HDMI 2.1 chips in AVRs and AV processors - transition to 40/48 Gbps, issues with video and graphics features

TechEnthu

Member
Are Sony and Microsoft planning on launching new games consoles or platforms in the next 5 to 7 years? No
'Not at the moment' is the correct answer. They have console development cycles in place that last for a few years. Look it up and research. Several complex elements are painstakingly put together by teams of experts who put in place long-term planning for such devices. Sony does not need to tell us that they are planning anything, for us to be aboe to think about it, based on previous launches and release cycles.

Had you written the same comment in 2014, you would have said that PS5 was never a planned thing. And you would be correct. It was not a thing at that point of time because it was not even conceived in their minds. Available tech back then did not allow planning for it. They could not plan for PS5 as AMD did not start working on Zen processors and RDNA graphics. If you look at historical console launches and use imagination to see patterns, your judgement would be more free from current moment or annoucements by companies.

You have no idea what those companies are planning to do. Neither do I. Sometimes those companies do not know either and take opportunities when they arise from elsewhere in PC industry. But saying blatantly 'no', as if you were an insider into their roadmap strategy or fortune teller, is nonsense, when you really do not know what's happening behind the curtain.
Are the TV manufacturers or those making the panels likely to start manufacturing 12 bit panels or TVs? No.
'Not at the moment on a mass scale' is the correct answer. We really do not know what's being brewed in laboratories, until we get some useful leaks via fortunate discussion groups. 12-bit mastering panels are already manufactured for professional purposes. Look it up. It is a matter of time when this tech makes a breakthrough into mainstream. The above long text in the post #19 does mention 12-bit TV panel by Hisense. It's already manufactured for commercial market and it was branded as early bird, early tech. Please read more carefully before posting incorrect info.

You ask questions and give definitive answers. Perhaps you could try to find out something new with us and ask for information rather than giving incorrect answers? It's much appreciated if you are willing to change the mind-set when interacting in this thread and acknowledge that we also know quite a bit. You seem very knowledgeable. And so are we. This 'no' answer to 12-bit remind me of folks from HD era who were saying back then that 4K TV was a stupid fantasy and that nobody would ever need it. And now, 10 years later, we have influencers roaming across many threads trying to convince people to buy products working well with 4K TVs. The world has changed and proved HD zealots wrong. The same will happen again, considering tech cycles, innovation and even a roadmap by UHD Alliance. Have a look when you get a spare moment.
Is there ever likely to be an 8K disc based media? Extremely unlikely.
Yep. 8K disks might never see a day light, but then, who cares? If they do emerge, good, if they do not, it's not a tragedy. No one will cry over it. Digital content has exploded, taken over and devices are more capable of wider online throughput. This will, gradually, bring higher bit rates and quality of streamed content, far better than Netlfix currently offers. New efficient codecs are emerging too, such as AV1 and HEVC-266. AV1 is already in new GPUs. It looks good. It needs fine-tuning. So, things are going in the right direction, step by step.
Even if 8K content is made available, the chances are that it will be delivered via IP directly to the TV and will therefore not need HDMI to convey it from a source to said display.
That's what we are hoping for in this decade - to finally get AV over IP. And not just to feed TVs, but also to feed AVRs and AV processors. But first 4K content, which several engineering groups are working on. There are hurdles to be dealt with for the mainstream. There is HDMI-orthodoxy to be dealt with too. Money needs to be invested in hardware and software. Future gen of TVs and AV devices will need to get rid off current pathetic Ethernet ports of 100 Mbps and slow WiFi chips and install faster ports; much faster. There is one new TV with WiFi 6 and SoC from MediaTek that supports better connectivity, so it's coming, in baby steps. Then adaptation and packaging of AV over IP solutions. It will take 5-7 years for initial adoption in high-end devices.

There was a great discussion in another group about this solution being integrated within future gen of AVRs and AV processors. Fascinating stuff and possibilities for future consumers! Again, it's not happening now and no company has announced anything. Why would they? It's in experimental stage. We expect halo-reference products in CEC or Computex in 2-3 years. Sometimes companies pick up new ideas from consumers and groups. It's fluid. But, there are early birds on the ground. Thinking about AV over IP in AVRs is based on emerging solutions, such as Audio over IP, which will be rolled out to Trinnov AV processors this year in a package of Ravenna/AES67 standards. Actually, there is an article here on this solution.

Audio over IP will allow us to stream live concert from another part of the globe, directly to our AVR's speakers, via subscription app. Your friend will be able to sing into microphone in Sydney and broadcast it to your AVR's speakers in LA (you can mute it, if you do not enjoy their voice). Fantastic opportunity! Audio over IP is the first baby step towards audio-video over IP in commercial deployment. It's currently in broadcasting, it's expensive and more complex. For the mainstream, R&D needs to be done to drive prices down and encourage AVR and AV processor makers to get onboard. TVs may kickstart first. IP-based content is an excellent way to deal with old fashioned HDMI-only approach. You are right. We would become free to use or not to use those HDMI ports. More options for everyone. Some legacy dongles and sources will still be linked, but IP will modernize delivery of AV content over Ethernet ports and WiFi, for years to come.

Picture this. Year 2026. Imagine Amazon Fire stick 4K with Ethernet plug instead of HDMI. Less processing and conversion in the stick itself, faster link. Imagine one high-end model of AVR or AV processor that has WiFi 7 (2024) user-replaceable module on board. This is a new concept of more modular AVR that does not become obsolete quickly when tech moves on and allows us users to replace some easy modules, like in PC. Now imagine modernised I/O:
  • 4-in-2-out legacy HDMI 2.1 (or higher) ports managed by one or two chips
  • 2-in-2-out usb-c high speed (80 Gbps) ports tunnelling DisplayPort data from source to display
  • most importantly, 4 Ethernet ports for AV over IP (say 25 Gbps RJ45 - those are fully bidirectional and speeds can be aggregated via software for those who need it).

That's about 12-14 ports. Today's better AVRs or processors already host 10-11, so similar, but how much more diverse and versatile options. Your new Amazon Fire stick 4K would not be taking content from home WiFi, but directly from AVR's Ethernet port - much faster and more reliable. No more additional HDMI-LAN extender and conversion boxes. AVR de facto becomes a AV-computer hybrid with integrated IP Tx-Rx silicon. You need to put CPU with integrated graphics to deal with computations of IP data and conversion for HDMI or DP displays, which is what home PC does today. Isolate well AV pathways with high-quality PCB 12-14 layer boards. You can extend IP data from AVR to another room with simple Ethernet cable. No more HDMI conduits. You can hook AVR to Ethernet switch and do all sorts of things with data. In home theatre, you can feed content to AVR, live or in files, from any capable device over traditional cables, Ethernet cable or WiFi instead. You can skip Ethernet cables to feed any IP content from your home network to AVR's fast WiFi chip, to be displayed over cables or even sent wirelessly to any display you have at home (check out new wireless monitors). IP will bring possibilities and solutions that few people think about today. And yet, once it arrives and is adopted over several years, the whole world would simply embrace it, in the same way as we embraced HDMI in mid-2000.

Here is a small diagram of how future AVR could interact with IP AV content.

AV over IP.png
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Here's a word that tells you how an AVR feals with IP content already. ARC. You'll more than likely be accesding such content via the TV and not an external device. Most people wont even have an AV receiver and they'll be using a soundbar or something similar. AV receivers are not big sellers and are decling in sales while sounbars are very poular. How many HDMI inputs do you get on a soundbar and why aren't you moaning about them all not being 8K compliant?


And by the way, what HDMI 2.1 equipped devices do you actually have? I'm expecting to hear you have an least a TV, a games console and an AV receiver given how important you think HDMI version 2.1 is?????


By the way, I've not addressed the rest of what yiu've posted because o a lot of it is factually incorrect and anyone in the know who reads it will know this without me pointing it out.




What is it you are trying to achieve. Are you actually trying to create an HDMI version 2.1 cult?




Who cares, Whatever will be will be. Just get on with it and go deal with the here and now :) No, you cannot predict the future by scaping the web.:nono:
 
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TechEnthu

Member
By the way, tvOS is in the public domain and isn't leaked. Get your facts right. Apple release it for use in beta form for developers and anyone can sign up and attain it. The current beta version is 14.7.
Sure. I heard about it in another forum before release, so wasn't aware it was released. It's really a minor thing in entire article about more important things, but glad you are pedantic about information. I am happy to correct any information that is not right. Have no problem with that whatsoever. That's why we are here. To clarify what matters.

However, I have a problem with the way you communicate your posts in this thread. Please stop using language such as "get your facts right". If there is anything to be corrected in the first place, it is the tone with which you post messages here. I do not accept it in this thread. Please change this.

You will first need to give people a benefit of a doubt before you make any judgment and post it. You also need check with us whether we are aware that any information mentioned became public. Instead of writing "Get your facts right", I actually expect from you to ask first "Hey folks, I read your post. Have you heard that this or that has been now published? Please update your records" or similar. Let us know, but change your tone first.

I am happy to get any advise about incorrect information and be pointed in the right direction. With the right tone. Thank you.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I don't want to be pedantic about anything. To tell you the truth, I'm lost as to what purpose this thread actually serves?

Yes, the HDMI 2.1 bug thread had a purpose, but this one …
 
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TechEnthu

Member
I don't want to be pedabtic about anything. To tell you the truth, I'm lost as to what purpose this thread actually serves?

Yes, the HDMI 2.1 bug thread had a purpose, but this one …
I will report you. I am aware of what you are doing. Please leave this thread, especially now when you do not see its purpose. You have no reason to waste your time here, therefore leave. Thank you.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Report me for what? Feel free to do so, I'm not aware of any infractions or breaches of the board's rules. I do see the purpose of this thread, the issue you have is that I see it!

I'll also post where I like thank you.

I could have legimately raised a report relating to this thread being a mirror of another topic. You don't appear to be discussing anything different here?



By the way, please start posting the sources you keep quoting so people can get a sense of who is saying what exactly. It is bad manners to recite a source without actually indicating what that source is.
 
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AdtAdt57

Active Member
That’s the issue. I’m waiting for the new Philips 806 which only has 2 x 2.1 and 1 x earc. If I didn’t like ambilight so much I’d just get a LG CX.

So im good with the just 2 for now but if wanted to get the Xbox as example another 1 would be good lol. It’s just having the options :).
As folk remind me, manufacturers are not supposed to say HDMI 2.1 only quote the specific HDMI 2.1 ‘features‘ it has.
I’m also waiting, as I’m hooked on ambilight, according to the specs the 806/856 have the following on all HDMI ports:
As you say though, only eARC on HDMI 2…
… this would be my input/output to my AVC so will be good depending on the actual ‘features‘ of eARC. My Philips 9002 has eARC, but only supports standard Dolby 5.1 not the higher quality formats.

Wouldn't it help if other devices, like my Oppo 203, had two HDMI outputs? - one for high bandwidth Video to the TV, with the other for high end Audio to my AVC. Then I don’t care about AVC limitations with video or low spec eARC.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Both ARC and eARC are only ever available via one of a TV's HDMI inputs. No TV has more than one ARC or eARC enabled input.

Conventional ARC is limited to no more than 5.1 SD quaity audio such as DTS or Dolby Digital or no more than 2 channels of lossless PCM data. You'd also be able to convey the slighly better quality, but still SD Dolby Digital Plus (DD+) via conventional ARC. DD+ is used by most streaming service and can also be used in association with Atmos. The Atmos metadata can be packaged with DD+ and conveyed via both conventional ARC or eARC.

eARC (enhanced Audio Retrurn Channel) allows for HD formats such as Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio and can also convey multichannel PCM data. None of the sources onboard the TV would need this, but it does allow you to connect external sources directly to the TV's own HDMI inputs to then pass such audio through and out to an eARCenable AVR using the TV's eARC enabled HDMI input.

You only really need to connect a source directly to a TV if that source outputs video that your AV receiver cannot handle and passthrough. If the source's video capabilies do not exceed the video handling capabilities of your AV receiver then there's no need to connect that device's video output directly to a TV and you can simply connect the device directly to said AVR, pass the video through the AVR to the TV and let the AVR source the audio via the same HDMI connection from the source to the AV receiver.

Many owners of the new gen games consoles connect their HDMI version 2.1 equipped consoles directly to a TV if they've an older AVR that isn't HDMI version 2.1 compliant and if that AVR isn't able to handle 4K/120Hz encoded video. This is where eARC comes into play. The multichannel PCM audio that you ordinarilly get in association with games can be passed through the TV and out to an oldeer AVR via eARC as long as both the TV and the AVR are eARC enabled.

Wouldn't it help if other devices, like my Oppo 203, had two HDMI outputs? - one for high bandwidth Video to the TV, with the other for high end Audio to my AVC. Then I don’t care about AVC limitations with video or low spec eARC.


There's technically nothing to be benefitted by using the dual HDMI outputs on your UHD disc player as long as the AV receiver you have can handle the video being output by that player. Simply connect just the one HDMI output to the AV receiver and connect the AV receiver's HDMI output to one of the TV's HDMI inputs.

The AV receiver itself is nothing more than an HDMI repeater as far as the video signal is concerned. AS long as you are not engaging any video scaling or processing onboard the AV receiver then the quality of the video will be no different to what it would have been had you made a direct connection to the display from the source. You can get lag, but this is of little if any importance unless you are a gamer using a games console.

You fail to mention the make or model of AV receiver you are using within your post? If the AVCA110 in you sig then you'd not need to use the dual outputs on your player and can simply connect it directly to one of the conventional HDMI inputs on your A110. None of your HDMI sources would need to be or benefit from a direct HDMI connection to the TV. HDMI version 2.1 and or the additional features associated with it do not really have any impact upon your current sources.
 
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AdtAdt57

Active Member
Both ARC and eARC are only ever available via one of a TV's HDMI inputs. No TV has more than one ARC or eARC enabled input.

Conventional ARC is limited to no more than 5.1 SD quaity audio such as DTS or Dolby Digital or no more than 2 channels of lossless PCM data. You'd also be able to convey the slighly better quality, but still SD Dolby Digital Plus (DD+) via conventional ARC. DD+ is used by most streaming service and can also be used in association with Atmos. The Atmos metadata can be packaged with DD+ and conveyed via both conventional ARC or eARC.

eARC (enhanced Audio Retrurn Channel) allows for HD formats such as Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD Master Audio and can also convey multichannel PCM data. None of the sources onboard the TV would need this, but it does allow you to connect external sources directly to the TV's own HDMI inputs to then pass such audio through and out to an eARCenable AVR using the TV's eARC enabled HDMI input.

You only really need to connect a source directly to a TV if that source outputs video that your AV receiver cannot handle and passthrough. If the source's video capabilies do not exceed the video handling capabilities of your AV receiver then there's no need to connect that device's video output directly to a TV and you can simply connect the device directly to said AVR, pass the video through the AVR to the TV and let the AVR source the audio via the same HDMI connection from the source to the AV receiver.

Many owners of the new gen games consoles connect their HDMI version 2.1 equipped consoles directly to a TV if they've an older AVR that isn't HDMI version 2.1 compliant and if that AVR isn't able to handle 4K/120Hz encoded video. This is where eARC comes into play. The multichannel PCM audio that you ordinarilly get in association with games can be passed through the TV and out to an oldeer AVR via eARC as long as both the TV and the AVR are eARC enabled.



There's technically nothing to be benefitted by using the dual HDMI outputs on your UHD disc player as long as the AV receiver you have can handle the video being output by that player. Simply connect just the one HDMI output to the AV receiver and connect the AV receiver's HDMI output to one of the TV's HDMI inputs.

The AV receiver itself is nothing more than an HDMI repeater as far as the video signal is concerned. AS long as you are not engaging any video scaling or processing onboard the AV receiver then the quality of the video will be no different to what it would have been had you made a direct connection to the display from the source. You can get lag, but this is of little if any importance unless you are a gamer using a games console.

You fail to mention the make or model of AV receiver you are using within your post? If the AVCA110 in you sig then you'd not need to use the dual outputs on your player and can simply connect it directly to one of the conventional HDMI inputs on your A110. None of your HDMI sources would need to be or benefit from a direct HDMI connection to the TV. HDMI version 2.1 and or the additional features associated with it do not really have any impact upon your current sources.

Thanks @dante0, just a few comments back…

Actually, the Philips 9002 does have ARC enabled on all 4 HDMI connections, however, it only works with the first connected AV Amp - sending audio from any of the HDMI to the AV Amp. From the manual “All HDMI connections on the TV can offer the Audio Return Channel (ARC) signal. But once you have connected the Home Theatre System, the TV can only send the ARC signal to this HDMI connection.

As for eARC, it’s the ‘allows’ comment for higher resolution audio that concerns me. The Philips 806/856 spec just says eARC on HDMI 2, but folk have been concerned the specific formats aren’t quoted.

The point I was trying to make with dual HDMI outputs is that if high end AV sources did have a separate HDMI output for audio we wouldn’t need to get into the ‘leapfrogging’ issues with complex video signals. While I have used AV Amps to ’process’ video in the past I now only use it to passthrough. With my kit I could certainly see an improvement, so a technical benefit with ’some’ 4K video content connected directly to the TV, with only audio from the Oppo to the AVC.

Yes, it is an AVC-A110 but I’m hoping this will last some years for sources soon available that needs the higher spec of a, hopefully, soon Philips 806/856 with 4K/120Hz/VRR…
 
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TechEnthu

Member
For folks who have slightly older AVRs, without eARC. You can still get access to eARC on AVR by using devices, such as Sharc eARC extractor.

If your TV can handle HDMI 2.1 sources and you have perfectly capable AV Receiver from pre-eARC models that you want to continue to use, Sharc audio extractor might be a good idea for you rather than buying completely new AVR with native eARC feature.

There are many users who are happy with pre-eARC gear and want to continue to enjoy those devices. Solutions such as Sharc can bridge the gap with this feaure.
 
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TechEnthu

Member
The HDMI adapter boxes started to arrive to owners. We have some initial photos of HMDI info screen for the connection XboxX+adapter box+AVR+LG TV.
IMG_20210530_161136.jpg

HDMI info screen on TV reads FRL4 signal, pixel clock 1187 MHz and bandwidth 11.8 Gbps per lane, which brings us to 32 Gbps. This LG TV C9 is currently showing 4K120 RGB 8-bit signal.

Users are asked to try to engage 10-bit in any game, in addition to settings above, to bump it up to 40 Gbps. Above TMDS clock is ok. We need to see: FRL5 information, 10-bit and bandwidth ~14.3 Gbps per lane near TMDS clock. And VRR engaged. Good luck with playing with settings.
 
Can I ask who this 'we' you keep mentioning is?

Also, what are you trying to achieve? You mentioned holding manufacturers to account but for what exactly?

I certainly don't see any evidence of anybody being held to account and other than the regurgitation of information from the internet, some of it more accurate than others, I am struggling to see what point is trying to be made. Certainly not one that needs to be made in multiple threads which is how I arrived here in the first place.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Thanks @dante0, just a few comments back…

Actually, the Philips 9002 does have ARC enabled on all 4 HDMI connections, however, it only works with the first connected AV Amp - sending audio from any of the HDMI to the AV Amp. From the manual “All HDMI connections on the TV can offer the Audio Return Channel (ARC) signal. But once you have connected the Home Theatre System, the TV can only send the ARC signal to this HDMI connection.

As for eARC, it’s the ‘allows’ comment for higher resolution audio that concerns me. The Philips 806/856 spec just says eARC on HDMI 2, but folk have been concerned the specific formats aren’t quoted.

The point I was trying to make with dual HDMI outputs is that if high end AV sources did have a separate HDMI output for audio we wouldn’t need to get into the ‘leapfrogging’ issues with complex video signals. While I have used AV Amps to ’process’ video in the past I now only use it to passthrough. With my kit I could certainly see an improvement, so a technical benefit with ’some’ 4K video content connected directly to the TV, with only audio from the Oppo to the AVC.

Yes, it is an AVC-A110 but I’m hoping this will last some years for sources soon available that needs the higher spec of a, hopefully, soon Philips 806/856 with 4K/120Hz/VRR…


Only one input on any TV will be ARC enabled. ARC enabled indicates the input that can be repurposed by ARC to convey just audio from the TV back to an ARC enabled AV receiver's or a soundbar's ARC enabled output. The other HDMI inputs on the TV are just regular HDMI inputs which you'd ordinarilly be able to access audio via and then output it via the ARC enabled output.

The services you access via the TV's own onboard tuners or the installed SMART apps will not need the ability to access higher bandwidth HD formatted audio. Broadcasters and streaming services do not use these higher bandwidth HD formats. It would only be if wanting to pass the audio sourced via an external HDMI device connected to one of the other HDMI inputs on the TV where you'd benefit from eARC. These would be the only sources outputting HD formatted audio or multichannel PCM audio. eARC will convey these HD formatts though if you have ever the need to access them via the TV and convey them to your AVR.

The player has 2 outputs to account for older AV receiver'or legacy devices that may include the ability to handle the HD audio formats, but not the type or resolution of video that the UHD player can output. This simply enables the video to be sent to a compliant display while the audio is sent to a device that cannot handle that video. You'll not get better audio by using these igf your AV receiver can handle both the video and audio commonly associated with that players capabilities. You only need connect the main HDMI output from your player to you AVR and your AV receiver can handle anything your plyer is able to output to it.

You don't need either eARC or the dual HDMI outputs on your player with your setup. You've not the legacy components that would benefit from using these.

As an example of when the dual outputs would have been useful I can relate to you my own experience of them. I used to have an AV receiver that wasn't able to handle Dolby Vision HDR. In order to convey the DV HDR video to the TV, I used the video output from the player to the TV while using the second audio output to convey the HD formatted audio to the AV receiver. The second output isn't there to give you access to better audio and simply delivers the same audio you'd have gotton had both the vedie and audo been conveyed to the AV receiver via the same main output. The second output is also ordinarilly restricted to HDCP 1.4 to again ensure backwatd compatability with older devices.

It is worth noting that you'd only need the Sound United adapator if wanting or needing to pass 4K/120Hz encoded video through the AV receiver. You don't currebtly have a source device that has this ability. Yes, your TV can handle 4K/120Hz, but you've no sources that include HDMI version 2.1 or that would output 4K/120Hz. The TV doesn't need the devices being connected to it to also be HDMI version 2.1 compliant.
 
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whitehart

Well-known Member
Can I ask who this 'we' you keep mentioning is?

Also, what are you trying to achieve? You mentioned holding manufacturers to account but for what exactly?

I certainly don't see any evidence of anybody being held to account and other than the regurgitation of information from the internet, some of it more accurate than others, I am struggling to see what point is trying to be made. Certainly not one that needs to be made in multiple threads which is how I arrived here in the first place.
.
 

TechEnthu

Member
Can I ask who this 'we' you keep mentioning is?
Of course you can. 'We' is us, members of consumer communities.
Also, what are you trying to achieve? You mentioned holding manufacturers to account but for what exactly?
It reads in the opening post. There is a short historical summary of how new features have been rolled-out, what did not work, what major actions have taken place, what has been successful, what has not been successful as yet and what is planned ahead. Apart from observing how well features work in new products and how companies react to glitches and features that do not work well, this space is opened to all to ask questions about those features and try to clarify what they wish to find out.
I certainly don't see any evidence of anybody being held to account and other than the regurgitation of information from the internet, some of it more accurate than others, I am struggling to see what point is trying to be made. Certainly not one that needs to be made in multiple threads which is how I arrived here in the first place.
If you struggle to see the point, that's fine. In that case, this thread is not going to be useful for you. Information provided attempts to be as accurate as possible. If there is anything to be corrected, that's fine too. It will be updated when possible. Members are encouraged to inform us here with more up to date information, if such exists and share their experiences of using combinations of new tech features. There is no thread that is specifically dedicated to this topic across different devices. For example, we still need to find out why first gen HDMI 21. chips were faulty. Several groups are trying to find out, which is great for overall understanding. This will help us understand why new adapter box works well. It's a technical curiosity.

We live in a free society where topics/threads can be created and explored by those who are interested to contribute. Transitions to new technologies are not always as smooth, so there is a need to observe what is happening across the board. This thread brings this information together in easily digestable way. Those transitions often last for one or two generations of devices, so it's useful to be aware of starting points, current developments and next steps, and what it might mean for current and future users of devices.

This is the first ever online space where I meet with rare openly negative comments for such topic. There is no reason for negativity. It is a bit disappointing, but moving on, regardless. Whoever does not find the thread useful, it's fine. They are free not to participate and move onto content they prefer more. It is as simple at that.

As a rule, this topic attracts praise in several international discussion groups for providing summary and useful perspective of how situation looks like and where things are moving towards. People who enjoy AV devices, including myself, can find out easily accessible information that otherwise takes more time to research individually. The word 'transition' is the key. It takes a longer shot at events. It's not a short-term reaction to any individual news. News are of course welcomed from members and those contribute to growing pool of knowledge. It's more holistic in nature. I hope this answers the questions. Now back to solutions for users and how reliable those are in video and graphics department, which is of our interest here. There are good news today, actually.
 
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TechEnthu

Member
I will try again, to avoid being branded as a 'duplicate'. Positive and relevant news for this thread is that 40 Gbps signal on the new adapter box seems to be working well with XboxX and AVRs, as reported by several home users. It is FRL5 signal, TMDS clock 1485 MHz and bandwidth 14.8 Gbps per lane. The signal was displayed on LG TV C9 showing 4K120 RGB 10-bit. It is to be clarified whether VRR works alongside 40 Gbps signal.

Once again, well done to Sound United for providing working solution for users of the console and their AVRs. We are curious as to how they were able to achieve this. This forum is technical in its nature and we would like to learn why the new solution works and why the old HDMI 2.1 chip from Panasonic Solutions in AVRs was faulty. If any member has an insight into technical intricacies and corrections made, please let us know here, so that we could understand why signals via new adapter box work as intended. We will become knowledgeable as to why new edition of HDMI 2.1 chip in the adapter box works better, which is of our interest here.

Post should never be removed for being informative, inquisitive and, above all, positive in its nature, especially if it is relevant. Thank you to moderators for allowing this.
 
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AdtAdt57

Active Member
I will try again, to avoid being branded as a 'duplicate'. Positive and relevant news for this thread is that 40 Gbps signal on the new adapter box seems to be working well with XboxX and AVRs, as reported by several home users. It is FRL5 signal, TMDS clock 1485 MHz and bandwidth 14.8 Gbps per lane. The signal was displayed on LG TV C9 showing 4K120 RGB 10-bit.

Once again, well done to Sound United for providing working solution for users of the console and their AVRs. We are curious as to how they were able to achieve this. This forum is technical in its nature and we would like to learn why the new solution works and why the old HDMI 2.1 chip from Panasonic Solutions in AVRs was faulty. If any member has an insight into technical intricacies and corrections made, please let us know here, so that we could understand why signals via new adapter box work as intended. We will become knowledgeable as to why new edition of HDMI 2.1 chip in the adapter box works better, which is of our interest here.

Post should never be removed for being informative, inquisitive and, above all, positive in its nature, especially if they are relevant. Thank you to moderators for allowing this.
Unless I’ve missed it, does this mean VRR is also working and all other potential issues with the Sound United HDMI ADAPTER KIT?
 

TechEnthu

Member
Unless I’ve missed it, does this mean VRR is also working and all other potential issues with the Sound United HDMI ADAPTER KIT?
40 Gbps signal itself works. I do not know about VRR at the moment. 4K120 VRR can be enabled in console settings, but I am not currently aware of reports whether VRR passes alongside 40 Gbps signal and how gaming images look like. Posts with video links should appear soon.

We are also waiting to see whether the adapter box could improve the signal from Nvidia and AMD's GPUs. Without the box, 40 Gbps signal from GPUs worked, but there were many reports that adding VRR to the juice was unreliable, causing instability in moving images.
 
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Of course you can. 'We' is us, members of consumer communities.

It reads in the opening post. There is a short historical summary of how new features have been rolled-out, what did not work, what major actions have taken place, what has been successful, what has not been successful as yet and what is planned ahead. Apart from observing how well features work in new products and how companies react to glitches and features that do not work well, this space is opened to all to ask questions about those features and try to clarify what they wish to find out.

If you struggle to see the point, that's fine. In that case, this thread is not going to be useful for you. Information provided attempts to be as accurate as possible. If there is anything to be corrected, that's fine too. It will be updated when possible. Members are encouraged to inform us here with more up to date information, if such exists and share their experiences of using combinations of new tech features. There is no thread that is specifically dedicated to this topic across different devices. For example, we still need to find out why first gen HDMI 21. chips were faulty. Several groups are trying to find out, which is great for overall understanding. This will help us understand why new adapter box works well. It's a technical curiosity.

We live in a free society where topics/threads can be created and explored by those who are interested to contribute. Transitions to new technologies are not always as smooth, so there is a need to observe what is happening across the board. This thread brings this information together in easily digestable way. Those transitions often last for one or two generations of devices, so it's useful to be aware of starting points, current developments and next steps, and what it might mean for current and future users of devices.

This is the first ever online space where I meet with rare openly negative comments for such topic. There is no reason for negativity. It is a bit disappointing, but moving on, regardless. Whoever does not find the thread useful, it's fine. They are free not to participate and move onto content they prefer more. It is as simple at that.

As a rule, this topic attracts praise in several international discussion groups for providing summary and useful perspective of how situation looks like and where things are moving towards. People who enjoy AV devices, including myself, can find out easily accessible information that otherwise takes more time to research individually. The word 'transition' is the key. It takes a longer shot at events. It's not a short-term reaction to any individual news. News are of course welcomed from members and those contribute to growing pool of knowledge. It's more holistic in nature. I hope this answers the questions. Now back to solutions for users and how reliable those are in video and graphics department, which is of our interest here. There are good news today, actually.

Perhaps you are trying to do much with one thread as it is certainly confusing as to how much of the information relates to your aims. Not sure what AoIP has to do with the price of fish for example.

I still don't see the purpose of your aims but at least they are clearer now. Personally some matrix of known working features and perhaps those promised might be more useful to folks. I doubt many really care all that much why something is broken or the history behind it more than they do that it is broken.

I don't think anyone has been negative to your posts as such and not sure why you felt the need to suggest it from a few simple questions. However, perhaps there is something in the way you respond? Certainly patronising folks about a free society and reminding them that they are free not to post and to move on isn't going to win you any friends.

As for me I will not post more on this thread and will move on in the hopes that you don't spam anymore threads I happen to come across.
 

TechEnthu

Member
Perhaps you are trying to do much with one thread as it is certainly confusing as to how much of the information relates to your aims. Not sure what AoIP has to do with the price of fish for example.
We are curious as to how well HDMI 2.1 chips for AV devices perform across motherboards installed in AVRs and AV processors. This single issue directly drives business decisions as to whether to postpone new boards for a year or so for entire line-up of products for several companies. It is actually pretty important one. Those chips are sourced from a few places and directly influence the package of HDMI 2.1 features delivered through AV devices. It takes time to undestand behaviour and functionality of chips due to production cycles and interoperability testing with different source and sink devices. Those arrive at different times into the market. As mentioned, this thread takes a longer look. I think this is valuable for consumers to know.

As regards to AoIP, I simply replied to a member who mentioned it as one of future solutions for TV. I added AV devices to it. Minor side information. The member shared an inspiring idea with me. I hope you don't mind.
Personally some matrix of known working features and perhaps those promised might be more useful to folks
It's a good idea. Thank you for suggesting it. I will look at it. There are features already mentioned and there could be even more information. I agree with you.
I doubt many really care all that much why something is broken or the history behind it more than they do that it is broken
That's ok too. We are curious about both aspects. Consumers who happen to be tech enthusiasts too are encouraged to be curious about why things work or do not work and what kind of tech solution is behind a new product. It is up to them to develop curiosity if they wish so. This thread also facilitates and nurtures curiosity by asking questions.

patronising folks about a free society and reminding them that they are free not to post and to move on isn't going to win you any friends.
This thread is not about looking for friends. It's more technical and consumer-oriented, raising awareness of what is going on with HDMI 2.1 solutions for new generation of AV devices. No one is patronised here. There are just a few polite ways to communicate to members to move on, if they are not willing to make positive contribution or if there are attempts to undemine the thread's integrity. Opening post and thread name are very clear what this topic is about. Anyone is welcomed to read, ask questions and make contribution to our understadning of the situation with various devices.
I will not post more on this thread and will move on in the hopes that you don't spam anymore threads I happen to come across.
Speaking of spam, above statement was not necessary and it is irrelevant for this thread, but I wish you good luck in finding information you are looking for.
 
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TechEnthu

Member
Hello everyone. There are updates in the Opening Post, following suggestions above and my original intention to provide more and less known links. Relevant events, brands and features received links to ~30 sources of information, such as press releases from different companies, review and tech websites, interviews with insiders, product managers, AV engineers, etc. Please feel free to click on whatever you might find interesting or relevant for your current of potential future devices. If there is any mistake, please let me know and I shall update it. If you have any new relevant information, please share it here and contribute. It's a work in progress. Thank you for stopping by.

There are also a few new interesting bits.

 
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TechEnthu

Member
"Adapter box 2.0" hint from Sound United
A week ago or so I mentioned this box 2.0, following an interview by Roland Krüger, the Head of Technical Marketing, for German tech audience. It took me some time to find official information.

denon-jpg.3135363.jpg

Translation reads: "expansion hardware for more 4K120/8K60 inputs"

This product should be in a post-design stage now and available in Q4, for anyone who wishes to purchase an expansion to connectivity for 2020/2021 models. It should be a stand-alone product, unrelated to current adapter box, something equivalent to usb hub in computer word or HDMI switch if you will. I hope we get some official demo before this hits the markets . Most likely layout is 3-in-1-out. Pricing is unknown at the moment. How much would you pay for three ports?
 
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TechEnthu

Member
According to this listing from Crutchfield, new Yamahas will host one HDMI 2.1 Tx-Rx chip, with four ports in 3-in-1-out layout, each with 40 Gbps speed. All other six ports (4-in-2-out) will either be 18 Gbps or a mix of 18 Gbps and 24 Gbps. We are looking forward to see testing and performance results.
 
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TechEnthu

Member
The competition under "HDMI 2.1" banner is heating up seriously. Even without consumers knowledge as to how well new HDMI 2.1 chips are going to perform in video and graphics department, Yamaha is enticing Australian audience with whapping 10 years warranty period for the top model RX-A8A only (5+5 upon registration). Will retailers in other countries follow suit with similarly aggressive competition for the slice of the market share?
The company might worry that the price for the top model is so high that they need to give consumers an additional carrot. Will consumers bite the carrot or wait to see independent reviews and cleared situation about the speed of those chips and ports? I would wait until clarified and tested.
 
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