Help me understand my own setup - what is my weakest link.

Srg Kasto

Novice Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2013
Messages
29
Reaction score
1
Points
31
Age
42
Location
Långbro, Stockholms Län, Sweden
Hey!

Cutting through the chase, I want to upgrade my setup but I don't know where to start. This is my dilemma. I have inherited a setup by my father-in-law and I am somewhat content of how it performs. Especially in low volumes. But on higher volumes the music sounds, due to lack of words, messy. It sounds a bit cacophonic, it kind of stresses me out. Why is that?

I am as of now considering a stereo amp with a built in dac, like the NuForce DDA-100 or the Yamaha R-N500, because all of my sources are digital. But I am also considering new speakers, like the old Canton GLE 490 (this also gives you an idea of the price range I'm looking at).

This is the setup
Amp: Teac A-H500
Speakers: Yamaha NS-200
Dac: CA Dacmagic 100
Speaker wire: Supra Classic 4.0
Source: 95% Spotify from pc through optical cable. 5% TV. All of which are in stereo.

The only stuff I've invested on this setup so far are a dac and some speaker wires that I've DIY'ed to look, you know, cool.

So what is my weakest link? What should I swap out/upgrade to make the biggest leap of improvement on the sound?


Regards from Sweden
S.
 
Last edited:
Take a trial subscription to Qobus. An alternate to Spotify that streams 16/44 material which sounds better than the Spotify material. You might find that is enough to give you what you are looking for
 
Ok, so the setup is fine, but the source is the problem? Does that mean that if I would buy new equipment, the sound would still suffer from the same "messiness" when played louder than, like, chill level?

Qobuz isn't available in Sweden, but we have Wimp as the alternate lossless streaming service. I've tried it, however, I just couldn't stand the UI. Also, I've used Spotify every single day since 2008, so I've built quite a large library and routine. Leaving all that feels... well... maybe not impossible, but very hard at least.
 
I don't know.

Certainly Spotify streaming will be a limit to performance.

Try the lossless streaming service and you can judge for yourself if there is a big difference.
 
When you have problems at high volumes, there are 2 reasons:

1. Clipping. Your speakers are demanding more power than what your amp can deliver. Instead of being able to get peaked waves, the square off at the top cos there's no more juice. Its not just about loudness, but also complexity of materia. More instruments, more energy. Also by loud, how far do you crank the volume knob?

2. Speaker distortion. Your driver cones reach their breakup limit. They don't move smoothly and sound distorted.

Given your speakers are rated 300W, I would find the latter less likely.

The Teac may be a good little performer in its day, but capacitors do wear out in time. The amp might be losing steam.
 
How much money were you anticipating spending on an upgrade. Good or better speakers will always make a big difference, second an amp upgrade both to more quality and more power, third, though some will disagree, the source. In you case, are you using PAID Spotify, or free?


It is hard to find specs on an older amp like this, but the following link indicates that the Teac is 50w/ch to 8 ohms.

Teac Reference Series - Page 6

Any idea what the original price of this amp was?

I can find specs on the speakers, but again, nothing on the price -

Superfi - DISCONTINUED YAMAHA NS200 SPEAKERS

"In April 2000, What HiFi concluded that the NS200s were "Excellent, their mixture of power, resolution and control making them great all-rounders". Five gold stars followed."

Next, when you say LOUD, exactly how loud is loud. The volume dial is numbered, can you give us some idea of 'loud' relative to the numbers on the dial? Or half position on the dial, 1/3rd, 2/3rd?

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t161/SethKL/Teac A-H500/teaca-h500-a4.jpg

Have you tried other quality sources for this system - CD, etc...?

While Free Spotify sounds good to me, it is radio good, not HiFi good, not CD good, not BluRay good.

For what it is worth.

Steve/bluewizard
 
Clipping. Your speakers are demanding more power than what your amp can deliver. Instead of being able to get peaked waves, the square off at the top cos there's no more juice.
/.../
The Teac may be a good little performer in its day, but capacitors do wear out in time. The amp might be losing steam.

I always thought clipping is something that kind of cuts of the sounds, so it creates microseconds of empty spots. But that's not it, right? When clipping occurs, will detail diminish? Cuz it's the lack of detail in higher volume that I am experiencing.

What could be average longevity on capacitors when the amp has been mostly played on lower volumes? This amp has been running about 15 years. Could that be considered as in the end of it's lifetime?

How much money were you anticipating spending on an upgrade. Good or better speakers will always make a big difference, second an amp upgrade both to more quality and more power, third, though some will disagree, the source. In you case, are you using PAID Spotify, or free?
/.../
when you say LOUD, exactly how loud is loud.

I've been a paying subscriber since 2008. Spotify streams at 320kbit/s ogg vorbis. I'm aware of it not being cd-quality, but it's not far from it.

The amp is 50w at 8ohm I think, while the speakers are 6 ohm with a nominal watt of 100. I don't really know much about this. I only know that the higher the ohm-digit, the less it demands in terms of power. The whole "water through a pipe"-allegory.

I'm thinking that my NS-200 demands more power, and thus I could need a set of new speakers. At the same time, these are highly appreciated and when I had an Sony STR-DN1040 at home (an AVR I bought but returned) I felt that the speakers kind of lifted. It sounded, not necessarily better, but definitely less restrained. So my mind is stuck on whether to switch the amp or the speakers.

As of now, I'm looking at stuff around SEK 5000 (€500, $780), but that's because I think it's a good price level. I really don't know how amps/speakers on this level perform compared to what have. And I certainly don't want to gamble. :)
 
I think you need to pin down how much the source is contributing to your disappointment first. That's easy to do and may give you a clear answer.

Otherwise you are in danger of headless chicken syndrome!

If source (Spotify) is a core problem, changing equipment ain't going to solve the problem for you. If sound with lossless source is still poor, then start changing equipment.

I hope that seems logical to you.
 
I think you need to pin down how much the source is contributing to your disappointment first. That's easy to do and may give you a clear answer.

Otherwise you are in danger of headless chicken syndrome!

If source (Spotify) is a core problem, changing equipment ain't going to solve the problem for you. If sound with lossless source is still poor, then start changing equipment.

I hope that seems logical to you.

Yes it does! And yes you're right. I will definitely try it the coming days. I'm certain that the sound will improve slightly. I've actually tried it before and noticed an improvement. However, I din't reflect on how the sound behaved when played on higher volume, since I only had a 24h trial.

So say the change of source have an effect on sound quality, but that the lack of detail in higher volume is still there. What would be the next step in your opinion?
 
The real limit on an amp is not the power, as that is variable, but the voltage rails on the power output amplifiers. As an example, it the voltage output on your amp is ±20 volts, and you amplify the signal to 25 volts, then 5 volts are going to be chopped or clipped off the top. That's Clipping. When you demand more than the amp is capable of giving.

Now to power vs speaker impedance, if you push that 20v into an 8 ohms speaker, the power is 50 watts. If the same 20 volts is pushed into a 4 ohm speakers, then the apparent power is 100 watts. This gets confusing. The amp is a signal device, it delivers a signal of 20volts. That causes the speakers to consume current. The higher the current, the more power that is consumed.

At 4 ohms, the amp doesn't GIVE you more power, because it is limited to 20volts maximum, the low impedance speaker simply consumes more current and that in essence means it consumes more power.

Likely not only does the amp have a limited ability to supply voltage, but depending on the strength of the power supplies, it equally has a limited ability to supply current. Current saturation will give you a very different type of clipping that voltage saturation, but the effect is the same, the output is distorted.

Again, you say 'playing loud' but 'loud' is relative. A child or teen has a very different perception of loud than a parent or grand-parent. So, if you can give us some sense of the position of the volume control, then we can get some sense of whether you are commonly loud or insanely loud.

Traces of amp clipping come and go mostly unnoticed. However, when you get into sustained clipping, that is both a danger to the music, your ears, the amp, and more so the speakers.

Steve/bluewizard
 
Last edited:
First, let me get it out of the way, I am an advocate of lossless content. I'm miffed why Amazon etc don't just sell Flacs/Alacs.

Having said that, the degradation of lossey content can be overstated. I remember back in the day, when I had my Marantz CD7003, which can play mp3 at 128kpbs, you will struggle to tell the difference between that and 256kbps. What the onboard DAC do is fantastic.

320kbps is actually rather good. But you can tell the difference when you play a FLAC/CD version side by side.

Having said that, it shouldn't be distorred. Just less full and warm.

If the speakers sound better with the Sony AVR, then clearly clipping is the issue.

I should have made it clearer. the capaciptors don't wear out, they just degrade over time. That happens even if you don't use the amp. 15 years is a fair amont of time. Most ppl here seem to change power amps every 10 years. Some ppl replace the capacitors.

If you're thinking of uprading, maybe attack the amp first. A new set of speakers will sound better, but if your amp is dying, you can't get rid of the distortion and run the risk of damaging your new speakers.

Essentially you're looking at components in the £3-400 range. If thinking about HT, consider an AVR around the £500 mark. There are loads of good stuff out right now which are going cheap as the new models come out. They're just that good for stereo compared to 2 channel amps at that price range.
 
The real limit on an amp is not the power, as that is variable, but the voltage rails on the power output amplifiers. As an example, it the voltage output on your amp is ±20 volts, and you amplify the signal to 25 volts, then 5 volts are going to be chopped or clipped off the top. That's Clipping. When you demand more than the amp is capable of giving.
/.../
Again, you say 'playing loud' but 'loud' is relative. A child or teen has a very different perception of loud than a parent or grand-parent. So, if you can give us some sense of the position of the volume control, then we can get some sense of whether you are commonly loud or insanely loud.

Thank you for being so helpful! This really explains a lot to me.

I could've sworn I already stated my definition regarding what's "loud". I guess ctrl+z is a bit off, it disappeared. Anyhow, loud to me is when the dialer on the amp is between 45-37, while both Spotify and the pc is on max.

320kbps is actually rather good. But you can tell the difference when you play a FLAC/CD version side by side. /.../ Having said that, it shouldn't be distorred. Just less full and warm.
/.../
If the speakers sound better with the Sony AVR, then clearly clipping is the issue. /.../ If you're thinking of uprading, maybe attack the amp first. A new set of speakers will sound better, but if your amp is dying, you can't get rid of the distortion and run the risk of damaging your new speakers.

I just signed up for Wimp Hifi, and the difference in quality is remarkable. Both played on my amp, but also (and even more apparent) when connected to my Sony bluetooth cans. I mean, wow!

I know that avr's are both affordable and perform great for the price, but they are packed with features I would never use. Not to mention the fact that most avr's are so awful looking I would never put them on display. Subjectively speaking, of course. :)

So as I mentioned, I've signed up for Wimp hifi. Just as custodian suspected, the compressed audio from Spotify could be the source of the bad experience I'm having. After playing some music streaming lossless, I could definitely hear a more open and controlled sound. Acoustic albums like Fatoumata Diawaras "Fatou" had more distinct separation between her vocals and the guitar, and they felt, like, airy. Like it was a more space between her and the intrument. Electronic music like Valentin Stips "Angst" had deeper bass and more width. Also more space, as if it was in a bigger room. And hiphop like Danny Browns "25 bucks" was more crisp sounding. I did a-b tests on all of these comparing to the same track on spotify and I am very happy with the results!

But I didn't play on too high volumes. My 2 month old kid was eating, and my four year old was dancing around to the music so it was enough chaos right there for my wife to freak out. I can't conclude yet that lossless has solved my issue. I need some more time to try this out.

Any pointers to how I can tell, more concrete, if I am experiencing clipping?

(sorry for the lengthy post)
 
Last edited:
Use your PC to rip a Flac and a 128kbps mp3 of the same track back to back.

Sometimes the clipping can occur at the PC end. The output signal maxes out. Bluewizard can probably explain this better than I can. I use Mediamonkey and I can see the peaks, so I drop the player's volume slider down.

Once you eliminate the source from clipping. Play both tracks back to back and crank the vol up. Your max sould be at the 12'o'clock to 1 o'clock position.
 
Hey everyone!

So after two weeks of streaming lossless I can conclude the following:

1) Noticeably clearer and more punchy sound in the highs and mids.
2) Low frequencies are still a mess at higher volume. I'm almost certain that this is caused by clipping.


After forcing my father-in-law to dig deep into his memory to when he bought this amp (the TEAC A-H500), it turns out that it has been running since the mid 90's - about 20 years now.

I've consulted some repair shops, where one of them was pretty damn sure that the capacitors on these old amps seldom wear out because they are made of much higher quality compared to newer capacitors. I don't know if he is right and I still think it's a good idea to get the amp to a repair shop for diagnostics.

I have come to the final conclusion that I will invest in a brand new system. And I will go all digital. Time for some research!

And thank you all for your input!
 
There's some TEAC DAC/integrated amps on sale at the Classified which look quite nice.

Only thing is they use Class-D amplification which is an acquired taste. The -01 series uses the B&O ICEPower while the higher 501 uses Abletec.

TEAC may have tweaked them anyway, so its worth having a listen. The onboard Burr-Brown DAC looks to be a bit of a bargain. You can always add a power amp later if you don't like the sound.
 
There's some TEAC DAC/integrated amps on sale at the Classified which look quite nice.

Only thing is they use Class-D amplification which is an acquired taste. The -01 series uses the B&O ICEPower while the higher 501 uses Abletec.

TEAC may have tweaked them anyway, so its worth having a listen. The onboard Burr-Brown DAC looks to be a bit of a bargain. You can always add a power amp later if you don't like the sound.

Yes! I've had my eyes on the 501da for a while now. Right now I'm trying to get a clear picture of whether this amp is all it says it is, or if it's all make-up and fasade. The 30wpc@8ohm, the price and the review that it got at What Hifi is what holds me back. Other than that, it got everything I'm looking for!

I'm also considering the Rotel RA-12 (60wpc@8ohm), which here in Sweden is lower in price. I've failed to find any good comparison, or head-to-head, between those two so far. I'll just have to continue my search.
 
Take WHF with pinch of salt and read between the lines in general.

The price is a bit steep.

The RA-12 is nice. Only problem is the USB doesn't play FLAC or 24 bit. It does if fed from the optical input. Its Wolfsan, reputable. Also comes with Bluetooth dongle.

I try not to recommend Rotel too much as I think I am biased. But they do have many good amps at the entry level.
 
I do have a bit of a soft spot for Rotel, having had a HT separates with my Dad back in the day, and a stereo amp when i first started out in Hifi.

They make honest to goodness stuff at the entry to mid end. Very neutral and controlled.

Not so sure about their recent offerings. The onboard DAC though good, does not support FLAC which is a bi of a downer. The sound side of things are still ok. Not much else around the £500 mark.

My pick would be the RA-12.

At the mid end, around 1k, there is an abundance of choice. WHF's favourite, Roksan is one of them, though I find it a bit too bright.

Rotels do good honest to goodness pre and power amp combos, and is an option if you're looking at this price range.

Another left field option is the Anthem Intergrated 225wpc integegrated amp. Judging by musical abilities of their MRX receivers, you won't be disappointed. Although integrated, it houses a proper power amp stage with an oversized transforrmer etc.

Not so much on digital connectivity, but you can always add an outboard DAC like the Cambridge Audio DAC Magic, or at the higher end, Music Fidelity M1 etc. Again, slightly left field is the Peachtree DAC iTX. Supports all formats and direct USB connection from PC/Macs.

No display screen, so you have to guess what you're playing!
 
If you are looking for Amp, DAC, and Streaming, then consider this amp -

Superfi - YAMAHA RN500 NETWORKED RECEIVER

There is a thread by someone who has this amp, and he seem very pleased with it.

80w/ch, DAC (2x Optical, 2x Coaxial, USB-Media), Network Streaming (Local & Internet), AM/FM, PHONO, Sub Out, ...

Though the AM/FM aspect isn't worth much. PRICE = £450.

Certainly the Rotel RA-12 is a high quality amp with 60w/ch, but no Networking. Though the Rotel RA-12 does have Bluetooth capability, so you can stream audio from any Smart Device.

However, if movies watching comes into play, then there is an alternative. You can get any amp you want and combine it with the Oppo 103D (£600), Cambridge 752BD (£750), or the Oppo 105D (£1000). This has All Disk Universal Playback, external access to the internal DAC, Audiophile Analog playback quality, Network streaming.

If you break down the individual components of the most expensive player, it is not that far off of buying the components individually -

£300 CD/SACD Player + £300 BluRay Player + £300 DAC + £300 Network Streamer = £1200 TOTAL.

If you want an external streaming device that has an accessible DAC, that can run from £200 up to about £800.

It is important to focus in on and to understand your specific personal requirements.

Also when I questioned you on how loud was loud, you said you were playing back on 37 to 45 on the calibrated volume dial. I think that is giving us a big clue as to what the problem is.

Take a look at this photo -

Teac Reference Series - Page 6

If this photo is correct, you are not even playing at 1/4 volume, you should be up around the 21dB to 17dB range on the dial. Given that your volume control setting is too low, that tells me that the input signal is massively too high, and that you are very likely clipping the input stages of the amp.

If your signal source is ...say... a computer, turn the computer down, and the amp up, and it will very likely be clearer.

I had the same problem recently. My CD Player was massively louder than my Turntable, so much so that it sounded terrible - strained and fatiguing. I added some in-line attenuators to the CD Player and brought the input signal down by 12dB. Now the levels between the CD and Turntable match and CD sounds silky sweet.

I add this illustration to show how over-driving the input can cause unpleasant distortion.

For quiet listening, I'm typically at about a 1/4 turn on the volume dial. For generally comfortable but loud listening I'm typically at about 1/3rd on the volume dial. Unless I'm mistake in my interpretation of what you said, you source input is way to high and your amp volume is way too low.

Under this circumstance it is possible to clip the input signal without clipping the power amps. I varies from device to device, but typically the maximum input signal on a Line Level Input is ±2 volts.

Again, if you are playing at less than a 1/4 turn on the Volume Dial on the amp and you consider that Loud, then your input signal is WAY TOO HIGH. Bring down the level on the Input, and raise the volume on the Amp's Volume Control and that should clear up the sound substantially.

For what it is worth.

Steve/bluewizard
 
Also when I questioned you on how loud was loud, you said you were playing back on 37 to 45 on the calibrated volume dial. I think that is giving us a big clue as to what the problem is.
/.../
your input signal is WAY TOO HIGH.

HOLD. THE. F#%K. UP!!!1

I always play with my streaming service (eg. Spotfy, Wimp) on max, and the pc volume between 60-100. At nights, late evenings, I go down to about 25-40 on my pc. Dear god, holy sheit, mother of all gravy, have I been playing it wrong all this time? This explains why I feel like the sound is so much better in low volumes compared to high - because I control the volume through pc and not the amp.

I have always thought that people must be extremely crazy when they say how loud the play, what decibel level they are at, because in my world that would just completely blow my speakers off. I can't believe my utter stupidity! How could I not put two and two together!?

I will immediately try this.

(I'm sorry lokyc, I promise respond to your terrific post, but I really, really need to try this)
 
Again, there are too many volume controls to contend with. But if your Stereo amp is turned way down and you still think it is loud, then the input signal is way too high.

If you have another constant know source, say a CD Player or something, play that and determine where the volume control is for casual, comfortable loud, and party loud listening level are. For me, that is about 1/4 for casual, ~1/3rd for comfortable loud, and just under half for Party Loud.

Those represent your standard levels. Set the Amp to about 1/3rd and bring the volume on the source up to where what you hear is consistent with the position of the volume control. That assure that the input signal is consistent with common input signals.

Since most of my audio is YouTube, my Volume Control tends to be consistently up in the 35% to 45% range. The sound level on YouTube is not that high. However, on other videos, I frequently have to bring my amp down to about 25% for the sound to be listenable.

Keep in mind I'm using the generic on-board built-in sound card on my computer. It's not that great but good enough for my needs. I feed that into an Onkyo TX-8255 Stereo Receiver, and that feed some 5" bookshelf speakers. If you have a custom sound card in your computer the output could be higher than mine. But everything I've said holds true. Set the Amp to a common and known volume level. The bring up the source volume until what you hear is consistent with the position of the amp's volume control. That helps assure that the Source Volume is not over driving the Amp's inputs.

But, you use the logical and reasonable position of the Amp's volume control to judge the input signal The common working range is about 1/3rd turn of the Amp's Volume control. From that point, you can go up or down using the computer or other input source volume.

Again, if I interpret what you said correctly, you are down below 25% volume, and if that is loud, then absolutely your input levels are too high, and that is causing distortion and fatigue in the resulting sound.

Set the amp at about 1/3rd, and leave it (for the most part, there may be exceptions), the raise and lower the volume using the computers volume controls - the computer master volume and the application volume. I think you will find the sound quality much better.

My CD Player, which is actually a Universal DVD player, was near unbearable. Once I added the considerable attenuators, it now sound silky sweet.

For what it is worth.

Steve/bluewizard
 
Last edited:
My pick would be the RA-12.

At the mid end, around 1k, there is an abundance of choice. WHF's favourite, Roksan is one of them, though I find it a bit too bright.

Rotels do good honest to goodness pre and power amp combos, and is an option if you're looking at this price range.

Another left field option is the Anthem Intergrated 225wpc integegrated amp. Judging by musical abilities of their MRX receivers, you won't be disappointed. Although integrated, it houses a proper power amp stage with an oversized transforrmer etc.

Hey, thanks for the input. My thought is that the integrated DAC is a must. I want to keep it clean and simple, and as I only use digital sources I have next to no (except for a BT-receiver) use of analogue inputs. Thinking that we kind of I've in the future, amp with integrated dacs should perform at a very satisfying way.

But I still haven't got to the point of really knowing in which segment I should place my next buy. Money is of course always an issue, but time isn't so I can save money. The thing is with audio equipment is that prices on entry levels varies immensely. I never even thought that the RA-12 was considered an entry level amp.
 
Again, there are too many volume controls to contend with. But if you Stereo amp is turned way down and you still think it is loud, then the input signal is way too high.

Well, yeah, so I just tried this. I lowered the volume on my pc to 30. Wimp was on max (don't know if this has any effect). I played some tracks I've listened to a lot. I turned up the dialer to about 21-23.

Result: You were right, mr BlueWizard, sir. You were damn right!
 
The position of Winamp (or is it actually Wimp? Wimp Streaming service?) and the Computer Master Volume are somewhat irrelevant. They combine to create the signal that actually comes out of the computer. And as long as that final output signal is within the working range of your amp, you are fine.

The 21 to 23 range on the TEAC Amp's volume control seems about right, that is in the area of 1/3rd. Mostly I set my Amp and forget it, only under a few rare circumstance to I actually have to change the amp. With a normal (say CD or Turntable) 1/3rd volume is plenty loud, so across of range of louder and quieter inputs, you should still be safe. With the volume set in that position you would have to be approaching crazy loud to over drive the amp.

If you find a signal that is exceptionally loud at the source, it is OK to turn the amp down a bit. And if you find a source that is exceptionally quiet, it is OK to turn the amp up a bit as well. But I think for a vast majority of listening, with the Amp set at about 1/3rd (21 to 23), you should be fine.

This shows the importance of we, the responders, having little details of information in evaluating the problem. Often when we ask for some little detail the Original Poster tells himself that couldn't possibly matter, and doesn't respond. If I had not gone back and look at the amp and saw where your volume control was set, based on the information you posted, I would have never understood the problem.

The Devil is always in the details.

Steve/bluewizard
 

The latest video from AVForums

Is 4K Blu-ray Worth It?
Subscribe to our YouTube channel
Back
Top Bottom