  26. Jameskatie

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    £3.30 for the first year at 18
     
  27. phillyd1981

    phillyd1981
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  28. Cocksure

    Cocksure
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    Ah well, I've already promised him 5.30, 3.30 is a too low a wage anyhow. The lad would feel taken advantage of at the wage
     
  29. Cocksure

    Cocksure
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    Not yet, that's my next job. First job was to work out a fair wage and how I can make it work. Next was contacting the college to find out what he needs. Last stage is red tape.

    But I will take a look tomorrow so thanks for the link. :)
     
  30. Doug the D

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    IMO, @Lizard is doing a good thing here. He's asked for advice on this lad in his other thread, taken that advice on board, and altered his plans. He's then created this new thread to tell others that he's changed his initial 'fake' apprenticeship into a real one, that pays real money.

    This plan is still a loose one I think, but at least @Lizard is doing something for this lad. From the apprentice's point of view, what's not to like? He gets paid to learn his trade, with plenty of materials to practice on. He's going to learn how to run a business, and how to make some money. Not many apprenticeships offer the incentive of making money on your own work, on top of your wage.

    Good on you @Lizard, I hope your plan pans out, and look forward to updates in the future :thumbsup:

    If only you'd never been a traffic warden, I could almost like you :laugh::p
     
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