HDTV - are we being cheated?

Discussion in 'LCD & LED LCD TVs Forum' started by stacks100, Mar 26, 2006.

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  1. stacks100

    stacks100
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    Hi all,

    Read an intersting article in the Daily Mail, Saturday 18th March.

    In summary it says that the majority (it states 99%) of HDTV ready sets in the UK are only above to display 720 lines which = around a million pixels. It goes on to state that the quality of HD broadcasts with be around 2 million pixels, therefore most LCD's will only show around 50% of the broadcast quality potential.

    The article goes on to say that manufacturers will be the winners as they will soon start to market "HD Full sets" which can show 2 million pixels.

    Have those that have purchased sets been cheated?
     
  2. ianh64

    ianh64
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    Sounds like a very misleading article. There are very few sources that can output what the marketing people call "full" HD sets (1080p) and there are going to be none that broadcast this for the lifetime of most displays - broadcast 1080p is many many years off. 720p and 1080i (in reality about 800 lines) are going to be the main stay of broadcast TV for very many years to come.

    Its like saying that there are not may cars that can do 200mph when there are no motorways that allow you to make full use of the vehicle.
     
  3. in2deep

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    You don't need to read any more, that very sentence tells you the accuracy of this piece of "journalism" :rotfl:

    Err....No! Those of us that have bought LCD sets have bought them knowing that HD broadcasts aren't even available yet for us (I don't have $ky or Telewest), but we're buying into an element of future-proofing, and also buying a digital set allows a much wider range of connectivity than before.

    My Tosh WLT now gives me many more connections than I had on my old CRT set:

    2 x HDMI (therefore I can plug my DVD in for a straight digital path from disc to screen; I can also plug my Media Center PC in at the same time)
    Component (can plug my Toppy PVR in here)
    3 x SCART (NTL box and S-VHS video)
    VGA (plug a 2nd PC in if I want, or something else)
    Composite (all others)

    This makes the set a much better entertainment centre than previously.

    The Daily Mail is a typical waste of paper - they even follow the Government line against diesel cars, with their ill-informed thinking! :mad:
     
  4. Teppic

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    From everything i've heard about that article (i haven't read it for myself, but then i'd never give any time to that particular paper) the person who wrote it simply didn't have a full understanding of the situation, and as such their article is fundamentally flawed. Seems to be the usual case of a journalist finding a subject too complicated and so jumping to conclusions and publishing their own misunderstandings as 'fact'.

    The sad thing is that i've lost count of how many times and in how many places i've seen people panicking after hearing about this particular story. Ironic that a newspaper article supposedly complaining about misinformation should end up being far more misinforming than the very thing they're complaining about. But then this is the Daily Mail we're talking about... :rolleyes:
     
  5. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Hello stacks100

    A couple of friends with retail stores said last weekend was a nightmare with lots of folk arriving in-store with that article in hand being quoted as the Bible of all things HD.

    There are various 'flavours' of High Definition video as defined by the folk who govern all things audio visual in the world of Film and Broadcasting - 1920 pixels x1080 pixels in a progressive format is currently the highest resolution defined for consumer broadcast systems.

    1920x1080 is very expensive to implement via most Broadcast or Pre Recorded formats so for most HD sources your going to be dealing with 1280x720 (Progressive) and 1920x1080 (Interlaced) for the foreseeable future.

    The majority of Displays on the market are built on production plants originally designed to produce 1024x768 42" and 1366x768 50" panels - a lot of these panels are capable of displaying 1280x720P and 1920x1080i signals and a very few are capable of displaying 1920x1080P signals.

    The very latest production plants (and some of the newer Display technologies) are starting to produce 1920x1080 pixel arrays - though very few are on the market as yet and even fewer have arrived in Europe and some of those that have arrived will not process a 1920x1080P signal.

    If you want a 1920x1080P Plasma Display expect to pay around 7K and have room for a 50" Display or larger.

    At a viewing distance of approx 3m the majority of Display manufactures do not believe there is enough difference when viewing a 1920x1080P signal on a 1920x1080 Pixel Display vs. viewing the same signal on a 1024x768 Pixel Display to justify the higher price differential that would have to currently exist to manufacturer such a Display.

    See the many posts on the Plasma Forum where folk are amazed at how a decent quality 852x480 pixel array looks when you input 1280x720P or 1920x1080i signals - those are folk who don't feel a £600.00 premium for a 1024x768 pixel array is justified; try selling them a 1920x1080 pixel array at a £6k premium :)

    By the time 1920x1080P pre recorded sources are out and the broadcasters have spent the big money to implement 1080P you'll be reading Newspaper articles telling you a 1080P Display is no good as you need a 4K device; see http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/4864

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  6. David Mackenzie

    David Mackenzie
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    :smashin:

    Yes, today's TVs are better at showing 720p and don't show all of the detail of 1080i or 1080p. It's not so much us being cheated as the higher res panels being more expensive to make and sell.
     
  7. Argee1977

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    If you've actually seen an LCD outputing 720p for stuff like football, movies and games then you'll really wonder why its worth jumping upto 1080p pictures that you'd need to be 1 foot away from the TV to notice.
     
  8. jedi-jae

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    I would hazard a guess that 1080p will always be a niche resolution.

    Every HD device coming out this year and beyond will support 720p and 1080i as they are the two most common supported resolutions. But, if you do grab yourself a set that can support 1080p, I imagine the option will be there for HD movies. I can't ever see it being the norm or a required resolution.

    Everyone on this forum that currently has a flat panel will eventually replace it, and by the time they do 1080p resolution will be supported by all sets.
     
  9. David Mackenzie

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    1080p is what Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will output so it'll be anything but a niche one.
     
  10. Chris Muriel

    Chris Muriel
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    I thought only one of them was going full 1080P ?
    (Maybe I am misinformed)

    Chris Muriel, Manchester
     
  11. ripkord

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    yeah beta-ray is gonna be 1080p, thought MS was sticking to 720?
     
  12. pjskel

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    Huh?
    What's MS got to do with BR and HD-DVD?
    If you're off on a tangent about XBox 360 and PS3, then HD-DVD "add-on" has been announced, but most of us think this is a ruse and it'll be the first revision of the 360 and it'll be integrated with the output being HDMI enabled.
    Current users may/will get an add-on unit and a firmware update over Live or supplied disc to enable the HDMI output.

    As for HD-DVD, there was something I recall mentioned about them not doing 1080p at launch, but I don't believe that. 1080p is too big a Holy Grail to pass over. It certainly helps the marketing dept. sell the more is better concept, yet again and as always.
     
  13. Argee1977

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    I think HD-DVD will be using 720p/1080i for the first couple of years at least, as HD TVs are still not the majority in the market and 1080p TVs will be a small percentage of that, for the next 2 years 1080p TVs will be a niche, which means any studio releasing HD TVs will cater for the mass market, which currently is 720p.

    Don't get me wrong, they'll be more than capable of moving onto 1080p at the drop of a hat, but the guys behind this release want to cater to the mass HD market, and for the next few years that'll be 720p.
     
  14. jedi-jae

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    No, what I meant was that because current HDtv's don't support 1080p it is doubtful it would ever become the norm, i.e. 1080i and 720p get phased out in favour of 1080p. I think the former two will always have support, but clearly if you do have a set that can show 1080p you'll be able to use it.

    1080p will be the "elite" setting that the majority of current HDtv owners won't be able to make use of until they change their set, though for me that won't be for a few years yet!
     
  15. David Mackenzie

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    Ah, I getcha. Yeah, same here - I'm planning my next 768-line LCD!
     
  16. davedavidson

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    I have to say i kind of agree with both points of view!

    I think that the article was poorly written and didn't really give the full story! I know a lot of people who called me saying 'whats going on, you said our new plasma was HD ready, blah blah blah'.

    As has been said, HD Ready just means a TV meets certain criteria. And according to that criteria all HD Ready TV's are HD ready!

    There are only a handfull of TV's which have enough resolution to show 1080p, and even fewer with a HDMI input capable of the bandwidth required to recieve 1080p signals! However, most people will only be using 720p for the immediate future and its unlikely that there will be 1080p broadcasts in the next 5 years.

    However, in the next 2 - 3 years 1080p HD content will be widely available (PS3, Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, PC's) but even then unless you are going to get a 50" + TV there will be little or no point in having 1080p. Personally, i have a Pioneer 436XDE which looks amazing with 720p content and i intend to keep it for the next 5 - 7 years or until some new tech comes along and is cheap enough to buy!

    That said, i currently have a home cinema setup and will upgrade to a 1080p projector as soon as they hit the 2k mark. Obviously i will still use my Plasma at 720p for regular TV, but for big sporting events and movies i will use the screen and 1080p for that extra special experience!

    So in summary, if your planning on getting a screen that is 50" + then wait and get 1080p, otherwise go for something that can show 720p and be amazed!
     
  17. Angry the Clown

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    To clear some things up on the 1080p front regarding the HD formats. Film releases on BOTH Blu Ray and HD DVD are encoded onto the discs as 1080p/24.

    All the Blu Ray players announced thus far will allow the user to select output options ranging from 720p to 1080i and to 1080p. Some will also offer additional options allowing you to ouput 1080p/24, 1080p/24sf or 1080p/60 too. It's true the first two HD DVD players will only output 720p and 1080i, but a firmware update later will add 1080p, and second gen models will likely do 1080p out of the box. Bottom lime though, actual disc content is being encoded as 1080p/24 from the get go.


    As far as the article goes, it's certainly typical Daily Mail 'you're all being ripped off' scare mongering, failing to take into account the logistical realties that are screen size and viewing distance. Pity it wasn't the slightest bit educational in that regard. If I got myself a 1024x768 plasma or 1366x768 LCD I certainly wouldn't feel cheated. Yes I'd like that forthcoming 55 inch 1080p SXRD rear projection television from Sony - it's superb technology - but it's not looking practical for me to adopt a rear projection set, so I myself am in the market of looking at either the current Panasonic HD8 plasma or the newer refined 40inch Bravia LCD due in May and am not put off in the slightest by either not being 1080p, not for under two grand at any rate.
     
  18. Danj

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    I think my dad must have read this article... he's signed up for Sky HD (because of the special free installation preorder offer) but we don't actually have an HDTV yet, and he seems to have got it into his head that we need a 1920x1080 one. I've searched all over the place and the cheapest such TV I can find is the Toshiba 42WLT66 at £1789.99, but he says that's too expensive. So:

    a) Are there any cheaper 1920x1080 LCD TVs than the one I mentioned?

    or

    b) Is there an authoritative article somewhere which I can show him which will explain that 1280x720 isn't "bad"?

    Also, why are the vast majority of LCD HDTVs 1366x768 or some such? Surely it's better to have a panel that's actually HDTV native resolution (i.e. 1280x720 or 1920x1080) otherwise it'll be scaling all the time?
     
  19. blakey1

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    One thing that has been suggested is that HD ready LCD's do not do a good job of deinterlacing and that they simply take a 1080i signal turn it into 540p and then scale the picture up meaning 1080i signals on HD ready LCD's may not reall be HD signals but just scaled 540p

    Its also been suggested that Sky installers have been advised to set the box to 1080i as most channels are in 1080i. Therefore for SKy HD it would be advisable to buy a 1080i panel if what I have been reading is true.

    Of course I dont know how true what I have been reading is. If though most of the channels are 720p then a 768 panel would be fine as it would do little scaling.
     
  20. NicolasB

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    As a rule you shouldn't believe what you read in the Daily Mail, but they do kind of have a point, here: 1920x1080 displays have been available in the US for some time, but thus far almost none have made it to this country. Where are the 1080p DILA devices? Where are the 1080p DLP devices? Where are the hi-def CRT TVs? Where are the sensibly-sized and sensibly-priced 1080p LCD screens? The manufacturers are clearly trying to make money by only allowing 720p devices onto the market in time for the big British HD launch, hoping that lots of people will then upgrade sooner rather than later once they "allow" us to buy the 1080p devices that came out in america a year ago. :(
     
  21. Danj

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    Well, yes, obviously I know that, but I need some way to convince my dad, since he is the one with the purse-strings (as it were) and if he's going to make us wait for affordable 1080 TVs it'll be 2008 before we even think about getting one, so we'll have been stuck with Sky HD for two years but with only SDTVs to watch it on.
     

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