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Help! Lipsync problem with Samsung thingy

Dolby_Dobbin

Standard Member
This is probably a very stupid problem (if not a common one), but hey it's my first post and apologies if it's in the wrong place too.
The problem I have is with my newly installed Philips 32PFL7862D, Samsung AV-R620 AV receiver and Sky+(SD). I've connected the audio optical output of the Sky+ box directly into the AV receiver and the SCART video directly to the TV. When watching Sky+ with the audio from the AV receiver selected the delay is rubbish. I can't seem to work out if the audio lags the video or vice versa (I'm guessing the audio leads the video due to the processing time of the TV :confused: ). I have checked that when using the TV audio everything is ok. I've tried turning off all the processing on the TV but to no avail. Am I wasting my time, and should I take the receiver back and get one with delay controls?

Any suggestions at all would be greatly appreciated.
 

sp_harris

Active Member
Isn't there a lip sync delay in the sky menu's - not certain, but worth pressing the services button, then into the settings.
 

Lee

Moderator
Unfortunately lipsync can be a problem with sky. Sometimes changing channels and then changing back again can correct it. Sky have put lipsync control on the HD boxes but not on the + boxes.

There are some threads about lipsync here with solutions including getting an amp with a delay control.
 

Nexsen

Active Member
The only REAL solution to lip-sync error is a remote controlled variable audio delay that allows you to shift the audio in either direction while watching without disrupting the image.

Three companies make such units: Alchemy, Felston and Primare

They all adjust in 1 ms increments (the newest felston goes to 1/3 ms) with no menus to disrupt what you are watching and they all offer over 600 ms delay which overcomes the deficiencies of a/v receivers that claim lip-sync correction but make it essentially impossible by either not having enough delay or disrupting what you are watching with menus overlaying the screen.

I have a Felston DD740 and had both their DD340 and DD540 and would not consider being without one.
 

Dolby_Dobbin

Standard Member
The only REAL solution to lip-sync error is a remote controlled variable audio delay that allows you to shift the audio in either direction while watching without disrupting the image.

Three companies make such units: Alchemy, Felston and Primare

They all adjust in 1 ms increments (the newest felston goes to 1/3 ms) with no menus to disrupt what you are watching and they all offer over 600 ms delay which overcomes the deficiencies of a/v receivers that claim lip-sync correction but make it essentially impossible by either not having enough delay or disrupting what you are watching with menus overlaying the screen.

I have a Felston DD740 and had both their DD340 and DD540 and would not consider being without one.
That's just what I need thanks :)

You'd think that the manufacturers of AV recievers would included sufficient delay controls (if any). It's not complex really.
 

Dolby_Dobbin

Standard Member
Oh and I forgot to mention I replaced the Samsung thing with a Sony reciever. The Sony unit does allow for some delay but only 68ms. But it's better than a poke in the eye with a blunt stick!
 

Nexsen

Active Member
That 68 ms audio delay will definitely help since it might offset the "fixed" video delay caused by your display. It would for my EDTV plasma since its video delay is only about 60 ms but 68 ms won't be nearly enough for most HD displays.

But an even bigger problem with a/v receiver's lip-sync correction - even those that offer enough delay - is that they don't acknowledge that lip-sync error constantly changes from program to program and correction requires fine tuning as you watch without having to go to a set-up menu disrupting what you are watching.

A/V receiver manufacturer's seem to think the display's video delay is the only cause of lip-sync error. It may be the "straw that broke the camel's back" causing it to be noticeable but it is far from the only cause of lip-sync error.

Lip-sync error starts at image capture and continues through post production and broadcast (and even DVD encoding). It creeps into the signal in tiny increments at numerous points where it isn't noticed but since it is cumulative it can eventually add up to more than the fixed error caused by a display which often gets the blame.

In my personal case my plasma (EDTV not HD)adds about 60 ms video delay but for the programs we watch this season a delay (from my Felston DD740) from 21 ms to 131 ms is required for perfect sync.

That means my arriving signals vary from audio being "delayed" by 39 ms to audio arriving 71 ms "early". If I used a fixed audio delay of 60 ms to correct for my plasma I would still experience the +39 to -71 ms swing in lip-sync error which is far larger than the 60 ms caused by my display.

If I did not have any correction at all I would experience audio ahead of video ranging from -21 ms to -131 ms which is arguably no less satisfactory than the +39 to -71 ms range when corrected with the "fixed" 60 ms delay.

Since the recognition of lip-sync error is masked by our brain's desire to avoid processing something that is impossible (as lip-sync error is in nature) it is hard to know in a forum if we're seeing the same thing.

You will encounter forum members who tell you their identical equipment has no problem - not because it doesn't but because they can't "see it".

A Stanford Study proved most people don't notice 41.25 ms of lip-sync error but it's interesting that "once it is noticed" many people can detect a single ms variation in lip-sync. So what is the criteria? Should it just be to get lip-sync error low enough that we don't consciously notice it?

Since I learned (from the Stanford Study) that lip-sync error - even when not consciously noticed - undermines our perception of the characters making us feel they are more agitated, less successful and less persuasive I deliberately focus on the lips and adjust my Felston DD740 down to the millisecond between every program and DVD we watch.

It's quite easy as it only involves a touch of its + and - buttons to shift the audio either direction while watching the undisturbed screen and a small investment in time to preserve the very essence of cinema itself - our perception of the characters and story in my opinion.
 

accurity

Standard Member
I just got the AV-R620 yesterday so I guess I'll have to get the lip-sync delay module after I try it out. Interestingly though - the Sony user manual states that the 68ms delay ONLY works on the non-5.1 stereo input! :eek:
 

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