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HDMI and audio and HDCP.

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs Forum' started by JetJockey, Oct 20, 2005.

  1. JetJockey

    JetJockey
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    Hi all.

    Here are two corkers?

    If feeding a signal to the new Panny PHD8 series via it's HDMI module (which I believe is Ver 1.1). How do you get audio to the panel??? :confused: I know (think) Ver 1.1 allows the carraige of audio signals up the HDMI lead also. But how do you get them into the Lead if you are using a Lumagen scaler (which only has DVI) between the source and the Panel?? :eek: (Told you it was a corker)!

    Also: -

    If using the same scenario above, how does the HDCP handshaking etc work, as I understand (possibly incorrectly) that DVI does not support HDCP? :confused: :thumbsdow

    Regards, Gerald. :)
     
  2. chedmaster

    chedmaster
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    DVI can support HDCP. You can't directly add audio to HDMI, as its digital not analogue, the source has to support it. HD DVD etc will bring this (i don't know if upconverting players add audio to HDMI or not? Even if they do, you would lose it going through DVI) :)
     
  3. JetJockey

    JetJockey
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    Thanks Chedmaster.

    This raises an interesting point though. Assume I want to take both an audio and video feed from say, a DVD player, through a Lumagen, then on to the Panny via It's HDMI input module.

    Then It must be the case that I get no audio from the Panel with the HDMI input selected. I have just studied the HDMI input module for the PHD8 and it does not sport a seperate audio input connection! :eek:

    Sooooooo...... It would appear, that unless I use a scaler with HDMI switching, I am stuffed (assuming an HDMI Ver1.1 output on the source device (New HD Sky+ or DVD Player)) :confused:

    Thanks, Gerald.
     
  4. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Hello JetJockey

    DVI and HDMI - both of these offer Digital Video connectivity/transport.

    HDMI additionally has the ability to transport Stereo and Multi-channel audio.

    For Video HDMI and DVI are pretty much interchangeable - though you do have to consider High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) where you have a source that invokes HDCP on Commercial Discs and Content Streams.

    An HDMI equipped source will always Invoke HDCP on Commercial (Copyrighted) Discs and Broadcast Streams - though the same Source can playback and output non encrypted video if the Disc or Broadcast stream doesn't trigger the HDCP encryption.

    DVI equipped Sources may or may not be HDCP compliant - if they are they too will initiate the HDCP encryption if the Disc or Broadcast stream requires it.

    HDMI equipped Displays always include the relevant HDCP 'Key' to enable playback from an HDCP encrypted signal and equally an HDMI equipped Display will play back non encrypted video signals.

    DVI equipped Displays may or may not be HDCP compliant - those that are will be fine with both HDCP and non HDCP video signals and those that aren't wont play back HDCP encrypted signals.

    A Lumagen Video Processor is equipped with HDCP compliant Input and Output DVI sockets so can Input/Process and Output HDCP and non HDCP signals - if the incoming signal includes HDCP encryption it will automatically be re encrypted when its Output by the Lumagen (post processing).

    If you have an HDMI equipped Source going to a Lumagen and then on to an HDMI equipped Display you would use HDMI to DVI cables on both sides of the Lumagen - though keep in mind DVI is Video only so you do have a problem if you want to retain Stereo Audio from source through to Display and there is no Stereo Audio Input alongside the HDMI Input on the Display.

    With a PHD8 It may be better to consider the DVI Board in the Display as it has a separate 3.5mm Stereo Audio Input alongside the HDCP compliant DVI socket so you can connect to a Stereo Output on your source.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  5. JetJockey

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    Hi Joe

    All very clear, Thanks a lot.

    Unfortunately this has thrown up a bit of a mare. I often used to like watching my plasma with all the other AV machinery switched off. Sometimes, after a long day, the plasma audio was perfectly adequate.

    It would appear that if I want to watch something from the new HD Sky+ box in the future, and that material is HDCP protected, I would have to switch the A/V system on to be able to get any sound!! :eek: This is far from ideal. :suicide: If I plump for a DVI input module and run a seperate audio cable that will work fine. untill I try and watch a HDCP protected source when I will then get no picture. :oops: I suppose we are then into the land of the HDCP strippers. Heaven only knows how much longer they will be successful. What on earth are Panasonic doing supplying a HDMI input board without an additional audio connector?

    How is everybody else getting around this, or aren't they?

    Will the new Skybox sport both DVI and HDMI output? and will the HDMI output carry Audio?

    I am having to stop and think about this. :confused:
     
  6. Joe Fernand

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    Hello JetJockey

    The SKY HD box will be unique if it switches off every other Audio Output when Outputting an HDCP stream via its HDMI socket!

    Every HDMI player/source I know of that's HDCP compliant keeps the Stereo and Optical/Coaxial Digital audio Outputs active when playing back copy protected discs; otherwise folk with Projectors and Displays that don't include in-built or powered loudspeakers would be stuffed.

    I don't see this as a Show Stopper for you.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  7. JetJockey

    JetJockey
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    Hi Joe

    What you say is true, but I would suffer with the opposite problem.

    That is:-

    Even if the Sky box leaves all other audio outputs on, they can't be fed into the Panny plasma whilst using the HDMI input for Video! This would force me to have an AV amp switched on whilst using the HDMI input on the Plasma. This is obviously not acceptable (to me).

    If we fit a DVI input board instead, this would not support HDCP handshaking and would result in no picture if HDCP material is being sourced.

    Correct me if I am missing something here. I would love to think that there is an easy answer. I am led to believe though, that HDCP strippers carry no guarantee that they will continue to work in the future.

    Many thanks, Gerald.
     
  8. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Hello JetJockey

    The DVI Board IS HDCP compliant - and includes the all important 3.5mm Stereo Audio Input :)

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  9. JetJockey

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    Dohh! Dohh! Dohh! Dohh!................. :suicide:

    Why didn't somebody tell me that.

    It's all your fault Joe (for the lack of somebody else to blame). :mad:

    I could have sworn that the PHD8 brochure only lists the HDMI board as being HDCP compliant. In fact I'm 99.9% sure. In fact I'm just off to check now. :rtfm:

    Looks as if we have a plan. :clap: :party: :party:

    Just off to bed to catch some zzz's :boring: Up at 0430 for an Edinburgh followed by Malaga. Should be rattling the tiles on your roof Joe by about
    0745, right in the middle of your cornflakes! :eek:

    Regards, Gerald.
     
  10. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Hello Gerald

    I'll tie an 8 Series brochure to a kite and fly it over the house - open at Page 8 where it says DVI-D w/HDCP on the DVI board spec :)

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  11. JetJockey

    JetJockey
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    Bugger.

    The brochure is exactly as Joe says. It confirms the DVI socket is HDCP
    compliant. :oops:

    Must have been the small Japanese print. Couldn't possibly have been my fault. :devil:

    Unreserved apologies to Joe.

    Must admit though, if the DVI socket is HDCP compliant, it rather undermines the value of the HDMI socket on the plasma. Unless I suppose, you have an HDMI switching scaler and a couple of HDMI sources, and I suppose I have just answered my own question really! :rotfl:

    Gerald. :)

    P.S. Now which end of the aircraft do we sit again?
     
  12. MAW

    MAW
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    Try the little room at the back, with the red and green lights? The 'only' point of the HDMI board is a 1 cable connection to the screen for HDMI devices. The DVI board has all the same video features, plus a few more computer resolutions. Eliminating the audio also removes the 7m limit on cable length, DVI cables can work at up to 30m these days. From the cockpit to the galley, just about!
     
  13. Welwynnick

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    JetJockey, just for the record, there are some subtle generic advantages to HDMI, if not so much so with Panasonic. DVI is RGB video only, but HDMI also supports YCbCr component video. No great advantage there, but it does allow 10 bit instead of 8 bit video, and the colour difference components have greater bandwidth - 4:4:4 instead of 4:2:2, I think.

    Would the HDMI input really preclude audio from a DVI source? Surely the analogue audio will still work on the display, or can't you have HDMI video and RCA audio associated with the same source?

    MAW - I half recall there were lots of issues with Pany HDMI modules. I've read all the manuals, but I'm not clear. Are you saying that the DVI input accepts all the formats that the HDMI does, and then some?

    Nick
     
  14. MAW

    MAW
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    Yes on signal acceptance, that's right. But Panasonic have sorted out the HDMI, it's fine now, does exactly what it's supposed to do. On the PHD panasonics, you cannot assign audio ports, you get what comes on the card. HDMI has no other audio input, just like scart. It's built in after all. That's why Gerald needs the DVI card.
     
  15. Joe Fernand

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    welwynnick

    Just to be clear the TY-42TM6DB DVI Board works differently in the 8 Series Display than it does in the 7 Series Display.

    Installed in an 8 Series Display it works with 720P(50) and 1080i(50) - something it CANT do when installed in a 7 Series Display!!!

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  16. JetJockey

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    Red and Green lights? Dammit, nobody tells me anything, best leave them switched on at all times in case they mean something! :confused:

    Generally, at 0430 in the morning, If the girls can gently guide us to our seats, shove a spoon in our hands, and issue us coffee, we are doing quite well.

    At ten minutes to take off the dog is released to take it's seat behind us. From take off to landing the dogs job is to bite us if we touch anything. :eek:
    Our job is to feed the dog!! :D

    I am clued up on the galley, It's where the coffee and sandwhiches come from. If it doesn't work then an emergency is declared, the aircraft is grounded, and an engineer is called. Can't be too careful! :devil:

    So then, there is no difference between DVI and HDMI (other than Audio).
    Is that correct.

    Gerald.
     

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