HDMI 2.1 chips in AVRs and AV processors - transition to 40/48 Gbps, issues with video and graphics features

Snootle

Standard Member
EDIT:
@TechEnthu
I have some new information from the official reseller of Denon in my country.

The Denon receivers which have been delivered until June are in need of the separate HDMI-box from Sound United. But the ones arriving in late July-August will have a new HDMI-chip in them. This is by no means an official statement I can link, but they are the official reseller in my country so I’d say it’s pretty legit.

This seems to be the case in Australia - if that is where you are, the current Denon x700 series with 'faulty' HDMI chips are available with a discount by as much as $300 AUD in waiting for the new stock.
 

sdrawkcab

Novice Member
This seems to be the case in Australia - if that is where you are, the current Denon x700 series with 'faulty' HDMI chips are available with a discount by as much as $300 AUD in waiting for the new stock.
Wow that’s a hefty discount and maybe an offer I’d take up since the box-solution is more of an inconveniencethab anything else. Anyway good on them for correcting production!

This explains why supply has been so low for these receivers as they had to wait for new chips
 

TechEnthu

Member
That’s unfortunately a bit late for me since I live in Europe and I’m hoping to buy something this fall.
Yamahas should be pretty good and available in Q3, but first independent reviews and testing results need to be seen. It's always better to wait to see how devices perform in reviewers' hands. No rush.
 

TechEnthu

Member
This seems to be the case in Australia - if that is where you are, the current Denon x700 series with 'faulty' HDMI chips are available with a discount by as much as $300 AUD in waiting for the new stock.
Wow! Do you have any links?
 

TechEnthu

Member
Wow that’s a hefty discount and maybe an offer I’d take up since the box-solution is more of an inconveniencethab anything else. Anyway good on them for correcting production!
There are reports that the adapter box drops audio when Nvidia GPUs are connected to it. Several tickets have been opened with SU to try to figure out. Just be mindful that the box was specifically designed for XboxX signal problems and it does not guarantee it would work as general input for any other device. In theory, it should work as any HDMI 2.1 input, but SU was vary careful not to advertise it as such, which is fine.
 

Jay53

Active Member
There are reports that the adapter box drops audio when Nvidia GPUs are connected to it. Several tickets have been opened with SU to try to figure out. Just be mindful that the box was specifically designed for XboxX signal problems and it does not guarantee it would work as general input for any other device. In theory, it should work as any HDMI 2.1 input, but SU was vary careful not to advertise it as such, which is fine.
Pretty certain prior to the adaptor page going up I read it was for the Xbox and RTX30xx series cards. Struggling to find that info now though :(

Also, whilst SU have been careful with their wording equally they have not said its specifically for the Xbox as they just refer to 'certain gaming consoles' ;)
 

ssj3rd

Novice Member
There are reports that the adapter box drops audio when Nvidia GPUs are connected to it. Several tickets have been opened with SU to try to figure out. Just be mindful that the box was specifically designed for XboxX signal problems and it does not guarantee it would work as general input for any other device. In theory, it should work as any HDMI 2.1 input, but SU was vary careful not to advertise it as such, which is fine.
And this wording is „fine“? Hmm, I can’t agree with you there Mate, not at all.

SU advertised an AVR with HDMI 2.1 functionality and they couldn’t deliver it properly.
So now comes the Magic Box and with the PC they still don’t deliver a Bug free experience AVR and that’s awful, don’t you think?

But hey:
the Magic Box just works with the Xbox and that’s fine! You still have problems with other HDMI 2.1 devices like a PC?
Hmm, sorry, but we didn’t promise that the Box will fix them as well, so deal with it! 😉
 
Last edited:

TechEnthu

Member
SU advertised an AVR with HDMI 2.1 functionality and they couldn’t deliver it properly.
So now comes the Magic Box and with the PC they still don’t deliver a Bug free experience AVR and that’s awful, don’t you think?
I was very critical about last year's fiasco in multiple comments. It is one of the main reasons this thread exists. The box does deliver for XboxX, which it was designed for.
the Magic Box just works with the Xbox and that’s fine! You still have problems with other HDMI 2.1 devices like a PC?
Hmm, sorry, but we didn’t promise that the Box will fix them as well, so deal with it!
There is more to this. The audio drop-out culprit has been studiously researched and narrowed down to new Nvidia driver. There is probably little SU can do about it. It seems that all tickets by owners should be opened with Nvidia to fix the driver.

1625759653050.png
 

TechEnthu

Member
Of course, weeks ago
It's really a shame that there are so many annoying issues with the first gen of HDMI 2.1 devices. SO many frustrated uses, effectively beta-testers for bugs. Unacceptable, but real, as soon as people are willing to buy what is on offer.
 

TechEnthu

Member
Nvidia has released a new driver 471.41 that should solve audio drop out on HDMI 2.1 devices. I hope this works for all who reported the issue with their GPUs, TVs and AVRs.
 

TechEnthu

Member
Official statement about 4K/120Hz transmission compatibility on Yamaha's website neither mentions different colour flavours of 4K/120Hz signals nor it refers to DSC protocol which will be necessary with 24 Gbps ports. There are two issues to be addressed here, so that the public is aware of what is going on:
effects of HDMI 2.1 bandwidth limitation to 24 Gbps and use of DSC video protocol.

1. Effects of HDMI 2.1 bandwidth limitation on AVRs to 24 Gbps
2020 AVR models support 4K120AB signals, but only up to 24 Gbps. In uncompressed mode, this means there are colour limits as to what kind of 4K120Hz signal could be sent through AVR:

  • HDMI 2.0 (18 Gbps) - TMDS signal can handle 4K 120Hz 8-bit 4-2-0
  • HDMI 2.1 (20 and 24 Gbps) - FRL signal can handle 4K 120Hz 10-bit 4-2-0 and 12-bit 4-2-0
Question 1:
How will Yamaha explain to customers who wish to buy lower tier models or replace HDMI boards on 2020 models that any 4K120 RGB signals from XboxX and new Nvidia/AMD GPUs connected to those AVRs will NOT pass onto TVs that do not support DSC signals? Will there be an official statement about this on Yamaha's website? Any list of DSC-compatible TVs?

2. Use of DSC protocol
As 4K120 RGB signals from sources require minimum bandwidth of 32 Gbps, DSC must be used for those signals due to Yamaha's HDMI 2.1 ports being limited to 24 Gbps. In other words, if users wish to pass a "full bodied" signal, i.e. 4K 120 10-bit RGB (40 Gbps), video pipeline must use DSC protocol because AVRs can only receive signals with bandwidth up to 24 Gbps. If a TV does not have DSC decoder built in, it is going to show a black screen or default to 4-2-0 image, if lucky.

Question 2:
Has anyone educated the public as to which 4K TVs support incoming DSC signals? Community research suggests that Sony and LG TVs do not support it and some Samsung TVs do support it. Has Yamaha communicated to TV manufacturers before deciding to keep 24 Gbps ports on replacement boards, to make sure that DSC signals would work through entire video pipeline?

Is anyone aware of which 4K TV models and PC monitors support DSC over HDMI 2.1 protocol?

Using AVRs with 24 Gbps ports is not going to be a hunky-dory 4K120Hz experience. It's asking for troubles.
 

TechEnthu

Member
Future NUCs 12 are likely going to host Intel's new descrete GPU featuring both HDMI 2.1 and DisplayPort 2.0 connectors for media and gaming junkies. It is not clear at the moment whether the first edition of DP 2.0 port is going to have 40, 54 or 80 Gbps speed. Chips for all three speeds exist and are being tested, such as this one from Diodes DP 2.0 HDMI 2.1 video switch

Graphics on this system (up to 4096 stream processors) is easily going to be more powerful than XboxX (3328 stream processors). Fingers crossed it works well. Expected in Q1 2022.

The planned device is interesting because its diverse connectors could be used with variety of 4K/120 displays, based on DP 2.0, HDMI 2.1 (dGPU) and Thunderbolt 4 (iGPU).

Lossless audio can conveniently be routed to AVR either with HDMI cable or capable DP-HDMI adapter, decreasing the reliance on eARC on TV/AVR and decreasing the urgency of buying HDMI 2.1 AVR for the sake of having HDMI 2.1 on AVR.

 

Jay53

Active Member
Future NUCs 12 are likely going to host Intel's new descrete GPU featuring both HDMI 2.1 and DisplayPort 2.0 connectors for media and gaming junkies. It is not clear at the moment whether the first edition of DP 2.0 port is going to have 40, 54 or 80 Gbps speed. Chips for all three speeds exist and are being tested, such as this one from Diodes DP 2.0 HDMI 2.1 video switch

Graphics on this system (up to 4096 stream processors) is easily going to be more powerful than XboxX (3328 stream processors). Fingers crossed it works well. Expected in Q1 2022.

The planned device is interesting because its diverse connectors could be used with variety of 4K/120 displays, based on DP 2.0, HDMI 2.1 (dGPU) and Thunderbolt 4 (iGPU).

Lossless audio can conveniently be routed to AVR either with HDMI cable or capable DP-HDMI adapter, decreasing the reliance on eARC on TV/AVR and decreasing the urgency of buying HDMI 2.1 AVR for the sake of having HDMI 2.1 on AVR.


More hdmi 2.1 sources is good but I am sceptical that a nucs graphics processing that are usually passively cooled can outstrip an Xbox series X that is actively cooled and chucks out some heat doing so. If it could surely microsoft would be running to intel to use these chips in the mid cycle Xbox series X upgrade? Maybe they will :)
 

TechEnthu

Member
More hdmi 2.1 sources is good but I am sceptical that a nucs graphics processing that are usually passively cooled can outstrip an Xbox series X that is actively cooled and chucks out some heat doing so. If it could surely microsoft would be running to intel to use these chips in the mid cycle Xbox series X upgrade? Maybe they will :)
It depends how compact NUC is. Cooling can be designed well, which will make NUC slightly bigger. Or custom case and cooling could be used too and then HDMI 2.1 could deliver to its full potential and comfortably connected to AVRs too.
 

Snootle

Standard Member
So, if I want 4k 60hz 10bit (HDR) 4:4:4 I need to use HDMI 2.1 (or HDMI 2.0 with some subsets of HDMI 2.1 spec ala Q90R HDMI ports).
The question is that to pass through this on the x3700h, 8k Enhanced is the required port mode - this being the only 60hz mode where it is required. Can anyone with a non upgraded unit confirm that this works with a PC as the source. Most comments talk about not needing HDMI 2.1 because they don't need 120hz, but for this 60hz case you do. Is it affected by the bug?
 

TechEnthu

Member
Is it affected by the bug?
Yes, because the problem was about available data bandwidth. Any bandwidth above 18 Gbps (older TMDS signalling over HDMI 2.0) was affected by the bug.

To pass through 4K/60 10-bit RGB/4:4:4, you need 20 Gbps, which is higher bandwidth FRL3 signalling from HDMI 2.1 spec. This runs traffic over 4 lanes, each lane in 6 Gbps mode. The older standard TMDS is only capable of up to 6 Gbps over each of the three lanes (6x3=18 Gbps).
hdmi.jpg

FRL Rates for HDMI 2.1 traffic over 4 lanes:
FRL3: 24Gbps (6Gbps × 4 lanes) - up to 4K/60 12-bit RGB/4:4:4 or 4K/120 12-bit 4:2:0 (Yamaha 2020)
FRL4: 32Gbps (8Gbps × 4 lanes) - up to 4K/120 12-bit 4:2:2 (PS5)
FRL5: 40Gbps (10Gbps × 4 lanes) - up to 4K/120 10-bit RGB (XboxX, AMD 6000 GPUs, Denon, Yamaha 2021 models, etc.)
FRL6: 48Gbps (12Gbps × 4 lanes) - up to 4K/120 12-bit RGB (Nvidia 3000 series GPUs)
 

Snootle

Standard Member
Thanks for the detailed breakdown. I was only aware of FRL being an issue in terms of bandwidth and it only being cited as an Xbox, ps5 issue. Not that all tiers were affected for any input at those bandwidths.

Was hoping to get a discounted x3700h ($2200 AUD!)with the original DACs but now it seems the updated model might be more feasible though they're not available in Australia yet afaik.
 

TechEnthu

Member
Following community request, Rasmus Larsen from Flat Panels HD investigated with Yamaha 24 Gbps ports on 2020 models. He finally received a reply from the company and published the article today.

This is the first time Yamaha stated that port speed of 2020 models is indeed capped to 24 Gbps, one year after releasing those models. 24 Gbps ports will only be available once owners apply for free replacement boards.
 

TechEnthu

Member
Virtual CEDIA is here with Audioholics. Here are four interesting episodes:
1. HDMI 2.1 – 2. HDMI 2.1 gaming – 3. DANTE – 4. Future of home thatre –
 

TechEnthu

Member
DSC feature over HDMI 2.1

As Yamaha 2020 AVRs are limited to 24 Gbps, it is usefull to be aware of images that can work with sources and displays that are connected via those AVRs. Here is a rare answer from LG that one of their 8K NanoCell 99 TVs does not support DSC over HDMI 2.1

Does this TV support DSC (display stream compress – Q&A – Best Buy

Does this TV support DSC (display stream compression) and 8k @ 60hz RGB? – Learn about LG - 65" Class NanoCell 99 Series LED 8K UHD Smart webOS TV with 2 Answers – Best Buy
www.bestbuy.com
www.bestbuy.com

If unsure, please ask your TV manufacturer whether your model supports DSC, so that we could build a clearer picture of it. It's difficult to find more information about DSC on HDMI 2.1 TVs.

Engineers of SoCs for 4K/120Hz 10-bit TVs probably thought that those machines would not need to support DSC over HDMI 2.1, as there is enough bandwidth available on ports to deal with uncompressed signals. And they most probably never thought that some lower tier AVRs would have ports crippled to 24 Gbps to necessitate the inclusion of DSC decoder on 4K TVs and add more cost to it.

DSC seems to make more sense on 8K TVs, where source could send a signal that would normally need more than 40/48 Gbps, so DSC kicks in on GPU and TV to display, say 8K/60 10-bit RGB image from PC. Image that would normally need ~80 Gbps of bandwidth is compressed to fit through available bandwidth.

This is the logic behind general lack of support for DSC over HDMI 2.1 on 4K/120 TVs. A feature that is not necessary.
-----------------------------------------
On GPU side, DSC over HDMI 2.1 is more likely to occur. 4K/5K monitors with above 120 Hz are more likely to utilize the feature to deal with high bandwidth images, such as 5K/120 10-bit RGB that needs ~50 Gbps on a single monitor, or DSC can be used for mosaic image on several monitors. Currently, it's only Nvidia that supports it over HDMI 2.1.

This is how Nvidia lists DSC support over DP 1.4a and HDMI 2.1
-up to 4k 12-bit HDR at 240Hz with DP1.4a+DSC
-up to 8k 12-bit HDR at 60Hz with DP 1.4a+DSC or HDMI 2.1+DSC
-with dual DP1.4a+DSC, up to 8K HDR at 120Hz

This is how AMD lists DSC support - over DP 1.4a only :(
-DisplayPort 1.4 with DSC
-HDMI™ 2.1 VRR and FRL (no mention of FRL5 - those GPU can do 40 Gbps max at the moment)
 

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