HDMI 2.1 chips in AVRs and AV processors - transition to 40/48 Gbps, issues with video and graphics features

JimJango

Member
I'll use my experience to let you into a secret. Come 5 to 7 years from now, you'll be replacing your current newly bought AV receivers with newer models and not for anything being discussed here within this thread. Those features that are known now and being discussed will be superseded by yet unknown ones and these will be more than likely why you will want or think you need a new AVR. Buying now or demanding something now in order to try future proof yourself will not futire proof your hardware. :lesson:
EARC..... the only future proofing tech that's ever been invented since the dawn of the technological revolution.

I suspect this generation of receiver will be the last receiver I ever buy out of necessity. And my current non EARC TV will be the last TV that sits down stream from a receiver.
 

Krobar

Well-known Member
EARC..... the only future proofing tech that's ever been invented since the dawn of the technological revolution.

I suspect this generation of receiver will be the last receiver I ever buy out of necessity. And my current non EARC TV will be the last TV that sits down stream from a receiver.

I'm not 100% sure the current sound formats will be the last we need to decode but I hope you are right. Increasingly streaming devices are outputting PCM with Atmos data and AC4 has entirely been dealt with within the source (at least for Europe and USA) so sound format wise there is a good chance you are right (At least for 5 years+). MPEG-H / whatever Sony call it could become a future requirement but I'm not seeing any signs of that yet and as DTS/Imax are finding out there is strong resistance to using anything but Atmos for streaming.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Increasingly streaming devices are outputting PCM with Atmos data and AC4 has entirely been dealt with within the source (at least for Europe and USA) so sound format wise there is a good chance you are right (At least for 5 years+). MPEG-H / whatever Sony call it could become a future requirement but I'm not seeing any signs of that yet and as DTS/Imax are finding out there is strong resistance to using anything but Atmos for streaming.
There's only one streaming box that uses Dolby MAT to output Atmos and that is the Apple TV 4K device. The only other devices to use Dolby MAT are games consoles such as the XBos and Windows PCs. This has always been the case and the number of devices using Dolby MAT has not increased.

AC4 has nothing to do with Atmos and neither is it being adopted by broadcasters or streaming services. Even Dolby appear to have sidelined it. AC4 is backward compatable anyway and includes a core that will bbackwatd compatable with devices that have no sup[port for AC4.

By the way, Dolby MAT still relies upon the Atmos metadata being packaged with TrueHD or DD+ channel based audio. The Atmos you get in association with PCM using Dolbyy MAT was still derrived from DD+ or TrueHD encoded audio.. The metadata was not delivered to the device in conjunction with PCM, the device decodes the DD+ or TrueHD element of the audio package and outputs the Atmos metadata with the resulting multichannel PCM.
 
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TechEnthu

Member
This thread is very open-minded as regards to trends and new technologies. Several new features future AVRs will adopt have already been discussed. Members are creative and knowledgeable and this is welcomed. 5-7 years from now could be debated based on current developments:

  • HDMI will at least double the speed to compete with DisplayPort 2.0 at 80 Gbps
  • naturally, even higher refresh rates and other features will come into play
  • object-based audio will adopt several more advanced algorithms from high-end AV processors
  • some AVRs will move towards D class, as "green" pressures on consumer devices will become ever more stringent and power efficiency will become more important
  • AV over IP will see commercial adoption, so more LAN ports on AVRs, e.g. Dante and other services. - we will be able to buy a live concert from any part of the world and listen at home over network
  • power to speakers will be distributed in more diverse way, e.g. high power and low power channels
  • we hope to see more than just HDMI ports, such as USB-C for video with adaptive sync
  • OLED touch screens will become a norm, to complement traditional remote control
  • faster USB ports to connect NAS and other external media libraries
  • motherboards will evolve to include more powerful OS and internal SSD disc, so that owners could install Plex server and other software inside AVR; this is now possible on high-end AV processors only
  • room correction systems and noise will stop being a nuissance (hopefully)
  • other?
 

TechEnthu

Member
Gene from Audioholics will publish his long-awaited review of Yamaha A6A. Here is his message:

"Just a quick update. Yamaha confirmed my measurements but there doesn't seem to be a recourse in fixing anything. I will publish the test report as it stands and do my listening tests next to see if any of this is audible. Stay tuned..."

This is going to be interesting to see and debate.
 

Jay53

Well-known Member
Well found a device that might actually work with the 24Gbs ports on the Yamaha v4a/v6a/a2a and still deliver 4k/120 RGB)YUV 4:4:4

Shame it's only 31.5in though and £699 lol

31.5" Gigabyte M32U

It supports hdmi 2.1 but it has 24Gbs port. However it supports DSC 1.2a and it's capable of outputting up to 4k/144 10bit 4:4:4 and 4k 120hz 12 bit RGB which means it's outputting the same capability as a 48Gbs uncompressed port does :)

It works with the xbox series X at 4k/120 10bit 4:4:4 but currently you only get 4k/120 yuv 4:2:0 with a PS5.

All we need now is for TV mfrs to implement DSC support to widen the choice.
 
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TechEnthu

Member
It supports hdmi 2.1 but it has 24Gbs port. However it supports DSC 1.2a and it's capable of outputting up to 4k/144 10bit 4:4:4 and 4k 120hz 12 bit RGB which means it's outputting the same capability as a 48Gbs uncompressed port does
I cannot see this in the spec. Where did you find out about those wild numbers and has this been tested?

There are several problems with marketing this monitor that Gigabyte really needs to clarify to the public:
- it supports 144 Hz over DisplayPort only and 120 Hz over HDMI for consoles. They wrote those two numbers separately on their website. There is a reason for that. They are not strupid.

- DSC is supported separately over DisplayPort and HDMI. The spec reads DSC over DisplayPort only. So, no DSC over HDMI, I am afraid.

- Also, it reads: HDMI 2.1 supports PS5 and Xbox Series X at 4K [email protected] (4:2:0)
As this image can be delivered either over 8-bit (18 Gbps) or 10-bit (20 Gbps), it is not clear what they mean. Have you verified the chipset inside the monitor? Is it really 24 Gbps and can it run FRL signals?

- this is almost-10-bit panel (8-bit+FRC), so there is no 12-bit image

- strangely, it has "FreeSync Premium Pro" label and only DisplayHDR 400 certificate (brightness 350), which is a kind of oxymoron; fake HDR. Recently AMD watered down Premium Pro requirements, similar to Nvidia. They originally stated "above 400 nits", which would be a bare, bare minimum fro HDR-like effect, but now they changed even that saying that monitor itself does not need to be HDR capable, which sounds ridiculous. Driver can set-up monitor if Premium Pro supported HDR content is detected and then tome map images on whatever monitor. So, you can have Premium Pro feature displayed on non-HDR monitor. It's bizarre.

- 'DisplayHDR 400' label for IPS panels has been called numerous times to be scrapped, as it gives false impression about what HDR really is. 400 label is a gimmick.

Is this really HDMI 2.1 monitor? Is this really HDR monitor?
 

Jay53

Well-known Member
Rtings additional notes on MU28

These apparently apply to the MU32 as well.

In the review itself hdr real scene is measured a 484 cd/m2. Not going to set the world alight but does exceed hdr400.

There is also further discussion in the replies where others have tested and reported back about hdmi running up to 144hz, 24Gbs and hdmi using DSC as well

Hopefully I haven't misinterpreted but if I have then I am sure people will put me right :)
 
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TechEnthu

Member
There is also further discussion in the replies where others have tested and reported back about hdmi running up to 144hz, 24Gbs and hdmi using DSC as well
Yes, it makes sense. Like Yamaha 2020, this is a lower end monitor with 24 Gbps chip. DSC should do a good job for those who have capable source with DSC. So. matching with those Yamaha's could turn out to work when firmware is enabled. Fingers crossed.
 

Jay53

Well-known Member
Yes, it makes sense. Like Yamaha 2020, this is a lower end monitor with 24 Gbps chip. DSC should do a good job for those who have capable source with DSC. So. matching with those Yamaha's could turn out to work when firmware is enabled. Fingers crossed.

Not sure I would call them low end as apart from the Samsung LS28AG702NUXEN which has 40Gbs ports but barely reaches 400cd/m2 every other 4k monitor capable of 120hz 10bit over hdmi seems to have gone the 24Gbs route. I would put them mid range :)

What does intrigue me is why the Samsung above has 40Gbs hdmi ports AND supports DSC 1.2a. That's definitely covering all bases. Strangely though it still only works up to 4k/60 with PS5 out the box with a firmware update required to fix it
 

TechEnthu

Member
I would put them mid range :)
It depends on combination of reafures and which ones you care about. For me:
1 - low range 4K/144Hz, 8-bit+FRC, DisplayHDR 400, mid contrast and less than 384 FALD, 24 Gbps
(some flickering, blooming and banding clearly visible)
2 - mid range 4K/144Hz, 8-bit+FRC, DisplayHDR 600, high contrast 384-512 FALD, 32-40 Gbps
(flickering almost gone, some blooming and banding still visible)
3 - high end 4K/144Hz, 10-bit, DisplayHDR 1000, high contrast and 1152 FALD, 48 Gbps
(no flickering, no blooming and no banding)
 
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Jay53

Well-known Member
It depends on combination of reafures and which ones you care about. For me:
1 - low range 4K/144Hz, 8-bit+FRC, DisplayHDR 400, mid contrast and less than 384 FALD, 24 Gbps
2 - mid range 4K/144Hz, 8-bit+FRC, DisplayHDR 600, high contrast 384-512 FALD, 32-40 Gbps
3 - high end 4K/144Hz, 10-bit, DisplayHDR 1000, high contrast and 1152 FALD, 48 Gbps

Ok, I was just referring to monitors :) Not sure there is a single TV out there that does 4k/144hz which you put as low end.
 

TechEnthu

Member
Ok, I was just referring to monitors :) Not sure there is a single TV out there that does 4k/144hz which you put as low end.
Monitors usually have higher refresh rates than TVs and this is not a premium feature. In that sense, it's not comparable to TVs that have only recently moved to 120 Hz. On TVs even 120 Hz is still premium, whereas 144 Hz on monitors is not treated as such. Adding 4K to 144Hz kind of makes it feel more mid range, but this is deceptive.

More premium features that segment new 4K/144Hz IPS monitors are HDR, FALD, colour gamut, bit depth and contrast capabilities. These will determine the extent of flickering, blooming, banding and luminance. There is more segmentation in IPS, as more features influence the quality of image on IPS panels. For example, OLEDs can easily reach high contrast and decent HDR and we take it for granted. IPS panels need more gear built in it and more investment to deal with those features.

I get it. It's not intuitive to think that any 4K/144Hz monitor is low end. Sadly, this is not truth and it is marketing that hypes resolution and refresh rates partly responsible for the fact that people do not pay too much attention to other important features. If you do not compare it with TVs, you realize that implemenatation of other important features on 4K/144Hz panel can go in several directions, fro really basic, through mid range, all the way to high end. Even Asus Pro Art 4K monitors are segmented and it is not refresh rates that dictate their price and quality.
 

TechEnthu

Member
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Jay53

Well-known Member
Also, Yamaha needs to update EDID to allow 144 Hz pass-through, as this is out of the spec. Currently, new 4K/144 monitors could only pass 120 Hz through AVRs once firmware is out.

This one is also on offer. Is it low end or mid range?
Edge lit - blooming?
Poor contrast ratio?
Brightness impressive?
I guess it's difficult to pin a low/mid/upper definition as monitors are still playing catch-up and not sure they will ever reach the same levels.

fald is not that common in monitors I guess due to typically being less that 32in and slimmer than TVs

Frame rate isn't everything but this also seems to be a sacrifice as very few 4k monitors are capable of more than 75hz, something TVs have been doing for a while now.

So does that automatically place all monitors as low?

I suppose that is why I termed them medium as a compromise as in the field of 4k monitors with more than 75hz these 24Gbs equipped monitors are some of the best you can currently get. Maybe that's why some people are resorting to the smallest 4k/120 TV they can find such as the 48in LG oled to have as a PC gaming monitor especially given these 24Gbs monitors above are circa £700.

Tbh I only mentioned them due to their 24Gbs+dsc1.2a support as a potential candidate to pair with the 24Gbs equipped AVRs. It's going to require TV/monitor mfrs to implement DSC even on 40/48Gbs end devices for these 24Gbs AVRs to be able to pass through 4k/120 10bit RGB

However who knows what is around the corner even if that corner seems to be taking ages to get around :)
 
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TechEnthu

Member
Packaged AVR with replaced HDMI board on 2020 models looks like this. First replaced boards have started to arrive to owners. There is an explicit information about 24 Gbps port speed, something that our tech community was fighting for months to be officially published.

Thank you to FlatPanelHD who helped with this and challenged Yamaha to publish this information for the public.
D33DCC17-D87A-41EB-AA8C-F731169179C5.jpeg
 

TechEnthu

Member
Yamaha firmware 1.48 finally delivers 24 Gbps signals at 4K/120 10-bit 4:2:0 running at FRL3 rate for owners of 2020 models. Other features, VRR, ALLM, etc. expected in next firmware. From AV member testing it on home gear.
20211125_132109.jpg
 

Jay53

Well-known Member
Yamaha firmware 1.48 finally delivers 24 Gbps signals at 4K/120 10-bit 4:2:0 running at FRL3 rate for owners of 2020 models. Other features, VRR, ALLM, etc. expected in next firmware. From AV member testing it on home gear.
View attachment 1608982

Any members managed to test it yet with one of the 24Gbs monitors that supports DSC over hdmi?
 
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Yes, 2021 models of Yamaha will host all 40 Gbps ports, 7-in-3-out. For 2020 models, owners who wish to change the board need to register with Yamaha, the exchange programme starts this fall and will last two years. Be mindful that HDMI 2.1 features on new Yamahas will not work out of the box, until users install enabling firmware. We hope for the best, but we really do not know at this moment how reliably those AVRs would perform in video department, considering all past issues.
I just read through this whole thread and found this nugget of a note in regard to the A6A, which I have on order.

All 7/3 ports being 40gbps capable was my understanding when I bought it and will need that to come to fruition via firmware for it to work for me (I accept those risks of firmware), but I saw the note on Crutchfield and googling led me here where I see the conversation you've had about it and their listing claiming only 3/1 are 40gbps.

Was this ever re-confirmed after the note on Crutchfield was pointed out? Or are we just assuming they have bad info posted since Yamaha seemed pretty clear on launch?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I just read through this whole thread and found this nugget of a note in regard to the A6A, which I have on order.

All 7/3 ports being 40gbps capable was my understanding when I bought it and will need that to come to fruition via firmware for it to work for me (I accept those risks of firmware), but I saw the note on Crutchfield and googling led me here where I see the conversation you've had about it and their listing claiming only 3/1 are 40gbps.

Was this ever re-confirmed after the note on Crutchfield was pointed out? Or are we just assuming they have bad info posted since Yamaha seemed pretty clear on launch?


All 7 inputs and the 3 outputs on the A4, A6 and the A8 are 40Gbps.


It is the lower tier V4, V6 and A2 models that are capped at 24Gbps and the V4 has 4 HDMI version 2.1 8K inputs while the V6 and the A2 have just 3.


No idea as to why you'd need more than 3 anyway?
 
All 7 inputs and the 3 outputs on the A4, A6 and the A8 are 40Gbps.


It is the lower tier V4, V6 and A2 models that are capped at 24Gbps and the V4 has 4 HDMI version 2.1 8K inputs while the V6 and the A2 have just 3.


No idea as to why you'd need more than 3 anyway?
Thank you.

I should have been more specific. I'm not too concerned about the inputs so much, but I am about the outputs.

My "theatre room" is a bit of an outlier scenario.

LG CX and Projector in one room. TV is mounted to a ceiling mount on industrial ceiling track for moving from in front of the projector screen and around the room in different spots and swiveling to face different directions. While my projector is aging, it is soon to be replaced with a projector with 4k120 hdmi 2.1 capabilities.

I'd like to be able to feed both the best they can handle, future proof for 4k120, and on the odd occasion I use them at the same time with friends with multiple consoles or PC's.

If the ports worked the way it's noted on Crutchfield, I would sit this year out and keep waiting.
 
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TechEnthu

Member
I'd like to be able to feed both the best they can handle, future proof for 4k120, and on the odd occasion I use them at the same time with friends with multiple consoles or PC's.
Yes, A6A and other two 2021 models will feature all 40 Gbps ports. Enabling firmware should arrive in February 2022. Fingers crossed.
 

Krobar

Well-known Member
There's only one streaming box that uses Dolby MAT to output Atmos and that is the Apple TV 4K device. The only other devices to use Dolby MAT are games consoles such as the XBos and Windows PCs. This has always been the case and the number of devices using Dolby MAT has not increased.

AC4 has nothing to do with Atmos and neither is it being adopted by broadcasters or streaming services. Even Dolby appear to have sidelined it. AC4 is backward compatable anyway and includes a core that will bbackwatd compatable with devices that have no sup[port for AC4.

By the way, Dolby MAT still relies upon the Atmos metadata being packaged with TrueHD or DD+ channel based audio. The Atmos you get in association with PCM using Dolbyy MAT was still derrived from DD+ or TrueHD encoded audio.. The metadata was not delivered to the device in conjunction with PCM, the device decodes the DD+ or TrueHD element of the audio package and outputs the Atmos metadata with the resulting multichannel PCM.

Looks like AC4 has begun use in the ATSC 3.0 trial areas in the USA so is seeing broadcaster adoption although probably will be dealt with entirely in the source device. Still waiting to see if MPEG-H takes hold outside of Korea (Which is likely why Denon/Marantz support it).
 

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