HDR benefits for projector

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Video bitrates for Netflix 1080p streams have averages that are typically between 3500-6000Kbps, with Amazon it's more likely to be 10,000Kbps. That's h264, excluding audio. Don't know about 4K bitrates.


Yup Netflix's is known to be pathetically low. :( I think recently they halved their 1080p and 4K bitrates.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
Hm.. PC gaming use exactly the same assets. It's literally just downscaling the resolution. Every parameter is under your control from anti aliasing to texture resolution to detail to shadow quality.

Video games are a GREAT reference for comparing the impact of resolution IMO because its a literal on/off switch with every single parameter the same. In films we can have so many confounding factors (e.g. colour grading).
Then do me a favor, run a 4K scene, make a screencap, downscale it to 1080P, and then upscale it back to 4K, and put them side by side with the 4K screencap, so we can see the difference.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
Yup Netflix's is known to be pathetically low. :( I think recently they halved their 1080p and 4K bitrates.
There is worse, and still the quality mostly depends on the streaming device, there is a specific reason im still using the OPPO 103D to stream Netflix on my HT setup, none of the other streaming boxes can deliver the same quality on-screen.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Then do me a favor, run a 4K scene, make a screencap, downscale it to 1080P, and then upscale it back to 4K, and put them side by side with the 4K screencap, so we can see the difference.

Buy gaming PC mate and just do it yourself lol.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
Buy gaming PC mate and just do it yourself.
Im not into gaming, im into HT projectors players and hifi, so as i mentioned earlier, games is a broken reference for showing detail difference between 1080P and 4K
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Im not into gaming, im into HT projectors players and hifi, so as i mentioned earlier, games is a broken reference for showing detail difference between 1080P and 4K


Yeah, buy a PC and see for yourself.

Why is it a 'broken reference'? If anything, its a gold standard metric for showing how important resolution is compared to some of the crap 4K 'remastered discs' we see in stores of films.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
Yeah, buy a PC and see for yourself.

Why is it a 'broken reference'? If anything, its a gold standard metric for showing how important resolution is compared to some of the crap 4K 'remastered discs' we see in stores of films.
If it is as you say only a scaling difference, then its the same as downscaling and then upscaling, and no way will that make the differences as shown in the image you displayed earlier, that looked like on of those advertising images where they on purpose make the lower resolution look significantly worse than it actually is. I dont see much 4K content, i find its a broke format that dont fit on the projector, i care about getting directors intent, i make a huge effort in calibrating to reference standards, im not interested in some wow its so wow, uhh the grass looks bluish, and now i need my sunglasses, please. Some like that, not my choice. I cant see more pixel details in a 4K movie over the same 1080P movie upscaled to 4K, often the resolution is limited by optics, cameras and display capabilities, 4K projectors are great, as they reduce pixel structure, makes a smoother image like a painting, where a 1080P projector have the grid/ mosquito net look.
Ill recommend you try it with a JVC N series projector, and use OPPO 203/205 or Lumagen upscaling to 4K, see it for yourself
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
If it is as you say only a scaling difference, then its the same as downscaling and then upscaling, and no way will that make the differences as shown in the image you displayed earlier, that looked like on of those advertising images where they on purpose make the lower resolution look significantly worse than it actually is. I dont see much 4K content, i find its a broke format that dont fit on the projector, i care about getting directors intent, i make a huge effort in calibrating to reference standards, im not interested in some wow its so wow, uhh the grass looks bluish, and now i need my sunglasses, please. Some like that, not my choice. I cant see more pixel details in a 4K movie over the same 1080P movie upscaled to 4K, often the resolution is limited by optics, cameras and display capabilities, 4K projectors are great, as they reduce pixel structure, makes a smoother image like a painting, where a 1080P projector have the grid/ mosquito net look.
Ill recommend you try it with a JVC N series projector, and use OPPO 203/205 or Lumagen upscaling to 4K, see it for yourself


4K is just a higher resolution. No sun glasses, no blue grass mentioned here.

I think you're constantly coupling 4K & HDR together. Thats not the point of the video game comparison I have explained above.

For video games, there are no optics/camera lenses/how something was filmed, the DI of the camera to worry about, hence its excellent at showcasing the advantages of 4K. Hence why I think its a gold standard for showcasing the advantages of a higher resolution.



Another example. There are hundreds on youtube if you can't afford the time/money/energy to build your own PC.

If you did want screen captures, head to the PC gaming forum on here and ask someone who has a 4K display and a 4K capable card to provide you with whatever you need.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
4K is just a higher resolution. No sun glasses, no blue grass mentioned here.

I think you're constantly coupling 4K & HDR together. Thats not the point of the video game comparison I have explained above.

For video games, there are no optics/camera lenses/how something was filmed, the DI of the camera to worry about, hence its excellent at showcasing the advantages of 4K. Hence why I think its a gold standard for showcasing the advantages of a higher resolution.



Another example. There are hundreds on youtube if you can't afford the time/money/energy to build your own PC.

If you did want screen captures, head to the PC gaming forum on here and ask someone who has a 4K display and a 4K capable card to provide you with whatever you need.
If i was interested in gaming i would visit that section of the forum, how is gaming relevant here, so please try keep the discussion relevant to projectors' movies and HDR on projectors, i have no interest in discussing gaming, im not a teenager.
 

alebonau

Distinguished Member
been enjoying 4k on gaming via first xbox one x and since more lately xbox series X... there is much to enjoy... ms flight simulator is something amazing as is forza or even the new f1 game :) love it :D ps curiously though i can play on either our oled or projector ... i dont seem to hanker as much for screen size with gaming as do for movies, sports, concerts and other big screen things...
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
If i was interested in gaming i would visit that section of the forum, how is gaming relevant here, so please try keep the discussion relevant to projectors' movies and HDR on projectors, i have no interest in discussing gaming, im not a teenager.


It's relevant to the discussion of resolution. Gaming is one of the biggest forms of entertainment media which has pushed resolution and HDR forwards.

Also, gaming has transcended being for children, as evidenced by the revenues and the age profile of people that now play them. I'd try and calm down with your condescending tones.
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
It's relevant to the discussion of resolution. Gaming is one of the biggest forms of entertainment media which has pushed resolution and HDR forwards.

Also, gaming has transcended being for children, as evidenced by the revenues and the age profile of people that now play them. I'd try and calm down with your condescending tones.
Still how is it relevant in this thread?
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
been enjoying 4k on gaming via first xbox one x and since more lately xbox series X... there is much to enjoy... ms flight simulator is something amazing as is forza or even the new f1 game :) love it :D ps curiously though i can play on either our oled or projector ... i dont seem to hanker as much for screen size with gaming as do for movies, sports, concerts and other big screen things...


I agree TBH. I do love a big screen but a smaller one is just as good as you can see the HUD elements better, more comfort, no neck discomfort.


Still how is it relevant in this thread?
The topic/conversation had moved/veered onto 1080p vs 4K. In this instance, video games are the best form of media to easily illustrate the advantages for a move to higher resolutions (not all films are created equally).
 

Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
I agree TBH. I do love a big screen but a smaller one is just as good as you can see the HUD elements better, more comfort, no neck discomfort.



The topic/conversation had moved/veered onto 1080p vs 4K. In this instance, video games are the best form of media to easily illustrate the advantages for a move to higher resolutions (not all films are created equally).
If you want to illustrate the difference, then use your projector and your gaming setup, snap a few closeups/ pixel peeping photos of 1080P vs 4K content, and share what scaler you use.
 

ask4me2

Active Member
Its actually quite simple for video games. You can just change the resolution whilst in-game on a PC from 1080p to 4K and back and use your own eyes to judge.

I can tell you that the difference is BIGGER than that video makes it out to be. I have the exact game so can toggle between resolutions easy.

But as Strids did allude to, its all about the resolution the content is mastered in. Videogames take full advantage of every pixel. Not all films do dependant on how they are mastered, if they are a filmed with a 4K, 8K, 16K DI etc.
How do you actually change the resolution whilst in-game on a PC.?

That display device you are using has its own native pixel resolution, so if you feed a 1080p signal to a 4K screen and do not upscale the source to 4k, the 1080p picture will only take op 1/4 of the screen area.

I do not know enough about how typical computer game frames are generated/made from the ground up, where all the extra "details" between the different resolutions are coming from etc.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
How do you actually change the resolution whilst in-game on a PC.?

That display device you are using has its own native pixel resolution, so if you feed a 1080p signal to a 4K screen and do not upscale the source to 4k, the 1080p picture will only take op 1/4 of the screen area.

I do not know enough about how typical computer game frames are generated/made from the ground up, where all the extra "details" between the different resolutions are coming from etc.


You click settings, and then click resolution and you can change it to any resolution you want which your display supports. This is in the game.

It will then send a signal to the projector and if it supports that resolution, it changes to that. If it doesnt, it blanks out the screen and goes back to a supported resolution.

If you want it to 1:1 pixel map, it can do that too but as you said, it will have black bars everywhere.

If you go to PC gaming forum here I’m sure someone can explain it much better than I can. :)
 

Furnace Inferno

Well-known Member
I don’t think comparing games is like for like because rendering at 4K vs. Rendering at 1080p is not the same as a film mastered in 4K and one mastered in 2K. The former has a max starting resolution of 1080p whilst the later are taken from much higher resolutions which already negates some of the negatives of the lower resolution.

A more like for like comparison is a 4K image vs the 4K image downscaled to 1080p with something like DSR.

You also need to factor in filters which soften the image or modern AA techniques which do the same through temporal sampling which makes higher resolutions more noticeable than they would otherwise be.

I just think there are too many factors with rendered video games to attribute it all to resolution and in movies it’s much harder to see. That’s before we even factor in the terrible motion resolution of most modern displays which can’t even resolve anywhere close to 1080p let alone 4K!
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I don’t think comparing games is like for like because rendering at 4K vs. Rendering at 1080p is not the same as a film mastered in 4K and one mastered in 2K. The former has a max starting resolution of 1080p whilst the later are taken from much higher resolutions which already negates some of the negatives of the lower resolution.

A more like for like comparison is a 4K image vs the 4K image downscaled to 1080p with something like DSR.

You also need to factor in filters which soften the image or modern AA techniques which do the same through temporal sampling which makes higher resolutions more noticeable than they would otherwise be.

I just think there are too many factors with rendered video games to attribute it all to resolution and in movies it’s much harder to see. That’s before we even factor in the terrible motion resolution of most modern displays which can’t even resolve anywhere close to 1080p let alone 4K!
In a computer you control the AA and temporal sampling. You literally control nearly everything via settings so can change just the resolution.

It’s a great tool for show casing the advantages of higher resolutions

Films are crap for showing the advantages of resolutions because half of them ‘remastered’ don’t have the detail to do the resolution justice due to how they are films and the limitations of filming at the time.

Comparing a 4K blu ray to a 1080p is a waste of time given the changes then can make from an artistic purpose for a re release :(

Sometimes they re colour grade the film like Batman begins
 
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Stridsvognen

Well-known Member
In a computer you control the AA and temporal sampling. You literally control nearly everything via settings so can change just the resolution.

It’s a great tool for show casing the advantages of higher resolutions

Films are crap for showing the advantages of resolutions because half of them ‘remastered’ don’t have the detail to do the resolution justice due to how they are films and the limitations of filming at the time.

Comparing a 4K blu ray to a 1080p is a waste of time given the changes then can make from an artistic purpose for a re release :(

Sometimes they re colour grade the film like Batman begins
It is what it is, and most of us watch movies, so comparing 1080P SDR to 4K HDR is what we got. If you like the 4K HDR grading and pumped up look, thats great, lot of people do, i like the 1080P upscaled to 4K on a good native 4K projector, or just simply keep it 1080P on a 1080P projector, and then calibrate the sh*t out of it, so i get as close to what was directors intend. There is no getting that with 4K HDR on a projector.
 

Furnace Inferno

Well-known Member
In a computer you control the AA and temporal sampling. You literally control nearly everything via settings so can change just the resolution.

It’s a great tool for show casing the advantages of higher resolutions

Films are crap for showing the advantages of resolutions because half of them ‘remastered’ don’t have the detail to do the resolution justice due to how they are films and the limitations of filming at the time.

Comparing a 4K blu ray to a 1080p is a waste of time given the changes then can make from an artistic purpose for a re release :(
Old films on film stock are actually up to 16K equivalent in resolution, much higher than digital films which vary from 2K up to I think about 5.6K on the Aria Red although it’s been a while since I kept up with that so it’s probably moved on now.

Anyway my point still stands that rendering at X resolution vs. Filming at X resolution aren’t comparable because games need higher resolutions and/or AA to fix inherent rendering issues which real life doesn’t like aliasing/shimmering

When you compare a CGI movie like Pixar for example which are mostly rendered at 2K to a video game, the video game doesn’t look higher resolution in say Kingdom Hearts 3 at 4K to Toy Story 2 or 3 at 2K because the AA solutions are so much better that the increased resolution is irrelevant when they are super sampling from higher resolutions with a temporal element.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
It is what it is, and most of us watch movies, so comparing 1080P SDR to 4K HDR is what we got. If you like the 4K HDR grading and pumped up look, thats great, lot of people do, i like the 1080P upscaled to 4K on a good native 4K projector, or just simply keep it 1080P on a 1080P projector, and then calibrate the sh*t out of it, so i get as close to what was directors intend. There is no getting that with 4K HDR on a projector.

I agree. I think HDR on a projector is a guessing game at best. Even on TVs, its not great as some LCD panels really can't do it justice re: black floor or even high nit output.

Old films on film stock are actually up to 16K equivalent in resolution, much higher than digital films which vary from 2K up to I think about 5.6K on the Aria Red although it’s been a while since I kept up with that so it’s probably moved on now.

Anyway my point still stands that rendering at X resolution vs. Filming at X resolution aren’t comparable because games need higher resolutions and/or AA to fix inherent rendering issues which real life doesn’t like aliasing/shimmering

When you compare a CGI movie like Pixar for example which are mostly rendered at 2K to a video game, the video game doesn’t look higher resolution in say Kingdom Hearts 3 at 4K to Toy Story 2 or 3 at 2K because the AA solutions are so much better that the increased resolution is irrelevant when they are super sampling from higher resolutions with a temporal element.

When did I state they are comparable? lol

I'm stating that video games (e.g. on PC where you control every single factor via settings - NOT consoles) are a great showcase for the benefits of 4K resolution consistently whilst in films, its very very variable based on a multitude of factors, some of which you've mentioned.

Incase you don't know how PC gaming works, here is an example of a PC games' settings menu.



Just so you can see where I'm coming form.


We're probably going massively off topic and people keep quoting my posts, arguing against a point I've never made so might be best to leave it here as its confusing me a lot. Not sure if something is being lost in misinterpretation.
 

Furnace Inferno

Well-known Member
I agree. I think HDR on a projector is a guessing game at best. Even on TVs, its not great as some LCD panels really can't do it justice re: black floor or even high nit output.



When did I state they are comparable? lol

I'm stating that video games (e.g. on PC where you control every single factor via settings - NOT consoles) are a great showcase for the benefits of 4K resolution consistently whilst in films, its very very variable based on a multitude of factors, some of which you've mentioned.

Incase you don't know how PC gaming works, here is an example of a PC games' settings menu.



Just so you can see where I'm coming form.


We're probably going massively off topic and people keep quoting my posts, arguing against a point I've never made so might be best to leave it here as its confusing me a lot. Not sure if something is being lost in misinterpretation.
I have a PC so I’m well aware of the graphics settings and what they all pertain too, I just disagree that it shows the benefits of higher resolutions across the board. For current games yes because of reasons beyond resolution was my point.

The reason I brought up AA specifically is because the modern AA that’s built into most engines is Temporal (and why SLI/Crossfire disappeared), Unreal 4 (and 5) as an example it’s part of the engine because with it off it has major issues with aliasing and white speckles. However it introduces a lot of blur into the picture and exaggerates the difference between resolutions which is what I was explaining badly and why they now provide a sharpening filter in-game.

Supersampling AA (SSAA) which was used previously where it downsampled from higher resolutions and isn’t used anymore because it’s too computationally expensive, actually made lower resolutions look sharper and more detailed without needing to output at a higher resolution and that’s why I’m saying the rendering resolution is a bigger factor with games not just output.

Look at consoles using upscaling to 4K from slightly lower resolutions, they don’t look as sharp as the PC version running natively but they are both 4K outputs.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I have a PC so I’m well aware of the graphics settings and what they all pertain too, I just disagree that it shows the benefits of higher resolutions across the board. For current games yes because of reasons beyond resolution was my point.

The reason I brought up AA specifically is because the modern AA that’s built into most engines is Temporal (and why SLI/Crossfire disappeared), Unreal 4 (and 5) as an example it’s part of the engine because with it off it has major issues with aliasing and white speckles. However it introduces a lot of blur into the picture and exaggerates the difference between resolutions which is what I was explaining badly and why they now provide a sharpening filter in-game.

Supersampling AA (SSAA) which was used previously where it downsampled from higher resolutions and isn’t used anymore because it’s too computationally expensive, actually made lower resolutions look sharper and more detailed without needing to output at a higher resolution and that’s why I’m saying the rendering resolution is a bigger factor with games not just output.

Look at consoles using upscaling to 4K from slightly lower resolutions, they don’t look as sharp as the PC version running natively but they are both 4K outputs.



I'm going to keep it simple here because we're going even more off topic not just from the thread but from when the point I'm making. If you boot up Horizon Zero Dawn, Red Dead 2 or Rise of the Tomb Raider on your PC, set it to 1080p, then move to 4K with the same settings, can you notice how much better the 4K version looks?

Consoles are totally different to PC which is why I don't think they're a good illustration as they bring in confounding factors (optimisations developers have used to hit an FPS target). They use checkerboard rendering and their 4K output is in signal alone a lot of the time. Normally the content isn't and is 1440p or even lower. They also can darastically change settings and texture resolution dependant on which setting we use (performance mode or visual fidelity mode in most games released on the new gen consoles).

In terms of bringing up AA, SSAA.. we can talk about this forever but its moving away from the simple point I'm making re: video games taking advantage of higher resolutions more than films (generally).

If you can't see the difference in the above games 1080p vs 4K using the same settings on PC; one of us had eye sight or one of us has super human eye sight :D
 
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Furnace Inferno

Well-known Member
I'm going to keep it simple here because we're going even more off topic not just from the thread but from when the point I'm making. If you boot up Horizon Zero Dawn, Red Dead 2 or Rise of the Tomb Raider on your PC, set it to 1080p, then move to 4K with the same settings, can you notice how much better the 4K version looks?

Consoles are totally different to PC which is why I don't think they're a good illustration as they bring in confounding factors (optimisations developers have used to hit an FPS target). They use checkerboard rendering and their 4K output is in signal alone a lot of the time. Normally the content isn't and is 1440p or even lower. They also can darastically change settings and texture resolution dependant on which setting we use (performance mode or visual fidelity mode in most games released on the new gen consoles).

In terms of bringing up AA, SSAA.. we can talk about this forever but its moving away from the simple point I'm making re: video games taking advantage of higher resolutions more than films (generally).

If you can't see the difference in the above games 1080p vs 4K using the same settings on PC; one of us had eye sight or one of us has super human eye sight :D
I’m understanding what you are saying but I don’t think you are understanding the point I’m trying to make. You are simplifying it into resolution alone when if you rendered at 4K and downsampled to 1080p you’d get a lot of the benefits to picture quality as you would on the 4K image which is nothing to do with the output resolution.

As such the only way to compare resolution is to take out rendering differences and compare downsampled 4K @ 1080p to 4K direct at which point the difference is much smaller.
 

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