HDMI 2.1 chips in AVRs and AV processors - transition to 40/48 Gbps, issues with video and graphics features

TechEnthu

Member
Yamaha - 4K/120 firmware update 1.65 is finally being rolled out for 40 Gbps signals. VRR feature is yet to arrive.
IMG_20220426_123337795_HDR~3.jpg
 

CaroleBaskin

Distinguished Member
@TechEnthu Thanks for the list. I was put on a multi-day search for definitive proof the Harman 2.1 offering ng is NOT limited to 40Gbps…

You've listed it under 2021/2022 - SECOND GEN HDMI 2.1 CHIPS - 24 and 40 Gbps

When in fact I’m told it’s 48Gbps, the same board as the Anthem in the later category:

2022/2023 - THIRD GEN HDMI 2.1 CHIPS - 48 Gbps

🤷‍♂️
 

TechEnthu

Member
@TechEnthu Thanks for the list. I was put on a multi-day search for definitive proof the Harman 2.1 offering ng is NOT limited to 40Gbps…

You've listed it under 2021/2022 - SECOND GEN HDMI 2.1 CHIPS - 24 and 40 Gbps

When in fact I’m told it’s 48Gbps, the same board as the Anthem in the later category:

2022/2023 - THIRD GEN HDMI 2.1 CHIPS - 48 Gbps

🤷‍♂️
That's interesting, as I could not find such confirmation for months. Are you able to post some links, so that I could update the OP?
 

CaroleBaskin

Distinguished Member
That's interesting, as I could not find such confirmation for months. Are you able to post some links, so that I could update the OP?
I’m told over in the Arcam HDA thread that the Anthem uses the same board which is apparently 48gbps… @Krobar Do you have any links to 48Gbps or could you provide some info?

I know that Arcam advertised this as a 48Gbps board when it was announced.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I’m told over in the Arcam HDA thread that the Anthem uses the same board which is apparently 48gbps… @Krobar Do you have any links to 48Gbps or could you provide some info?

I know that Arcam advertised this as a 48Gbps board when it was announced.



Like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was told that there were fairies at the bottom of a garden?

_115796979_francesandthefairies.jpg


Looks real to me?


I think TechEnthu is looking for an accreditted or official source as opposed to someone speculating on a board forum?

If the Yamaha escapade has taught anyone anything then no one should trust anything until an independent reviewer actually has the hardware in front of them with which to test any claims made by its manufacturer. :lesson:
 
Last edited:

CaroleBaskin

Distinguished Member
Like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was told that there were fairies at the bottom of a garden?

View attachment 1708726


I think TechEnthu is looking for an accreditted or official source as opposed to someone speculating on a board forum?
Don’t give up the day job 😄

By your logic the Anthem claim in the list is already away with the fairies, with the Anthem board listed as 48Gbps…

I believe it is the same board. Anthem claim 48Gbit, JBL Synth claim 40Gbit and Arcam don't mention it.

No one has yet proven 48gbit does or does not work with the AVM90. Given how Anthem claimed DTS:X Pro for more than 6months before correcting the website and removing the claim my best guess is the Anthem is actually 40Gbit.

The Anthem could also be a different board but this is highly unlikely given they kept the same OSD and released within 2 weeks of Harman. Another option is it is the same board and Anthem chose not to restrict the max throughput in firmware.
 

CaroleBaskin

Distinguished Member
It’s an interesting one because Anthem seemingly removed the claim, perhaps list isn’t taking that into account yet, and Arcam have included this rather out of place sentence in their statement:

With HDMI 2.1, bandwidth capability extends to 48Gbps – up from 18Gbps with HDMI 2.0, resolutions are supported up to 10K, and frame rates are supported up to 120fps.

If it isn’t 48Gbps it kind of downplays the upgrade in terms of marketing in that press piece. Great to mention 2.1 can be up to 48Gbps, but odd in the context and I think they’re referring to the board upgrade itself. I imagine most read it as they plan for the upgrade to be 48Gbps, but who knows for sure 🤷‍♂️
 

Krobar

Well-known Member
I’m told over in the Arcam HDA thread that the Anthem uses the same board which is apparently 48gbps… @Krobar Do you have any links to 48Gbps or could you provide some info?

I know that Arcam advertised this as a 48Gbps board when it was announced.

I don't know much for certain at this point. The AVM90 release timing and fact it is still using the same OSD as Arcam means it is almost certainly the same HDMI board again.

I've tried asking for someone in the Anthem thread to test using an Nvidia card but I don't think alot of people even understand what 48gbit is; it doesn't help that LG C2s aren't common yet and C1s need a somewhat convoluted EDID override trick to do 4K/120/12bit/4:4:4 from an Nvidia card.
 

TechEnthu

Member
With HDMI 2.1, bandwidth capability extends to 48Gbps – up from 18Gbps with HDMI 2.0, resolutions are supported up to 10K, and frame rates are supported up to 120fps.
Yes, many companies use that generic mantra without specific reference to ports on their devices. Yamaha also told us that all 10 ports on 2021 models are 40 Gbps, but it turns out that Zone 2 port sends 18 Gbps signal. We need a pro reviewer on youtube who would easily reach the public by testing openly all those ports and features, like the ones who test PC parts. If not, a lot of BS could often be floated in marketing unnoticed. Unfortunately, many people are confused with lack of details, including myself. That's the main reason I set up this thread, to try to understand what's going on and exchange reliable information with members who want to know, share and find out.

I've tried asking for someone in the Anthem thread to test using an Nvidia card but I don't think alot of people even understand what 48gbit is; it doesn't help that LG C2s aren't common yet and C1s need a somewhat convoluted EDID override trick to do 4K/120/12bit/4:4:4 from an Nvidia card.
Yes, AVM90 is the only AVP device currently advertised with 48 Gbps ports. It'd be great to be tested. LG 9 series can receive this signal too and several 2022 TVs and new monitors. Fingers crossed we get this information sooner rather than later.
 

TechEnthu

Member
By your logic the Anthem claim in the list is already away with the fairies, with the Anthem board listed as 48Gbps…
They'd better not deceive the public in the advert, otherwise they would also experience the backclash similar to Denon and Yamaha owners who protested en mass.

I am not sure if AVR vendors ever realised that embarking on a journey to sell the gear to PC and console gamers requires more accurate approach to sharing information about video resolutions, refresh rates, other features and bandwidth. If they want any significant gains in this new market for AVRs, they should get their ducks in order, and soon.
 

TechEnthu

Member
How do I test using an LG G2, 3090 and Arcam 2.1 board, please?
Connect 3090 to any "in" port on Arcam with Ultra-High Speed certified HDMI cable and connect Arcam's "out" port to TV. In Nvidia's software, set the image on 4K/120Hz 12-bit RGB, without DSC (this needs 48 Gbps signal), do necessary pass-through settings in Arcam's menu and see what image comes on TV.

LG TVs have a special HDMI diagnostic hidden menu where you could check the 48 Gbps signal. It should show:
  • resolution 3840x2160
  • refresh rate 120Hz
  • colour space (RGB or YUV444)
  • pixel clock
  • traffic per lane (bandwidth) 4L12, etc.
  • FRL6 signal confirmation (for 48 Gbps)
It looks similar to this one below, which is 40 Gbps info.
FRL5 40 Gbps.jpg

The video shows how to evoke that diagnostic screen to check the incoming signal on a specific port (towards the end). Need to press "1" five times and then go to HDMI and press again for sub-menu.
 
Last edited:

Atomicus

Active Member
Is there considered to be a 'best' AVR with HDMI 2.1 that is known to have no issues with VRR, namely PS5 and PC, and in the £1000-1500 range? I read the first page of this thread, but I've been out the loop a while and not sure what I should be looking at. PS5 only just recently got its VRR update also, so not sure how well this has been tested.
 

mr pepper

Active Member
Yeah, Denon works with VRR.
PS5 > Denon x4700 > Samsung Q90R.
There are cheaper and more expensive options just check what are you audio requirements. It has only one 4k 120hz - 8k 60hz port.
If required more ports, they also have HDMI switch.
 

TechEnthu

Member
Yeah, Denon works with VRR.
PS5 > Denon x4700 > Samsung Q90R.
There are cheaper and more expensive options just check what are you audio requirements. It has only one 4k 120hz - 8k 60hz port.
If required more ports, they also have HDMI switch.
Recent models of Denon have three input ports with 40 Gbps. Please see the OP.
 

Atomicus

Active Member
When do new models release and is it worth waiting - either to get a significant boost in performance/more features, or to just pick up one of the existing models at a much cheaper price?
 

Har-One

Member

mr pepper

Active Member
Recent models of Denon have three input ports with 40 Gbps. Please see the OP.
Wow. That is so cool. I stop following the new features once I got mine last January.
When do new models release and is it worth waiting - either to get a significant boost in performance/more features, or to just pick up one of the existing models at a much cheaper price?
Newer models usually have better features, for instance, the above x1700 total of 3 HDMI 2.1 input. That is the best scenario I can see. But to my use case, just 1 port was fine.

I just checked the price forX4700 and it is still the same.

There is also the model AVRS760, which has the 2.1 features.

It is all based on one needs.
 

TechEnthu

Member
When do new models release and is it worth waiting - either to get a significant boost in performance/more features, or to just pick up one of the existing models at a much cheaper price?
It depends on how urgently you really need AVR. I skipped this entire generation and wait for new models in 2023. But, yoou might find a cheap deal closer to release of new AVRs.
 

Cblan1224

Active Member
HDMI 2.1 chips in 2020, 2021, 2022 models of AVRs and AV processors
Reliability of chips, updates, bugs, video signal, gaming features, port speed and issues surrounding the roll out of HDMI 2.1 specification in AV machines

*Note: New production line of some models above ship with upgraded boards installed in factory and changed model number. Check with local dealer, online or call technical support.

2020 - FIRST GEN HDMI 2.1 CHIPS FOR AVRs - not a great start...
Faulty HDMI 2.1 chipsSolution SU - adapter boxSolution Yamaha - board swap
3141541
3141542
3141543
Problems
Panasonic Solutions offered two versions of chips (~14 min). Sound United chose faster 40 Gbps chip with single input, to pass through 4K/120Hz 10-bit RGB video images from sources onto displays. Yamaha chose slower, but multiple input 24 Gbps chip which can pass through 4K/120Hz 10-bit 4-2-0 uncompressed signal. Both chips were not tested properly with sources before AVRs came into the market and owners faced multiple problems with video signal, e.g. black screens, and features working incorrectly.

Solutions
Sound United offered an adapter box which solved the issue with Xbox Series X. Reliability of audio signal through AVR when used with Nvidia GPUs is still a concern. Yamaha's HDMI 2.1 inputs never worked and the company offered free board replacement scheduled for Q4 2021. Owners of Yamaha 2020 AVRs finally start to witness new HDMI boards working reliably. Those new boards will be limited to 24 Gbps on HDMI 2.1 ports and enabling firmware 1.48 arrived. Please see the chronology of events and solutions for owners of 2020 AVRs in the resources below.

1. AVR Denon and Marantz: 1-in-2-out 40 Gbps ports + adapter box
2. AVR Yamaha lower tier models: multi-input ports 24 Gbps - free board swap
2021/2022 - SECOND GEN HDMI 2.1 CHIPS - 24 and 40 Gbps
analog-jpg.3242713

Analog Devices 7672 (ex-Invecas) and others offered improved silicon. Those chips and ports should support more reliably all modern gaming and graphics features, such as FRL, UHD, HDR, HFR, VRR, ALLM, QFT and QMS. More importantly, new AVRs/AVPs should be able to deliver those features working together neatly. Switching on settings 4K+120Hz+10-bit+HDR+RGB+VRR should create high quality, immersive gaming experience with smooth, sharp and bright video signal flow. The same applies to 8K+60Hz+10-bit+HDR+4.2.0+VRR, however we need more capable GPUs in Q4 2022. The models of AVRs and AVPs from different companies are below, including estimated release dates, necessary firmware, configuration of HDMI port speeds and other features.

1. AVR Onkyo, Pioneer, Integra: multi 40 Gbps + 24 Gbps ports - ship Q4 2021
2. AVR Yamaha Aventage higher tier models A4A, A6A, A8A: ship Q4 2021
3. AVR Sound United: board upgrade for flagships and three new budget AVRs
4. AVR Arcam (Harman) 10/20/30 and AVP AV40: 7-in-3-out; upgrade Q1 2022
  • Arcam eligible models: AVR10, AVR20, AVR30 and AV40
  • Arcam offers HDMI 2.1 upgrade boards to owners at $650 and ~£650
  • AVR5 and AVR10 have 7-in-2-out layout, AVR20, AVR30 and AV40 have 7-in-3-out
  • new production line model numbers with fitted board: AVR-11, AVR-21, AVR-31, AV-41
5. AVP JBL Synthesis SDR-35 and SDP-55: 7-in-3-out; upgrade Q1 2022
6. AVR AudioControl Concert and AVP Maestro: all ports 40 Gbps? upgrade Q2?
  • apparently, AudioControl confirmed to end users HDMI 2.1 board upgrade plan
  • new production line of Maestro model numbers with fitted board: X7S and X9S
  • new production line of Concert models with fitted board: XR-4S, XR-6S and XR-8S
7. AVR and AVP Anthem: all ports 40 Gbps; mostly 7-in-3-out, upgrade Q1 2022?
8. AVP Steinway P100, P300 & Lyngdorf MP-40, MP-60: 5-in-2-out, all 40 Gbps
9. AVP Trinnov Altitude 16 and 32: testing 40 Gbps chips; release?
10. AVP StormAudio MK1, MK2, MK3: - testing 40 Gbps chips; upgrade Q2 2022?
11. AVP Monolith HTP-1 by Monoprice: upgrade time unclear
12. AVP McIntosh MX-135 and MX-180: -
2022/2023 - THIRD GEN HDMI 2.1 CHIPS - 48 Gbps

1. AVP Anthem AVM90:
the company claims all ports 48 Gbps; 7-in-3-out
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Full speed chips are currently in development. Why would users need 48 Gbps ports? There are two reasons that will push AV machines towards full speed ports in order to avoid becoming video signal bottleneck:


SOURCES are already capable. Nvidia 3000 GPUs can output 48 Gbps video signal. Current AVRs/AVPs allow 4K/120Hz and 8K/60Hz signal pass-through, up to 40 Gbps, so Nvidia GPUs cannot push 4K/144Hz 10-bit RGB signal through AVRs onto capable display, unless there is end-to-end use of DSC. HDMI 2.1 spec still does not support 4K/144Hz. AVR with 40 Gbps ports is a bottleneck, both for data bandwidth and refresh rates. HDMI Forum might be preparing a minor revision to allow 144Hz refresh rates over 4K, for new 10-bit displays.

In 2022, adoption of full speed HDMI ports is already accelerating in PC environment:
  • new gen of GPUs from Nvidia (Lovelace), AMD (RDNA3) and Intel (DG2) will be capable of 48 Gbps over HDMI 2.1 and 80 Gbps over new DisplayPort 2.0
  • more PC motherboards will support FRL signal and feature level shifter HDMI 2.1 chip that will allow up to 48 Gbps output from integrated GPU on Intel's CPUs. PCs will be able to output full speed video signal without discrete GPU to new high res 10-bit displays.
  • new laptop CPUs, such as AMD's 6000 Rembrandt, already support FRL signal on die; its integrated graphics RDNA2 has 4 display pipelines for HDMI 2.1 and DP 2.0
  • current consoles can output 32 Gbps (PS5) and 40 Gbps (Xbox SX). Expected console refresh in 2023 may increase bandwidth further
  • several NUCs and mini-PCs, perfect for streaming, will come with wide bandwidth ports
DISPLAYS - New gen of 4K/144Hz and 5K/100Hz 10-bit TVs and monitors will enter the market in 2022 and 2023 and will need full bandwidth. If AVRs do not upgrade HDMI ports to full speed and firmware to allow 4K/144 Hz, AVRs will be a bottleneck which is not future proof enough. Users will avoid pass-through connections or skip HDMI on AVRs all together and resort to DisplayPort 2.0 that will give them wider bandwidth, or use direct connections with HDMI 2.1 on displays. This enthusiast and professional segment of market will be lost if not served well by AVRs and AVPs.

Monitors, especially high refresh 4K/5K gaming monitors and displays for creatives and other professionals, will become more bandwidth hungry than current 4K TVs are. This will drive a wave of buyers back to monitors, where they traditionally belonged to. New gen of AVRs will need to respond to this trend with full speed ports and improved support in firmware. Full bandwidth is especially important as DSC feature on HDMI 2.1 ports is not widely supported on devices in consumer electronics market. All devices in a chain, source-AVR-display, need to support DSC for compressed signal to work and reduce bandwidth.

1. Trinnov - hopes to implement the 48 Gbps chip, if they conclude that 2nd gen 40 Gbps chips are still not suitable for prime time (~1h 13 min)
2. others? - awating news and leaks


Current HDMI 2.1 sourcesUpcoming real HDMI 2.1 sources
(ports with 24 and up to 48 Gbps)
1. GPU - Nvidia 3000 series - 48 Gbps
  • HDR10, 12-bit, HDMI VRR driver for 4K120
  • supports DSC over HDMI 2.1
1. AMD 6000 laptops - 24/48 Gbps
2. Intel GPU DG2 - Q2?
2. GPU - AMD 6000 series - 40 Gbps
  • HDR10, 12-bit, no HDMI VRR driver for 4K120
  • no support for DSC over HDMI 2.1
3. Intel NUC 12 Enthusiast?
4. Intel laptop NUC X15 - 48Gb?
3. Console Xbox Series X - 40 Gbps
  • HDR10, 10-bit, HDMI VRR 4K40-120, DV 4K120
  • DSC support?
5. Nvidia GPU Lovelace - Q4?
6. AMD GPU RDNA3 - Q4?
4. Console PS5 - 32 Gbps
- HDR10, no VRR?
5. Asus ProArt Studiobook 16 4K OLED
-

Features and trends in AVRs and AV processors in 2021/2022:
  • companies working hard to release AV machines with 40 Gbps or combo 24/40 Gbps, in context of fire in AKM factory in Japan and global disruption due to Covid 19
  • free hardware for faulty chips in 2020 models: Sound United (adapter box), Yamaha (board)
  • not clear whether 48 Gbps chips are ready - Anthem claims AVM90 hosts full speed chips
  • gaming feature ALLM seems to be working well across the board; almost no compaints
  • gaming feature VRR has received a lot of complaints for patchiness in chain of devices
  • quality features QMS and QFT have not been demonstrated to work; testing needed
  • key features working reliably together is hit and miss: 4K+120Hz+10-bit+HDR+RGB+VRR
  • Dolby Vision 4K/120Hz pass-through is available on Onkyo, XboxX and LG 1-2 TVs
  • Teoh demonstrates 4K/120 12-bit 4-2-2 DolbyVision at 32 Gbps
  • DSC image compression feature is available on AVRs, but not in most 4K/120 TVs and monitors; so DSC is practically unusable on any AVRs with 24 Gbps ports
  • HDMI 2.1 adoption accelerates in PC and laptop environment in 2022
HDMI chart - bandwidth, resolutions, refresh rates, bit depth, RGB, chroma and DSC data
View attachment 1566354
First of all, thank you very much for this. It is a great thing you've put together. Especially since denon will not admit any of this. Customer support seems to say the same things to everyone. It was nice to look at your post validate my own troubleshooting and research on these, somewhat niche issues, like how the adapter has audio issues with nvidia cards

Seems like we are about due for an update. Are the anthem processors really 48gbps? What's on the horizon? How is everything with the 40gbps chip?
Personally, I have an LG oled, nvidia gpu, and denon 4700. I have been through the ringer troubleshooting but it is what it is at this point.
I will say, that finally we got an update that allows us to game in atmos on our PC's. I don't know what was going on, but it would only do multi ch in, instead of atmos, and the sound was very different. Some people think it was only visual, but it was very hard to tell

Anyway, I built a few amps so I'll be looking for a processor on the next round. I'll be looking for the full 48gbps, but we'll see. That's why I was interested to see if the anthem thing worked out.
 
Last edited:

TechEnthu

Member
First of all, thank you very much for this. It is a great thing you've done.
Thank you so much for the kind words.
Anyway, I built a few amps so I'll be looking for a processor on the next round. I'll be looking for the full 48gbps, but we'll see. That's why I was interested to see if the anthem thing worked out.
We were wondering abot this a few days ago, but no one has so far posted any testing results that I would be aware of. Quite interested to see whether FRL6 signal works (48 Gbps), alongside all other features. If yes, that would be the first fully fat chip from the third gen installed in AV device.
 

The latest video from AVForums

Samsung S95B QD OLED Review - A Quantum Leap for OLED!
Subscribe to our YouTube channel

Latest News

PSB Speakers unveils Passif 50 loudspeaker
  • By Ian Collen
  • Published
Samsung Gaming Hub goes live
  • By Ian Collen
  • Published
Huawei unveils FreeBuds Pro 2 true wireless earbuds
  • By Ian Collen
  • Published
Sony unveils Inzone gaming brand
  • By Ian Collen
  • Published
Bowers & Wilkins launches Px7 S2 wireless headphones
  • By Ian Collen
  • Published

Full fat HDMI teeshirts

Support AVForums with Patreon

Top Bottom