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HDMI/DVD Query

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by homersan, May 26, 2004.

  1. homersan

    homersan
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    Hi all - first post here so bear with me.

    Currently having a debate with my cousin over the above issue.

    I am looking at buying a Pioneer PDP 434HDE with matching HDMI DVD player.

    He is saying its a total waste of money as it wont play DVD's at any better quality than a regular non HDMI set up.

    Is this true? Every review I have read states clearly that this set-up improves DVD performance massively.

    He is saying that DVDs are 720x360 resolution and I wont get any better picture than this be it HDMI or not until Blu-Ray discs are out.

    Please can you offer some advice. Clearly this is a big outlay and I want to make sure I am getting the best value for money.

    Thanks



    Homersan
     
  2. Brogan

    Brogan
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    You will get a huge difference of opinion on this.
    Some say HDMI is much better than component, others say not.

    I can't comment on whether there is a difference as I have not used my set-up in any other configuration but HDMI but then I didn't really buy it just because of HDMI so I'm happy.

    As is normal in these situations, only you can decide if it's worth it so I would recommend a test drive.
     
  3. mine

    mine
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    Its easy

    Stand in front of a Mac or PC with a good ATI grahiccard (all have VGA or DVI out) and switch from VGA to DVI

    Regards

    armin
     
  4. Brogan

    Brogan
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    Except he's going to be using a DVD player as the source, not an HCPC so it's not a very useful test in his case...
     
  5. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    With certain LCD monitors that will make the picture worse rather than better.
     
  6. rscott4563

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    Pal has 576 vertical lines, NTSC has 480 vertical lines.

    The reason for going to DVI/HDMI is to remove a digital to analogue conversion from the chain between source and display. Your friend is absolutely right in that HDMI (any digital connection in fact) won't make dvds look better than they are, ie it wont improve the resolution of the image.
    But saying that HDMI wont look any better than an analogue connection is assuming that the analogue connection is perfect, in that the D/A, A/D conversions which must take place will not degrade the signal or introduce any artifacts, this just wont be the case.
    Basically HDMI or DVI has the ability to give a better picture than analogue(cleaner, sharper, less artifacts etc..) if it is implemented properly, this of course is the big question.

    So in short a properly implemented digital connection will be better than an analogue connection, but a poorly implemented digital connection will not be as good as a good quality analogue connection. The implementation must be done properly in both the source and the display device.

    There is plenty of info out there on the benefits and pitfalls of the new digital connection technology as well as the analogue options, you might want to check here and here.

    Cheers

    Ryan
     
  7. samhain

    samhain
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    I agree, the less processing of any electrical component should potentially leave things cleaner and free from artifacts. HDMI is still in it's infancy but major manufacturers are now jumping on the wagon. I think it has some validity but as was said the execution has to be good from source to screen.

    If it is then it will be very good indeed.
     
  8. quall

    quall
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    I'am using the DV-868avi DVD player hook up to my Plasma TV , and I have tried them both(HDMI & Component). It is cleanly for me that the HDMI connection have better quality picture than any analogue connection on my Pioneer 434HDE. Go get one for youself, I'am sure u won't regard. :smashin: :smashin: :smashin:
     
  9. rscott4563

    rscott4563
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    But you are only comparing the hdmi vs component implementation of your specific dvd player and screen, obviously you should go with whatever option gives you the best result, but don't take this as an indication that hdmi from your 886 is better than any analogue connection on any dvd player, or that the hdmi on your 886 is the best you can get either..

    Ryan :thumbsup:
     
  10. mine

    mine
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    This is what I intended to say with my simple statement above -
    an easy way to test it for your own
    switch from a VGA to a DVI source with a good TFT monitor and you will see the difference immediately and if your monitor looks worse - something is wrong
    never saw that an additional Digital-Analog Conversion made a better picture -
    same will be with every good DVD Player with DVI or HDMI out.
    Additionally if you work with HDTV or with own 25p footage coming from a professional camcorder it will be much more obvious . You have no massive 3,5 Mbit
    DVD compression - its 50 Mbit. And a digital connection SDI or DVI is a simple... must.
    Additionally I believe we will not discuss this in 3 or 4 years - you certainly know why.
     
  11. Brogan

    Brogan
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    There may be other DVD players that are better than the 868 but are you suggesting that there are better outputs on the 868 than HDMI?
    Care to expand on that?
     
  12. rscott4563

    rscott4563
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    I was meaning to say two things, though I may have put it badly.. :blush:

    Firstly the HDMI output of the 886 could be beaten by the analogue output of other players (ie just cause its digital its not always better)

    Secondly the HDMI output of the 886 wont be the best HDMI output of any dvd player, some may do digital better (just pointing out that not all digital connections are equal)

    Ryan :thumbsup:
     
  13. Brogan

    Brogan
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    Ah, OK, see what you mean.
    Yes I agree there may be other players which have better analogue and/or digital (HDMI) outputs than the 868.
    For the price it's currently going for though (less than £800), the 868 is pretty good value for money and stacks up well against other similarly specced players.
    It's also a good match for the current 434/504 HDE which is why I went for it.
     
  14. rscott4563

    rscott4563
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    I wasn't trying to diss the 886 in any way, I was more trying to make a statement about the digital/analogue debate in general. Some people are of the opinion that digital is simply better than analogue in every application and is just all about 0's and 1's, this is simply not the case.

    As for me I'm going down the SDI -> video processor with DVI/RGBHV -> display route, so I'll soon have some results of my comparisons of analogue (done well) vs digital (done well)

    Obviously in the future digital is the way forward, thats not even up for debate, its just a wait until they get it working spot... Bring on HD-DVD with 1920x1080p 12bit HDMI :thumbsup: :D :smoke:
     
  15. YS-YS

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    Plasma - Anologue
    TFT - Anologue
    CRT - Anologue
    DLP - Digital

    somewhere that Digital DVD has to be converted into an anologue signal. (people with dlp projectors or dlp rear projection displays with digital inputs ignore this)
    now you can let your DVD player convert it into an anologue signal as it has been designed to do, or you can let you plasma do it.

    Pioneer plasmas (434 / 504) do look better with HDMI than with any anologue input, but if you compare the pioneer with HDMI to a good Panasonic or Fujitsu with Component (Prog scan) then you might be surprised with the results.

    HDMI is based on component but with the limitations of any digital format.
    the main reason for the move to digital interfaces is to attempt to stop copying of the material, rather than to improve anything for the consumer.
     
  16. rscott4563

    rscott4563
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    Somewhat agree, however to call LCD or plasma analogue in the same manner as CRT is a bit mis-leading as they address individual pixels in a digital manner, yes the illumination of the pixels is an analogue process, but you could argue that in DLP PJ's the lamp is an analogue light source (so colour temperature will not be 100% uniform). And don't forget that important D/A to A/D conversion that takes place between the display and our eyes and our eyes to our brain.. ;)


    Going back to my comment about implementation, this could mearly be down to a poor impementation of the analogue connections of the plasma, infact some have raised the question of have Pioneer purposefully held back on the analogue outputs and inputs of their latest products to show a greater improvent when using HDMI?? Just a thought..


    Not true HDMI can be RGB at 8-bit, YCbCr at 8-bit in a 4:4:4 format (i.e. Chroma and Luma at same resolution), or it can be YCbCr at 12-bit in 4:2:2 format. The vertical rate can be SD interlaced or progressive. Obviously the 4:2:2 YCbCr format will be optimal for MPEG sources such as DVDs as this is whats produced by the MPEG decoder and so means that no further colourspace conversions or chroma upsampling has to take place. Whether or not the HDMI ouput of a DVD player uses this option is another matter, if it uses RGB 4:4:4 then the DVD player is carrying out at least two conversion processes and how well it will do these is questionable, chroma error anyone..
     
  17. mine

    mine
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    yes and now -without hdcp :devil:
     
  18. mine

    mine
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    4:2:2 ?

    I always had the opinion its stored as 4:2:0 -just like DV (in the Pal world)


    armin
    :devil:
     
  19. rscott4563

    rscott4563
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    Notice I'd specifically said 4:2:2 is what is produced by the MPEG decoder and not what is stored on disc.. :lesson: :devil:

    Yes its stored on the disc as 4:2:0 (Chroma half res in horizontal and vertical) but the MPEG decoder in dvd players upscales chroma (this is what leads to the chroma bug), with an RGB output the chroma is upconverted to full-res vertically in the format 4:2:2, some dvd players will output 4:4:4 (component, DVI or HDMI, which is - supposedly - Chroma upconverted to full res, vertically and horizontally).

    4:2:0 to 4:2:2 conversion is always done by the DVD player. It is difficult to do it right, and most do it poorly. And of course it gets even worse if the DVD player has the CUE bug. Upconverting to to 4:4:4 for component output poses a similar set of issues to the DVD player.

    Ryan
     
  20. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Homersan

    Your cousins right and wrong - sure Standard Definition DVD is not as good as what was recorded on the Broadcast or Film camera but its still fairly good and using the HDMI connection between a Pioneer DV-868AVi and the PDP-434HDE makes for a great picture.

    Utilising the HDMI all Digital connection produces the best looking results with this combination - and keeps Hollywood happy as the Digital connection is heavily Copy Protected.

    Also keep in mind the DV-868AVi is a great 'sounding' player and if you partner it with a Pioneer VSX-AX5i you can take advantage of the i-Link with your multi channel music discs,

    Blue Ray and other High Definition standards will appear in the next year or so and you may end up replacing the DV-868AVi; though not for a while yet I'm sure.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  21. Duncan G

    Duncan G
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    The only way to find out without first buying the plasma is to go to a showroom for a demo.
     

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