hdv nightmare!!!!

Discussion in 'Camcorders, Action Cams & Video Making Forum' started by stevo 7, Apr 25, 2007.

  1. stevo 7

    stevo 7
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2007
    Messages:
    10
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Ratings:
    +2
    Here i was looking at the forums thinking a sony hdv hc7 would be fine:clap: after reading a canon or sony debate i was set on a hv20,(thanks for the link redsox)
    But when i downloaded a demo video i found a new high def camcorder the xh a1 wow:D

    Now for the question who makes a better camcorder sony v1 or canon xha1??

    Im new to this and they aint getting cheaper

    cheers
     
  2. redsox_mark

    redsox_mark
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2003
    Messages:
    6,512
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Bath, England
    Ratings:
    +620
    I try not to think about these prosumer cams as I know I can't afford them....:(

    But what I've heard from a pro who has used both, they are very close. Kind of like how the HC3 and HV10 are close, the HC7 and HV20 are close. There is no clear winner. The pro likes the build quality and color of the V1 better, but the A1 has a slight edge in the low light dept, and has a much more manual control.
     
  3. MarkJayne

    MarkJayne
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    79
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    9
    Location:
    Aberystwyth
    Ratings:
    +0
    I'm currently using a Canon XM2, but I'm thinking of upgrading to HD. The new Canon XH A1 gets my vote. Just need to work on her indoors ;)

    Mark:)
     
  4. senu

    senu
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2005
    Messages:
    19,349
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Denham, South Bucks
    Ratings:
    +2,811
    I used ( still have ) a Sony VX2100 and the a Sony FX1 ( , but the walkabout is a quite well liked HC1)

    The Canon XH A1 looks ace:smashin: but apart from liking Canon ( from using the MX2) Im sure any of these "prosumer") semi pro camcorders will do you just fine
     
  5. stevo 7

    stevo 7
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2007
    Messages:
    10
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Ratings:
    +2
    See this is the problem!!!
    you have an fx1 and every time i ring anywhere al i get is oooooooo you dont want that!! coz it aint got that n it dont do this..

    My other problem is that the kind of filming i intend to do is of a proffesional nature not just home stuff just as a hobby. So if i turn up with a small hand held cam hc3 or hv20 like that will i be taken seriously or will i be laughed out of the place?


    help
     
  6. senu

    senu
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2005
    Messages:
    19,349
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Denham, South Bucks
    Ratings:
    +2,811
    The Z1 is the pro version of the FX1. I have only used it on loan but never had it for longer. It is said to have over 40 features the FX1 doesnt have

    The FX1 and VX 2100 are called prosumer:

    Apart from perception. there are certain features which make a camcorder more pro oriented
    these are mainly
    Much better colours contrast and sharpness
    Better low light ability
    Manual features : to adjust exposure
    Audio ( balanced microphone input) and level control features
    Faster more accurate and quick recourse to Manual focusing
    In some cases ability to change lenses

    What you use will be determined by what you are working on and how well you are able to quickly access and benefit from the extra control

    The smaller camcorders will not do you visual "cred " much good but the bigger ones wont make you take better videos overnight without the know how
    I'm not sure of your time scale but you will benefit by doing alot of projects ( birthdays , christenings , fairs, event for the practice to get a feel for what you will need; There are also video forums where people of similar aspirations meet and share ideas

    As for the costly cams ,You may want to hire them initially to save money and find out what you gel with before committing large sums of money on all this

    Note that a decent tripod and ancillary lighting and external mic are almost mandatory
     
  7. redsox_mark

    redsox_mark
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2003
    Messages:
    6,512
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Bath, England
    Ratings:
    +620
    Good advice Senu.

    Just want to add.. the FX7 is the prosumer version of the Sony V1. Like the FX1 vs Z1, it is the same physical body, lens, sensor etc as the V1, but costs about £1000 less. It has less features and controls than the V1, but still more than your typical consumer cam, and as it shares the same body it will have the same street cred as the V1 unless they look at the label and know the difference....
     
  8. stevo 7

    stevo 7
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2007
    Messages:
    10
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Ratings:
    +2
    Thank you all for helping, As now im the proud owner of a hv20 :clap: and im sat reading the manual right now!!

    I'll let you all now how it is( if u like ) once i've rtfm:lesson: .

    Cheers Again
    Stevo
     
  9. hi2shy

    hi2shy
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2004
    Messages:
    74
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    11
    Ratings:
    +3
    That's great news Stevo. :thumbsup:

    I've been looking to get this camcorder too as the reviews are good.:D

    Can I ask how much you paid for it? A friend of mine is getting one too but he's off to Japan in June, where it is currently selling for £374 plus you get 5% tax back at the airport!!

    I'm not sure if I should wait til he goes there and get one from him or get it from here.

    I'd be interested in knowing what you think of the HV20.
     
  10. stevo 7

    stevo 7
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2007
    Messages:
    10
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Ratings:
    +2
    The first price they told me was £850.00
    What i paid was £730.00 with a hdmi cable & box of tapes thrown in!!:smashin:

    I still havent used it yet though, but im of out to film a m8 fly his nitro heli(crashing in high definition):eek:
     
  11. MarkJayne

    MarkJayne
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    79
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    9
    Location:
    Aberystwyth
    Ratings:
    +0
    Good news stevo7. Be sure to share some of the RC Heli action ;)

    Talking of sharing, this is one area I'm not sure on with HDV. I've seen some of the HD samples on the microsoft website, which look superb, but notice they have compressed them in WMV 9 Professional. Whats the difference between the pro and standard or advanced version. If I go down the HD road I need to know that the footage can be compressed for internet viewing, even if a 3min vid does take 100mb webspace. I know your going to loose some of that HD bling, but then you do with normal DV.

    Any thoughts,

    Mark:)
     
  12. redsox_mark

    redsox_mark
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2003
    Messages:
    6,512
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Bath, England
    Ratings:
    +620
    I don't know about WMV Professional... but any of the mainstream video editing apps should be able to convert HDV to .wmv at various sizes and quality settings. If you can afford the space/bandwidth you can save them as high def resoultuon, if not you can reduce them as much as you like (with the quality hit that goes with it).

    Some nice examples from a forum member, using a HC1
    http://www.nymrfootage.co.uk/

    Here you will find both high def and small low resolution versions of each clip.
     
  13. MarkJayne

    MarkJayne
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    79
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    9
    Location:
    Aberystwyth
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks Mark,

    One thing I noticed, is that it didn't seem that fluid when a train went past the camera. It looked a tad juddery :confused:

    Did you notice this.

    Mark:)
     
  14. senu

    senu
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2005
    Messages:
    19,349
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Denham, South Bucks
    Ratings:
    +2,811
    Which of the many clips?
    : Youll notice that he initially used Studio 10.1 for the 720p and Liquid for 1080i
    After SP1 he started using Liquid for 720p.

    He explained why in some of his posts at the time of making them.
    I havent seen any obvious juddering but Im sure he would know why if its there
    You might want to PM Laser for details
     
  15. andyh41

    andyh41
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2000
    Messages:
    255
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    East Grinstead
    Ratings:
    +3
    Hi Stevo,

    I've had an HV20 pre-ordered for ages now and it's still not in stock :mad:

    Where did you gets yours for £730?
     
  16. redsox_mark

    redsox_mark
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2003
    Messages:
    6,512
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Bath, England
    Ratings:
    +620
    I hadn't, but as Senu said there are lots of clips... which one did you see this on? If the shot is handleld it might be the camera handling rather than the encoding.

    I sent the author (laser) an IM, hopefully he can comment.
     
  17. MarkJayne

    MarkJayne
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    79
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    9
    Location:
    Aberystwyth
    Ratings:
    +0
  18. redsox_mark

    redsox_mark
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2003
    Messages:
    6,512
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Bath, England
    Ratings:
    +620
    Mark,

    I think I see what you are saying... It's not bad, but it isn't totally "fluid". I'd guess this happened in the deinterlacing to 25p. There is also some "shimmering" on the front of the train as it gets close.
     
  19. senu

    senu
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2005
    Messages:
    19,349
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Denham, South Bucks
    Ratings:
    +2,811
    I see what you mean by judder: It is there but not on all playback software
    I played it on
    Power DVD 6
    VLC
    GOM player
    Nero showtime
    WMP 10

    Like the RC cilps in a previous thread, it was on a multiscreen with the secondary monitor being a 19" Samsung HD LCD
    The judder was practically absent played through Power DVD
    It was minimal ( you had to look for it) played through VLC
    GOM player needed me to reinstall th wm9 codec
    and
    WMP was the worst playback.. but this is still all relative

    I suspect that this playback fluidity may be partly system dependent
     
  20. redsox_mark

    redsox_mark
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2003
    Messages:
    6,512
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Bath, England
    Ratings:
    +620
    Good points Senu... yes the system, software and codecs can all impact this.

    I only tried WMP.
     
  21. MarkJayne

    MarkJayne
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    79
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    9
    Location:
    Aberystwyth
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks Senu and Mark, I'm glad its not just me ;)

    I too have only played it in WMP, so I'll also have to try another player.

    Mark:)
     
  22. MarkJayne

    MarkJayne
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    79
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    9
    Location:
    Aberystwyth
    Ratings:
    +0
    Now I have another problem.

    I've downloaded some of the Canon HD samples from their site. When I come to play them, they stick big time and end up shutting down the Media player ( Quicktime 7 ). If I save it to a memory card, and then play the file from there, I have no trouble, it plays silky smooth. I'm running it on my new MESH PC, so hardware shouldn't be an issue. Playing the file from the hard drive on my laptop is fine.

    Any idea's :confused:

    Mark:)
     
  23. MarkJayne

    MarkJayne
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    79
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    9
    Location:
    Aberystwyth
    Ratings:
    +0
    Well I've played around with Vegas with some new footage from my new Canon XHA1 (what a stunner) and I've managed to get some pretty good results with saving to WMV9. What I've noticed, is that if you save the HDV footage as 50fps (double PAL) you get really smooth playback without any interlace artifacts. When I saved to 25fps and de-interlaced the playback wasn't as smooth and looked very similar to the train vids above. You guy's probably already know this, but thought I'd share my findings. Vegas is looking better and better the more I use it :smashin:

    Mark:)
     
  24. redsox_mark

    redsox_mark
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2003
    Messages:
    6,512
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Bath, England
    Ratings:
    +620
    Mark,

    Congratulations on the XHA1 (I'm jealous...)

    I've not tried using 50fps, that's interesting. I just tried that and it looked good, though on my PC it seemed to have some trouble keeping up (using WMP to play it). Obviously it will be harder for the PC to play 50 fps than 25.
     
  25. MarkJayne

    MarkJayne
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    79
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    9
    Location:
    Aberystwyth
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi Mark,

    Yes I didn't think of the extra power 50fps would need. I will however be using a lower resolution, maybe something around the 900 pixel wide. Maybe that will help for folks running on less power. I didn't think that Vegas would take my fancy the way it has, it sure does have a lot of rendering settings that can be tweaked.

    Mark:)
     
  26. redsox_mark

    redsox_mark
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2003
    Messages:
    6,512
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Bath, England
    Ratings:
    +620
    Yes.. that would help. The quick test I did I used full resolution and a high bitrate..

    I agree the rendering options are very flexible.
     
  27. laser

    laser
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2004
    Messages:
    1,021
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Hartlepool
    Ratings:
    +54
    Just picked up on this thread....I'm recorded the footage of D7628.

    The motion is slightly jerky and is due to the wmv encoding. When watching the footage from the camcorder or from captured .m2t or m2v files, the motion is fluid.

    The encoding of the wmv files is very compressed i.e. 4.5 mb/s compared to 26 mb/s for the original footage so it's not surprising there is a trade off.

    This is sort of confirmed if you watch the very low res wmv files, the jerkiness ore pronounced due to the low bit rate of 356 kb/s

    It is possible to nearly eliminate the jerkiness with a good graphics card and a decent codec but it's inherent in the encoding of the video to wmv.
     
  28. senu

    senu
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2005
    Messages:
    19,349
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Denham, South Bucks
    Ratings:
    +2,811
    A few questions

    You did mention some differences in Pinnacle Studio, Liquid encoding of WMV.. Im assuming the advent of Avid Liquid 7 means Pinacle Studio has taken a bck seat
    With Sony Vegas 7, a repair of my windows install meant that it wouldn't encode to WMV without a reinstall of WM 9 encoder.. makes me wonder if that isnt what actually does it in the background
    ..
     
  29. laser

    laser
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2004
    Messages:
    1,021
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Hartlepool
    Ratings:
    +54
    I still use Pinnacle Studio for smaller projects but much prefer Liquid as I find if much faster to use and is more stable. Plus the wmv encoding options are more flexible than studio.

    Incidently, WMP11 did break Liqiud 7.1 so I've stuck with WMP10. I guess the codec installed with version 11 was not compatible with Liquid 7.1, although the problems or a workaround is now available, I think.

    The reason for using wmv format over say Apply Quicktime is most people tend to use Windows and therefore have the ability to play WMV files without installing additional software.
     
  30. MarkJayne

    MarkJayne
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Messages:
    79
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    9
    Location:
    Aberystwyth
    Ratings:
    +0
    Lets say you render a video with wmv and quicktime. Both of them are around the same file size. Which one would throw out better quality. I've never done much with Quicktime.

    Mark:)
     

Share This Page

Loading...