HDMI 2.1 chips in AVRs and AV processors - transition to 40/48 Gbps, issues with video and graphics features

whitehart

Well-known Member
According to this listing from Crutchfield, new Yamahas will host one HDMI 2.1 Tx-Rx chip, with four ports in 3-in-1-out layout, each with 40 Gbps speed. All other six ports (4-in-2-out) will either be 18 Gbps or a mix of 18 Gbps and 24 Gbps. We are looking forward to see testing and performance results.
so to make this clear in my head for inputs, like the RX-V6A (after fix etc) it will have 3 inputs for HDMI 2.1 and the rest will be HDMI 2.0 ? at the lower speeds
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Yamaha advertised the V6 as having just 3 8K/4K 120Hz compliant inputs while they stated that the V4 has 4.

The 2 lower tier models haven't the same number of 8K/4K 120Hz compliant inputs. All the inputs will be fully HDR10+, ALLM, VRR, QMS, and QFT enabled though. Note that their HDMI version 2.1 capabilities will still require a firmware revision post any board replacement.

The V6 has 7 inputs total while the V4 has 4 inputs in total and both only have one output.


The higher tier 2021 Aventage models were initially indicated as having 7 inputs, 2 mirrored outputs and a third second HDMI zone output. All inputs and outputs on these models were indicated as being fully 8K/4K 120Hz copmpliant and 40Gbps. Again, you'd need a software revision to enable the HDMI 2.1 related capabilities though.

What Crutchfield are saying is that the Aventage A4, A6 and A8 only have 3 inputs and 1 output that supports 8K/60Hz and 4K/120Hz video?

HDMI features:​

  • HDMI 2.1 audio/video switching: 7 in, 3 out
    • all HDMI connections support 4K/60Hz video
    • 3 inputs and 1 output will support 8K/60Hz and 4K/120Hz video with free future firmware update
    • HDCP 2.3 technology ensures compatibility with Ultra HD sources and TVs
    • HDR-compatible for extended picture contrast and brightness with compatible TVs and HDR-encoded content
    • supports HDR10, HDR10+, Dolby Vision™, and HLG (Hybrid Log Gamma)
    • HDR10+ enabled via free future firmware update
  • gaming-optimized video processing technologies for a smooth, lag-free gaming experience
    • Variable Refresh Rate (VRR), Auto Low Latency Mode (ALLM), Quick Media Switching (QMS), and Quick Frame Transport (QFT) reduce or eliminate lag and frame tearin


This is contrary to what was initially thought and here's what Yamaha themselves initially said when they announced these new models in Japan:

Equipped with 7 input / 3 output HDMI terminals that support HDR10 + video transmission and 8K / 60Hz, 4K / 120Hz video signal pass-through / 4K upscaling, and all terminals support 8K / 60Hz, 4K / 120Hz signals Therefore, you can connect multiple 8K playback devices such as the latest game machines at the same time. In addition, VRR (Variable Refresh Rate) that synchronizes the refresh rate of the video source and the display to suppress flickering of the video, and QMS (Quick) that can quickly switch the input of content without causing screen blackout or display distortion. Media Switching), QFT (Quick Frame Transport) that reduces latency by increasing the transmission speed from video source devices, ALLM (Auto Low Latency Mode) that automatically switches between image quality priority and low latency priority according to the content. It supports various HDMI standards such as.

With support for the latest HDMI technology, along with HDR10+ support, unlocked via a firmware update later in the year, the new Aventage AVRs all feature seven HDMI inputs and three outputs that will allow 8K60/4K120. This HDMI 2.1 compatibility enables Auto Low Latency Mode (ALLM), Variable Refresh Rates (VRR), Quick Frame Transport (QFT) and Quick Media Switching (QMS) for superior gaming performance. All inputs on the new AVENTAGE models support Dolby Vision too.


It should be noted that Crutchfield are a US retailer and not a tech site.
 
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TechEnthu

Member
so to make this clear in my head for inputs, like the RX-V6A (after fix etc) it will have 3 inputs for HDMI 2.1 and the rest will be HDMI 2.0 ? at the lower speeds
Current accurate answer to your question for 2020 models is - Yes, but...
According to current spec, three upgraded HDMI 2.1 ports would be 24 Gbps each, not 40 Gbps. Here is why. Yamaha's website reads "4K120 AB*, 8K60 B*". This can minimally work with 24 Gbps (10-bit 4-2-0). Below is the bandwidth chart for compressed (B) and uncompressed speeds (A). 8K60 B means port speed of 24 Gbps, as this works with DSC. 4K120 AB has six bandwidth flavours, ranging from 18 Gbps to 48 Gbps. Those depend on chroma colours and bit depth. So, if 8K60 B cannot do more than 24 Gbps, then 4K120 flavour will also be limited to 24 Gbps or 10-bit 4-2-0. Such port cannot push through 4K120 10-bit RGB (40 Gbps). If it could, they would have had to advertise 8K60 with AB. For 8K60 AB 10-bit, one minimally needs 40 Gbps, almost twice as wide bandwidth.

It's not clear whether board change would bring new chips with 40 Gbps capability or new chips with 24 Gbps for those three ports. HDMI 2.1 port speeds span from above 18 Gbps all the way up to 48 Gbps. Not all HDMI 2.1 ports are the same (see opening post for speeds of current sources). It'd be most useful if Yamaha could clarify this finally. It should be really simple to communicate this to the public. Has anyone seen any specific publication about the speed, which new boards would arrive with? I truly hope they replace boards with three 40 Gbps ports, so this could work properly with consoles and GPUs. Otherwise, the board upgrade would be stupid.

Answer for 2021 models - it's a bit confusing after seeing Crutchfield's listing. They might wrong by done copy&paste. And they might be right too. Yamaha's website reads that new receivers supports 4K120 AB and, most importantly, 8K60 AB 10-bit, which is 40 Gbps. There are 7+3 ports. But they do not currently explicitly say that all ports would be 40 Gbps. It's just that Yamaha is not specific about it, unless I have missed something.

If we split A and B signals into two bandwidth groups, it is also possible for new models to get two different chips on boards, like in announcement for Onkyo/Pioneer (link in OP). Both chips are HDMI 2.1, but one is much faster.
1. "Speedy chip" for AB signals (3-in-1-out)
4K120 A for 10-bit RGB requires 40 Gbps (they say 10G/4L - 10 Gbps per lane x4)
8K60 A for 10-bit 4-2-0 requires 40 Gbps (they say 10G/4L - 10 Gbps per lane x4)
2. "Slower chip" for AB signals up to 24 Gbps (4-in-2-out)
4K120 A for 10-bit 4-2-0 requires 24 Gbps, 4K120 B for 10-bit RGB needs 18 Gbps only, so fits in
8K60 B for 8/12-bit RGB requires 24 Gbps

That's 10 ports, with the second set on ports running on a slower chip, like Onkyo. It's also a fair solution. There is nothing wrong with it, but we need to be aware of this, whether it is the case or not.
 

whitehart

Well-known Member
i guess its a bit of a wait and see - hopefully we'll get some reviews of the newer yamaha's soon. I'm thinking of trading my rx-v6a
 

TechEnthu

Member
What Crutchfield are saying is that the Aventage A4, A6 and A8 only have 3 inputs and 1 output that supports 8K/60Hz and 4K/120Hz video?
Yes. Could not find an email to them to try to clarify whether it was genuine or copy&paste part of spec from 2020 models. Try, if you have a contact.

What is interesting is the fact that you do not even need all 40 Gbps ports to support both 4K120 and 8K60, depending on A or B signalling. They could, in theory, install mixed speed chips. On one faster chip with 4 x 40 Gbps ports (3-in-1-out) better quality 4K120/8K60 can pass, and on another one, slower chip 24 Gbps (4-in-2-out) 4K120/8K60 can pass too, but in lower colour and bit depth, or sometimes compressed. I grappled with this above. #53

Yamaha simply did not choose that faster chip last year. Phil Jones from SU used that fact and smeared on them during one youtube interview for the new year that I gave a link to in OP. There were only two versions of chips: faster with less ports (SU) and slower with more ports (Yamaha). Both companies were offered both versions to consider. Jones openly boasted that SU chose "superior" chip. We know how that ended... It was a mess across...

Last year and this year, Yamaha did not activate any significant HDMI 2.1 features on 2020 models, as they knew they would not have been able to get away with 24 Gbps ports. That would not work well with XboX and GPUs. Everybody would complain that they need to lower all settings or use compression. And we know that many TVs do not accept DSC too, so the AV pipeline would not have been inconsistent; with more black screens as result. It would have been a complete mess, worse than with SU. They then decided not to go there and not to roll out any software and go for board change, as they need to put at least one faster chip that could handle 40 Gbps. That's the whole trick here.
 
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TechEnthu

Member
Dolby Vision 4K 120Hz for XboxX -> AVR -> display - Will video pipeline become consistent?

This new mode is going through trials in Microsoft and will be enabled for XboxX soon. LG engineers have also stated that they are looking into solution for TVs in 1 series in the first instance.

This means that new AVRs would also need to release a software patch in order to enable DV 4K120Hz pass-through, to keep users connecting HDMI 2.1 sources to AVRs once this feature is available on the console and display.

If not, there will be another frustrating situation whereby new AVRs and AV processors will finally host multiple 40 Gbps ports and other features, but users would still prefer direct connection to more capable display, as entire pipeline with AVR in the middle is not consistent in DV 4K120 signalling.

Here is an example of how much bending is perceivable when using HDR10 vs. Dolby Vision.

I hope AVR companies are following what Microsoft and LG are working on.
 

WraithKlipsch

Novice Member
@TechEnthu. This is great info. Thank you. Almost makes me want to re-join pre-program. Hopefully, DV and 120 is doable on certain TVs on Xbox straight to TV applications soon...currently have 2020 LG CX.

Now, trying to find a suitable AVR, it seems more complications has been tossed into the mix. DV/60, or 120. SMH.

Oh well...we wait...

Update: So, not in pre-program currently; however, I have both DV 60 and 120 listed as options for my display as far as check boxes. [email protected] is not checked for the LG CX at this time as video mentioned, [email protected] is checked as working. Hopefully [email protected] is fixed/allowed soon if bandwidth or similar permits. Otherwise we have this weird scenario of deciding between 60 or 120 with different benefits. :|
 
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TechEnthu

Member
Now, trying to find a suitable AVR, it seems more complications has been tossed into the mix. DV/60, or 120. SMH.
It's doubtful that new AVRs will roll out software to support DV 4K120 until the solution becomes available on TVs first. But, it'd be good to hear that AV companies are also working on it together with others.
 

Jay53

Active Member
I think alot of people are going to be disappointed to find their TVs don't support DV 120 as I don't think there is a single TV on the market that currently gets a tick in the Xbox DV 120 box :(

For example LG are only looking at it for their 2021 models so that currently rules out the BX/CX or earlier.

Sony has always been a 120hz or DV

At least Samsung owners are in no doubt as Samsung don't support DV full stop lol

What isn't so clear is that even DV 60 is not always supported by dolby vision enabled TVs. The fact that Dolby say DV is refresh rate agnostic makes it strange that it's even an issue in the first place.

So DV 120 support is even more niche than 4k/120 or VRR support and I don't think it will be seen on AVRs next year let alone 2021
 
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TechEnthu

Member
For example LG are only looking at it for their 2021 models so that currently rules out the BX/CX or earlier.
LG first wants to see how the feature would work on 1 series. Everything else will depend on community pressure on LG and whether earlier generation TV have enough space in EDID to handle more modes and profiles.
The fact that Dolby say DV is refresh rate agnostic makes it strange that it's even an issue in the first place.
This depends on how DV profiles were baked in within TV. LG engineers might be able to surprise us.
So DV 120 support is even more niche than 4k/120 or VRR support and I don't think it will be seen on AVRs next year let alone 2021
True. Companies will need to follow developments elsewhere in order to support new features in future. At the end of the day, AVRs are heavilly marketed towards console folks.
 

Jay53

Active Member
LG first wants to see how the feature would work on 1 series. Everything else will depend on community pressure on LG and whether earlier generation TV have enough space in EDID to handle more modes and profiles.

This depends on how DV profiles were baked in within TV. LG engineers might be able to surprise us.

True. Companies will need to follow developments elsewhere in order to support new features in future. At the end of the day, AVRs are heavilly marketed towards console folks.

Agree with what you have written.

I don't think everyone does though as the last part about being heavily marketed towards console folks when you see comments that 99% of users won't need hdmi 2.1 :D
 

TechEnthu

Member
It's true that majority of audiophiles and movie lovers will not need those advanced features for some time, probably until higher refresh broadcast of fast-paced sport start. Gaming market is really small for AVRs as it is a new "1%" segment those devices are pitched to. Companies expect that segment to grow over time. If so, they will need to pay attention to features that matter to them. If not, leave it as it is.
 

WraithKlipsch

Novice Member
It is good news that the companies have taken heed on this especially with the low segment of roughly 1%. I guess they had to try to get out in front after they advertised it as 2.1 and then poof, not really 2.1...2.05. oh well. But the two fixes so far, 40Gbps or a add on box is a kick in the gut, but I think we have all stated that in the past. I have an install happening, and the real AVR is 6months to a couple years away :( At least the HDMI 2.1 cable issue may be addressed, just nothing (AVR) to stick it into for real 2.1.

Q: Realistically, we are at least mid-year 2022 before we have a Pre-amp that is 48Gbps and more than one input, right? So people with 3080s/3090s and an Xbox are in wait mode..... :|
 
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TechEnthu

Member
Q: Realistically, we are at least mid-year 2022 before we have a Pre-amp that is 48Gbps and more than one input, right? So people with 3080s/3090s and an Xbox are in wait mode..... :|
48 Gbps chips are not needed at the moment for AVRs, as those devices are not monitor friendly. Being TV-centric devices, AVRs with multiple 40 Gbps ports, such as upcoming Yamahas, are completely enough for 99.99% of users for several years. Mainstream TV market is not going to move towards 12-bit or 144 Hz for several years, so 40 Gbps is appropriate for 4K 120Hz 10-bit RGB signal.

New HDMI 2.1 UHD monitors that use full bandwidth of 48 Gbps will be coming this year already and will be supported by GPUs at 4K 144Hz 10-bit RGB. Nobody will be connecting those monitors to AVRs, not only because of shortage of 8 Gbps, but, most importantly, because of lack of support in AVRs EDID for other important features for monitors, such as more diverse resolutions, higher than 120 Hz refresh rates and lack of pass through for other editions of sync, such as FreeSync Premium (Pro). So, there is speed and there are features that need to be packaged together.

If and when AVR companies decide to support those graphics features, 48 Gbps chips will make sense. I guess high-end AV processors may be the first ones to embrace it. Full speed chips need to come in a new package with additional features for AVRs to become more attractive for PC users, and not only console users. It's about consistent video pipeline between PC -> AVR -> monitor. It will take a few years, until the first AVR company decides to deliver such package. They are at the very begining of entry into "PC world" through console gamer segment. There is a significant work to be done on AVRs to become truly monitor friendly on HDMI ports. Other solution is simply to introduce one or two DisplayPort interfaces to deliver said features. In 2023, the earliest, on some models. It will arrive, very slowly.
 

ssj3rd

Novice Member
So I’ve only read about the XSX with the Denon Adapter and everything seems fine. Nice.

But there were Problems with the PC and HDMI 2.1 as well, especially with 4k120/HDR/VRR, has someone tested this scenario with the new adapter?
Is here everything fine as well?
 

TechEnthu

Member
It seems that LG C1 owners could have hope of getting Dolby Vision 4K120 for gaming. It's unclear what happens with 2020 and 2019 models.

No 120Hz Dolby Vision gaming on Xbox? LG, Sony & Panasonic respond

Here is what LG, Sony and Panasonic had to say
www.flatpanelshd.com
www.flatpanelshd.com

Beta firmware has been released for LG C1 TVs and shared. Dolby Vision has been updated from 27.12 to 27.13. It now supports 4K120 DV. It will be the first 4K120 DV capable TV. In addition, XboxX menu shows DV 4K120 green tick. We are ever closer to public firmware update.
202106162100240-jpg-3144992-jpg.1529185
202106162108380-jpg-3144996-jpg.1529186

It's going to be interesting to see how AVR companies respond to this development on new LG TVs. None of new AVR models with HDMI 2.1 ports support DV 4K120. It is unclear whether second gen HDMI 2.1 chips would be capable of supporting it via firmware update.

There are only two possibilities for Dolby Vision 4K120 to be introduced on new AVRs:
1. firmware update, if the chip is hardware capable (we will not know this until HDMI 2.1 chip specification is revealed)
2. waiting for the third chip on AVRs (2022-2023)
 

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TechEnthu

Member
Theo tested new Onkyo pre-production unit with both consoles and Nvidia GPU. It seems 40 Gbps works out of the box - the first ever HDMI 2.1 AVR to deliver this without additional firmware, adapter box or board replacement. VRR seems to work too, as well as Dolby Vision 4K120Hz pass-through. Thumbs up to them, if all other audio features are polished too.
 
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TechEnthu

Member
The Flight Simulator will receive a major optimization overhaul on July 27th, together with the launch on XboxX. It will be locked to 4K 30 FPS on the console, but not with VRR on. Interesting to see how many frames are passed through HDMI 2.1 AVR at 4K120Hz setting once installed and tested with VRR. It is expected 60-90 FPS, depending on rendering settings and level of details. Looking forward to see some results posted by members enjoying this game.
 

sdrawkcab

Member
@TechEnthu
I would like to start out by thanking you for your work in this thread. I am currently on the market for a new receiver and am a bit bugged out by this HDMI 2.1-issue.

Your summary in the beginning of the thread is great!

I am currently choosing between Denon X3700H and the Marantz SR6015, and have a hard time making up my mind.

I am also wondering whether the hdmi box (which is being sent out by Sound United) is a temporary fix, until the production has been corrected and to accomodate early adopters. If that is the case I might hold off a bit. It seems as though Yamaha is actually changing their production to fix the issue before it reaches the customer, big props to them!

I am also hoping that Yamaha upgrades their HDMI-ports to 40Gbps, which was one of the reasons I didn’t look too much at their A2A-model.
 

TechEnthu

Member
I would like to start out by thanking you for your work in this thread
Thank you. I really appreciate your acknowledgement.
Your summary in the beginning of the thread is great!
The aim was to make it useful for anyone coming here to discover what was going on, which issues occured, solutions provided by companies and incoming launches of new AVRs and AV processors. I am really glad you found it useful, which makes me think it was worth every effort.
I am also wondering whether the hdmi box (which is being sent out by Sound United) is a temporary fix, until the production has been corrected and to accomodate early adopters.
The adapter box is a permanent solution for the models released in 2020. Those will NOT be offered HDMI board exchange.
New production units of 2020 models will host a new chip, so the adapter box will not be needed. It is currently not clear as to when new production units would land with retailers. You might be better off holding off for a moment.
am also hoping that Yamaha upgrades their HDMI-ports to 40Gbps
Yes, 2021 models of Yamaha will host all 40 Gbps ports, 7-in-3-out. For 2020 models, owners who wish to change the board need to register with Yamaha, the exchange programme starts this fall and will last two years. Be mindful that HDMI 2.1 features on new Yamahas will not work out of the box, until users install enabling firmware. We hope for the best, but we really do not know at this moment how reliably those AVRs would perform in video department, considering all past issues.

Currently, it seems that Onkyo is the only new AVR that has all HDMI 2.1 features operational out of the box, including Dolby Vision 4K120Hz pass-through, as suggested by Teoh's testing of pre-production unit on youtube. Thoose AVRs host 3x40 Gbps ports and 3x24 Gbps ports.
 

sdrawkcab

Member
Thank you. I really appreciate your acknowledgement.

The aim was to make it useful for anyone coming here to discover what was going on, which issues occured, solutions provided by companies and incoming launches of new AVRs and AV processors. I am really glad you found it useful, which makes me think it was worth every effort.

The adapter box is a permanent solution for the models released in 2020. Those will NOT be offered HDMI board exchange.
New production units of 2020 models will host a new chip, so the adapter box will not be needed. It is currently not clear as to when new production units would land with retailers. You might be better off holding off for a moment.

Yes, 2021 models of Yamaha will host all 40 Gbps ports, 7-in-3-out. For 2020 models, owners who wish to change the board need to register with Yamaha, the exchange programme starts this fall and will last two years. Be mindful that HDMI 2.1 features on new Yamahas will not work out of the box, until users install enabling firmware. We hope for the best, but we really do not know at this moment how reliably those AVRs would perform in video department, considering all past issues.

Currently, it seems that Onkyo is the only new AVR that has all HDMI 2.1 features operational out of the box, including Dolby Vision 4K120Hz pass-through, as suggested by Teoh's testing of pre-production unit on youtube. Thoose AVRs host 3x40 Gbps ports and 3x24 Gbps ports.
Is there a release window set for the Onkyo TX-RZ50?

It looks very promising, let’s just hope the audio technology is up to par with the rest of the features. 😊
 

sdrawkcab

Member
The OP article suggests that shippments should start Q3-Q4 in America and possibly Q1-Q2 in Europe.
Thanks for the info!
That’s unfortunately a bit late for me since I live in Europe and I’m hoping to buy something this fall. Oh well, let’s hope the production of the Denon/Marantz changes soon!

EDIT:
@TechEnthu
I have some new information from the official reseller of Denon in my country.

The Denon receivers which have been delivered until June are in need of the separate HDMI-box from Sound United. But the ones arriving in late July-August will have a new HDMI-chip in them. This is by no means an official statement I can link, but they are the official reseller in my country so I’d say it’s pretty legit.
 
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