HDR benefits for projector

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Its likely more your streaming device that is a problem, im still using the OPPO 103D for 1080P Netflix streaming, it looks very close to blu ray quality, not so much if i use other devices, 4K generally looks horrible, as it needs to be tonemapped, and is full of highlight sparkles/ grain.
The trick is to only subscribe to the 1080P if you subscribe to the 4K there is no way to get the right 1080P SDR stream on most new streaming devices..
I haven’t used an oppo but I’ve used:

Windows 10 pc
Netflix native app Panasonic tv
Netflix native app LG tv
Amazon fire stick
Apple TV
Apple fire stick max

All have inferior 1080p streams over 4K

Can u post the bitrate and number for ur 1080p steam compared to 4K as I’m interested in this ?

I can tell the quality different on my 65’’ TVs forget the projectors !
 

turnpike

Standard Member
Whilst I agree with the comments about 1080p SDR being "good enough" on projectors and maybe preferable to HDR, in many cases won't this mean you can't access the Atmos audio because streaming apps only send that along with 4k hdr? Or are you using an AV receiver which is recognised as 4k then downscaling?
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
I’m looking forward to realising the gulf between 1080P and 4K streaming when my internet speed gets out of the dark ages. LOL
 

Stridsvognen

Distinguished Member
I haven’t used an oppo but I’ve used:

Windows 10 pc
Netflix native app Panasonic tv
Netflix native app LG tv
Amazon fire stick
Apple TV
Apple fire stick max

All have inferior 1080p streams over 4K

Can u post the bitrate and number for ur 1080p steam compared to 4K as I’m interested in this ?

I can tell the quality different on my 65’’ TVs forget the projectors !
First what Netflix subscription do you have? You can not always quantify image quality with bitrate, there is also a lot to do with how the streaming device handles that data, all i know is i cant find 2 streaming devices that look the same, most importantly is not to subscribe to the 4K content if you want to stream 1080P, as the streamer will pick the highest resolution possible and downconvert it, and its not good at that, no good at all, you will want the real 1080P SDR stream.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
First what Netflix subscription do you have? You can not always quantify image quality with bitrate, there is also a lot to do with how the streaming device handles that data, all i know is i cant find 2 streaming devices that look the same, most importantly is not to subscribe to the 4K content if you want to stream 1080P, as the streamer will pick the highest resolution possible and downconvert it, and its not good at that, no good at all, you will want the real 1080P SDR stream.

I thought you prefer numbers Strids rather than subjective observations :D !

Are you just saying to your eyes, the 1080p stream looks similar to the 4K stream? Do you have both a 4K and 1080p subscription to compare?

I have a 4K UHD account but I did by mistake downgrade to a 1080p account and I could see the difference and hence checked, and it indeed was downgraded so I re-upgraded.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Whilst I agree with the comments about 1080p SDR being "good enough" on projectors and maybe preferable to HDR, in many cases won't this mean you can't access the Atmos audio because streaming apps only send that along with 4k hdr? Or are you using an AV receiver which is recognised as 4k then downscaling?


Atmos does seem to increasingly only be bundled with the 4K/HDR versions but streaming seems to be variable on this.
 

Stridsvognen

Distinguished Member
I thought you prefer numbers Strids rather than subjective observations :D !

Are you just saying to your eyes, the 1080p stream looks similar to the 4K stream? Do you have both a 4K and 1080p subscription to compare?

I have a 4K UHD account but I did by mistake downgrade to a 1080p account and I could see the difference and hence checked, and it indeed was downgraded so I re-upgraded.
Not home right now. So ill post the sdr calibration when i get home. Reason i prefer the sdr stream is that it takes less bandwith. Less processing. So i get no banding on oppo 103d netflix streaming. Cant say that about 4k streaming on apple tv4 or xbox x or lg oled. Would be fun to see your HDR calibration data. And yes i have subscribed to netflix 4K. How do you tonemap streaming HDR and how do you track BT2020?
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Not home right now. So ill post the sdr calibration when i get home. Reason i prefer the sdr stream is that it takes less bandwith. Less processing. So i get no banding on oppo 103d netflix streaming. Cant say that about 4k streaming on apple tv4 or xbox x or lg oled. Would be fun to see your HDR calibration data. And yes i have subscribed to netflix 4K. How do you tonemap streaming HDR and how do you track BT2020?

When talking about 1080p vs 4K stream, I'm talking about the PQ quality difference on a 65 inch OLED. Its just put on film maker mode, no professional calibration. If I can tell the change in sharpness re: a 65'' display, of course its going to be more visible on bigger display where PPI is lower.

Btw I want to be clear here, I am NOT stating 1080p SDR stream vs 2160p HDR stream. I am talking 1080p SDR stream vs 4K SDR stream. No point talking HDR projection because as I've stated countless times, I think HDR on projection is a mess so don't want to get drawn into that never ending argument lol... Not sure if there was a miscommunication somewhere so bolded the above.

I can tell the PQ difference 1080p vs 4K in sharpness. Its night and day. Are you really stating you can't tell the difference between a 1080p and 4K stream?

Can you tell the difference between a 1080p video game a 4K one out of interest? Say a PS4 vs a PS4 Pro in a videogame?
 
Last edited:

Stridsvognen

Distinguished Member
When talking about 1080p vs 4K stream, I'm talking about the PQ quality difference on a 65 inch OLED. Its just put on film maker mode, no professional calibration. If I can tell the change in sharpness re: a 65'' display, of course its going to be more visible on bigger display where PPI is lower.

No point talking HDR projection because as I've stated countless times, I think HDR on projection is a mess so don't want to get drawn into that never ending argument lol...

I can tell the PQ difference 1080p vs 4K in sharpness. Its night and day. Are you really stating you can't tell the difference between a 1080p and 4K stream?

Can you tell the difference between a 1080p video game a 4K one out of interest? Say a PS4 vs a PS4 Pro in a videogame?
Sure i can see a difference between 1080p sdr and 4k hdr streaming. The 1080p is almost blu ray quality. The 4k is always a mess as tonemapping is a mess.
Im refering to projector setup as we are discussing in the hdr on projector thread. Dont see what relevanse oled have here.
Where can you stream 4k sdr?
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Sure i can see a difference between 1080p sdr and 4k hdr streaming. The 1080p is almost blu ray quality. The 4k is always a mess as tonemapping is a mess.
Im refering to projector setup as we are discussing in the hdr on projector thread. Dont see what relevanse oled have here.


Strids, I edited my post.

"Btw I want to be clear here, I am NOT stating 1080p SDR stream vs 2160p HDR stream. I am talking 1080p SDR stream vs 4K SDR stream. No point talking HDR projection because as I've stated countless times, I think HDR on projection is a mess so don't want to get drawn into that never ending argument lol... Not sure if there was a miscommunication somewhere so bolded the above."

When I discussed 4K stream, I was NOT discussing the 4K HDR vs 1080p SDR stream. I meant 4K SDR vs 1080p SDR stream (Netflix gives this option).

FYI and for the record, I personally prefer 1080p SDR stream over 4K HDR stream because the tone mapping is a mess, especially on my Epson 9300 in the lougnge which doesn't have any DTM and I have to rely on the 2 crap tone curves Epson provide on the machine. Looks horrible. Thats why I bought a firestick max.. to disable HDR.
 

Stridsvognen

Distinguished Member
Strids, I edited my post.

"Btw I want to be clear here, I am NOT stating 1080p SDR stream vs 2160p HDR stream. I am talking 1080p SDR stream vs 4K SDR stream. No point talking HDR projection because as I've stated countless times, I think HDR on projection is a mess so don't want to get drawn into that never ending argument lol... Not sure if there was a miscommunication somewhere so bolded the above."

When I discussed 4K stream, I was NOT discussing the 4K HDR vs 1080p SDR stream. I meant 4K SDR vs 1080p SDR stream (Netflix gives this option).

FYI and for the record, I personally prefer 1080p SDR stream over 4K HDR stream because the tone mapping is a mess, especially on my Epson 9300 in the lougnge which doesn't have any DTM and I have to rely on the 2 crap tone curves Epson provide on the machine. Looks horrible. Thats why I bought a firestick max.. to disable HDR.
Where can you stream 4K sdr?
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member

Stridsvognen

Distinguished Member
Netflix but not all shows
So thats not really a option. Ill say 1080p blu ray upscaled to 4k vs 4k bluray via Oppo 203 on a Jvc N series. There is no more details on the 4k disc when pixel peeping.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
So thats not really a option. Ill say 1080p blu ray upscaled to 4k vs 4k bluray via Oppo 203 on a Jvc N series. There is no more details on the 4k disc when pixel peeping.


1080p disc vs 4K disc I agree with you mostly but its obviously dependant on the disc.

1080p stream for 4K stream I can't agree. As I said, to my naked eye on a 65'' OLED the 1080p streams look noticeably more soft than the 4K streams. The reason I'm mentioning the OLED is its a smaller screen so if I can notice it on a 65'' screen, I feel the sharpness difference should be exacerbated on a larger display.

Can you really not tell a difference at all between them? Just subjective naked eye observation.
 

Stridsvognen

Distinguished Member
1080p disc vs 4K disc I agree with you mostly but its obviously dependant on the disc.

1080p stream for 4K stream I can't agree. As I said, to my naked eye on a 65'' OLED the 1080p streams look noticeably more soft than the 4K streams. The reason I'm mentioning the OLED is its a smaller screen so if I can notice it on a 65'' screen, I feel the sharpness difference should be exacerbated on a larger display.

Can you really not tell a difference at all between them?
Sure i can the 4k stream is more noisy. Might be what you define as sharper. The Hdr might also add a element of percived skarpness. Its not for me. Not much streaming is. Just watched Bad Boys on the Jvc RS 600 last night streamed from my Oppo 103D. In 1080p. Looked good. Sound is what it is on streaming.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Sure i can the 4k stream is more noisy. Might be what you define as sharper. The Hdr might also add a element of percived skarpness. Its not for me. Not much streaming is. Just watched Bad Boys on the Jvc RS 600 last night streamed from my Oppo 103D. In 1080p. Looked good. Sound is what it is on streaming.


I'm sure it did look good in 1080p. Just maybe 4K on a JVC NX or NZ in a 4K/SDR might look a bit sharper ;)
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member

Stridsvognen

Distinguished Member

Can you tell the difference between L&R in terms of resolution there for this video game?
Yes. Nown downscale the 4k one to 1080p and see if you can tell a difference. Its all about the mastering. Not the format
 

ask4me2

Active Member
I find Video examples like that a little hard to use in this way.

First of all, what happens with the video qualiy when uploaded to youtube?
I do not know if the best youtube quality is identical to the original file uploaded.

Then I guess we need to start with choosing the 4k option in youtube, to actually get the 4K resolution version.
Then a 4K display shod be used when watching, but how do we correctly view a vertical split video in 1080p vs 2160p to get 1:1 pixel mapping on 4K display?
Then we have the viewing distance. Do we use a distance that corresponds to or favor a 1080p or a 4K resolution? o_O
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I find Video examples like that a little hard to use in this way.

First of all, what happens with the video qualiy when uploaded to youtube?
I do not know if the best youtube quality is identical to the original file uploaded.

Then I guess we need to start with choosing the 4k option in youtube, to actually get the 4K resolution version.
Then a 4K display shod be used when watching, but how do we correctly view a vertical split video in 1080p vs 2160p to get 1:1 pixel mapping on 4K display?
Then we have the viewing distance. Do we use a distance that corresponds to or favor a 1080p or a 4K resolution? o_O


Its actually quite simple for video games. You can just change the resolution whilst in-game on a PC from 1080p to 4K and back and use your own eyes to judge.

I can tell you that the difference is BIGGER than that video makes it out to be. I have the exact game so can toggle between resolutions easy.

But as Strids did allude to, its all about the resolution the content is mastered in. Videogames take full advantage of every pixel. Not all films do dependant on how they are mastered, if they are a filmed with a 4K, 8K, 16K DI etc.
 

Stridsvognen

Distinguished Member
Its actually quite simple for video games. You can just change the resolution whilst in-game on a PC from 1080p to 4K and back and use your own eyes to judge.

I can tell you that the difference is BIGGER than that video makes it out to be. I have the exact game so can toggle between resolutions easy.

But as Strids did allude to, its all about the resolution the content is mastered in. Videogames take full advantage of every pixel. Not all films do dependant on how they are mastered, if they are a filmed with a 4K, 8K, 16K DI etc.
With games i think its more that they lower details as you lower resolution, not that it could not look almost the same, but to save processing power, so i think video games is bad reference material.
 

Spigot

Active Member
Video bitrates for Netflix 1080p streams have averages that are typically between 3500-6000Kbps, with Amazon it's more likely to be 10,000Kbps. That's h264, excluding audio. Don't know about 4K bitrates.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
With games i think its more that they lower details as you lower resolution, not that it could not look almost the same, but to save processing power, so i think video games is bad reference material.

Hm.. PC gaming use exactly the same assets. It's literally just downscaling the resolution. Every parameter is under your control from anti aliasing to texture resolution to detail to shadow quality.

Video games are a GREAT reference for comparing the impact of resolution IMO because its a literal on/off switch with every single parameter the same. In films we can have so many confounding factors (e.g. colour grading).
 

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