HDMI 2.1 chips in AVRs and AV processors - transition to 40/48 Gbps, issues with video and graphics features

Cblan1224

Active Member
Thank you so much for the kind words.

We were wondering abot this a few days ago, but no one has so far posted any testing results that I would be aware of. Quite interested to see whether FRL6 signal works (48 Gbps), alongside all other features. If yes, that would be the first fully fat chip from the third gen installed in AV device.
I edited my previous comment. It was a bit late when I first posted. Appreciate the response! Glad to know you are still paying attention because your breakdown is really the only thing we have when it comes to much of this.
 

TechEnthu

Member
Anyway, I built a few amps so I'll be looking for a processor on the next round. I'll be looking for the full 48gbps, but we'll see. That's why I was interested to see if the anthem thing worked out.
Little is known about the third gen of HDMI 2.1 chips for AVRs/AVPs. Those chips are in development, that's for sure. And next gen of AVRs/AVPs boards will feature those chips. Watch out the annoucements by Trinnov, as their engineers told us during interviews on Audioholics that they will only install fully working chips once everything is ironed out. They would not be saying this wihtout a good reason, as Their AV processors cost almost €20,000, so better to wait until all issues are sorted out.
 

Jay53

Well-known Member
Are you on the latest firmware that released this month? Change log says it fixes VRR issue with PS5.

I have an x1700 but despite having auto updates on I am still on previous firmware so not sure if auto update is working or just a phased rolled out over the air.
 
Are you on the latest firmware that released this month? Change log says it fixes VRR issue with PS5.

I have an x1700 but despite having auto updates on I am still on previous firmware so not sure if auto update is working or just a phased rolled out over the air.
I am even one firmware higher than the one that is supposed to fox vrr
 

Jay53

Well-known Member
I am even one firmware higher than the one that is supposed to fox vrr

I am not sure if I am up to date or not

I checked via avr general menu and version says 4400-2711-9053-7040 which predates June updates which I think are 4400-2780-9053-7040. What does your says via the avr menu?

However, if I check via HEOS app it says avr is on 2.47.350 which as far as I can tell means it's on the firmware released 15/06/2022 i.e one further on from the 8th June release that change log says fixed VRR.

Its almost like the heos thinks it's up to date, the avr thinks it's up to date (check for updates both come back with already up to date) yet the firmware version according to the avr is earlier lol

They really don't make it easy (no way of checking heos version via avr menus) especially now there is no way to update firmware via website and usb stick
 
I am not sure if I am up to date or not

I checked via avr general menu and version says 4400-2711-9053-7040 which predates June updates which I think are 4400-2780-9053-7040. What does your says via the avr menu?

However, if I check via HEOS app it says avr is on 2.47.350 which as far as I can tell means it's on the firmware released 15/06/2022 i.e one further on from the 8th June release that change log says fixed VRR.

Its almost like the heos thinks it's up to date, the avr thinks it's up to date (check for updates both come back with already up to date) yet the firmware version according to the avr is earlier lol

They really don't make it easy (no way of checking heos version via avr menus) especially now there is no way to update firmware via website and usb stick
I'll check at home and let you know. Before the update VRR would give washed out colors when activated with HDR. After the fix it works better but with this white screen flashes.
 

Cblan1224

Active Member
Little is known about the third gen of HDMI 2.1 chips for AVRs/AVPs. Those chips are in development, that's for sure. And next gen of AVRs/AVPs boards will feature those chips. Watch out the annoucements by Trinnov, as their engineers told us during interviews on Audioholics that they will only install fully working chips once everything is ironed out. They would not be saying this wihtout a good reason, as Their AV processors cost almost €20,000, so better to wait until all issues are sorted out.
Indeed
Thank you
 

TechEnthu

Member
An update from Trinnov. They released a .pdf file with retail price list for July 2022 for Altitude AVPs and amplifiers.
Key takeaways are as follows:
1. owners of AVPs with HDMI 2.0 know the price of board upgrade to HDMI 2.1 ~ €1000-€1250
2. date of HDMI 2.1 board roll out still a mystery; Cypress Tech (board design) does not know it either
3. unclear whether new production of all models feature old or new boards; some might, some not
4. added cost of ordering Altitude 16 AVP with a new board will be €700
5. DAC upgrade for €2,250 or order new production line.

Probably safe to say that new boards will come to Trinnov in H2 2022 or in 2023. I guess others will follow suit, as it seems that third gen of chips (full speed?) are put through their paces and validation process in labs.

screenshot-2022-06-26-at-12-26-57-trinnov-audio_highend-retail-price-list_july_2022-trinnov-png.3299221

screenshot-2022-06-26-at-12-28-15-trinnov-audio_highend-retail-price-list_july_2022-trinnov-png.3299222

https://iear.nl/docs/prijslijst/trinnov.pdf
 
Last edited:

Krobar

Well-known Member
An update from Trinnov. They released a .pdf file with retail price list for July 2022 for Altitude AVPs and amplifiers.
Key takeaways are as follows:
1. owners of AVPs with HDMI 2.0 know the price of board upgrade to HDMI 2.1 ~ €1000-€1250
2. date of HDMI 2.1 board roll out still a mystery; Cypress Tech (board design) does not know it either
3. unclear whether new production of all models feature old or new boards; some might, some not
4. added cost of ordering Altitude 16 AVP with a new board will be €700

Probably safe to say that new boards will come to Trinnov in H2 2022 or in 2023. I guess others will follow suit, as it seems that third gen of chips (full speed?) are put through their paces and validation process in labs.

screenshot-2022-06-26-at-12-26-57-trinnov-audio_highend-retail-price-list_july_2022-trinnov-png.3299221

screenshot-2022-06-26-at-12-28-15-trinnov-audio_highend-retail-price-list_july_2022-trinnov-png.3299222

https://iear.nl/docs/prijslijst/trinnov.pdf

Possibly more significant is the change of DACs and ADCs.
 

Cblan1224

Active Member
HDMI 2.1 chips in 2020, 2021, 2022 models of AVRs and AV processors
Reliability of chips, updates, bugs, video signal, gaming features, port speed and issues surrounding the roll out of HDMI 2.1 specification in AV machines

*Note: New production line of some models above ship with upgraded boards installed in factory and changed model number. Check with local dealer, online or call technical support.

2020 - FIRST GEN HDMI 2.1 CHIPS FOR AVRs - not a great start...
Faulty HDMI 2.1 chipsSolution SU - adapter boxSolution Yamaha - board swap
3141541
3141542
3141543
~ Problems
Panasonic Solutions offered two versions of chips (~14 min). Sound United chose faster 40 Gbps chip with single input, to pass through 4K/120Hz 10-bit RGB video images from sources onto displays. Yamaha chose slower, but multiple input 24 Gbps chip which can pass through 4K/120Hz 10-bit 4-2-0 uncompressed signal. Both chips were not tested properly with sources before AVRs came into the market and owners faced multiple problems with video signal, e.g. black screens, and features working incorrectly.

~ Solutions
Sound United offered an adapter box which solved the issue with Xbox Series X. Reliability of audio signal through AVR when used with Nvidia GPUs is still a concern. Yamaha's HDMI 2.1 inputs never worked and the company offered free board replacement scheduled for Q4 2021. Owners of Yamaha 2020 AVRs finally start to witness new HDMI boards working reliably. Those new boards will be limited to 24 Gbps on HDMI 2.1 ports and enabling firmware 1.48 arrived. Please see the chronology of events and solutions for owners of 2020 AVRs in the resources below.

1. AVR Denon and Marantz: 1-in-2-out 40 Gbps ports + adapter box
2. AVR Yamaha lower tier models: multi-input ports 24 Gbps - free board swap
2021/2022 - SECOND GEN HDMI 2.1 CHIPS - 24 and 40 Gbps
analog-jpg.3242713

Analog Devices 7672 (ex-Invecas) and others offered improved silicon. Those chips and ports should support more reliably all modern gaming and graphics features, such as FRL, UHD, HDR, HFR, VRR, ALLM, QFT and QMS. More importantly, new AVRs/AVPs should be able to deliver those features working together neatly. Switching on settings 4K+120Hz+10-bit+HDR+RGB+VRR should create high quality, immersive gaming experience with smooth, sharp and bright video signal flow. The same applies to 8K+60Hz+10-bit+HDR+4.2.0+VRR, however we need more capable GPUs in Q4 2022. The models of AVRs and AVPs from different companies are below, including estimated release dates, necessary firmware, configuration of HDMI port speeds and other features.

1. AVR Onkyo, Pioneer, Integra: multi 40 Gbps + 24 Gbps ports - ship Q4 2021
2. AVR Yamaha Aventage higher tier models A4A, A6A, A8A: ship Q4 2021
3. AVR Sound United: board upgrade for flagships and three new budget AVRs
4. AVR Arcam (Harman) 10/20/30 and AVP AV40: 7-in-3-out; upgrade Q1 2022
  • Arcam eligible models: AVR10, AVR20, AVR30 and AV40
  • Arcam offers HDMI 2.1 upgrade boards to owners at $650 and ~£650
  • AVR5 and AVR10 have 7-in-2-out layout, AVR20, AVR30 and AV40 have 7-in-3-out
  • new production line model numbers with fitted board: AVR-11, AVR-21, AVR-31, AV-41
5. AVP JBL Synthesis SDR-35 and SDP-55: 7-in-3-out; upgrade Q1 2022
6. AVR AudioControl Concert and AVP Maestro: all ports 40 Gbps? upgrade Q2?
  • apparently, AudioControl confirmed to end users HDMI 2.1 board upgrade plan
  • new production line of Maestro model numbers with fitted board: X7S and X9S
  • new production line of Concert models with fitted board: XR-4S, XR-6S and XR-8S
7. AVR and AVP Anthem: all ports 40 Gbps; mostly 7-in-3-out, upgrade Q1 2022?
8. AVP Steinway P100, P300 & Lyngdorf MP-40, MP-60: 5-in-2-out, all 40 Gbps
9. AVP Trinnov Altitude 16 and 32: testing 40 Gbps chips; release?
10. AVP StormAudio MK1, MK2, MK3: - testing 40 Gbps chips; upgrade Q2 2022?
11. AVP Monolith HTP-1 by Monoprice: upgrade time unclear
12. AVP McIntosh MX-135 and MX-180: -
2022/2023 - THIRD GEN HDMI 2.1 CHIPS - 48 Gbps

1. AVP Anthem AVM90:
the company claims all ports 48 Gbps; 7-in-3-out
2. AVP Trinnov Altitude: the company released retail price list for July 2022
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Development of full speed chips with 48 Gbps

Full speed chips are currently in development. Why would users need 48 Gbps ports? There are two reasons that will push AV machines towards full speed ports in order to avoid becoming video signal bottleneck:

SOURCES are already capable. Nvidia 3000 GPUs can output 48 Gbps video signal. Current AVRs/AVPs allow 4K/120Hz and 8K/60Hz signal pass-through, up to 40 Gbps, so Nvidia GPUs cannot push 4K/144Hz 10-bit RGB signal through AVRs onto capable display, unless there is end-to-end use of DSC. HDMI 2.1 spec still does not officially support 4K/144Hz. AVR with 40 Gbps ports is a bottleneck, both for data bandwidth and refresh rates. HDMI Forum might be preparing a minor revision to allow 144Hz refresh rates over 4K, for new 10-bit displays.

In 2022, adoption of full speed HDMI ports is already accelerating in PC environment:
  • new gen of GPUs from Nvidia (Lovelace), AMD (RDNA3) and Intel (DG2) will be capable of 48 Gbps over HDMI 2.1 and 80 Gbps over new DisplayPort 2.0
  • more PC motherboards will support FRL signal and feature level shifter HDMI 2.1 chip that will allow up to 48 Gbps output from integrated GPU on Intel and AMD's CPUs. PCs will be able to output full speed video signal without discrete GPU to new high res 10-bit displays.
  • new laptop CPUs, such as AMD's 6000 Rembrandt, already support FRL signal on die; its integrated graphics RDNA2 has 4 display pipelines for HDMI 2.1 and DP 2.0
  • current consoles can output 32 Gbps (PS5) and 40 Gbps (Xbox SX). Expected console refresh in 2023 may increase bandwidth further
  • several NUCs and mini-PCs, perfect for streaming, will come with wider bandwidth ports
DISPLAYS - New gen of 4K/144Hz and 5K/100Hz 10-bit TVs and monitors will enter the market in 2022 and 2023 and will need full bandwidth. If AVRs do not upgrade HDMI ports to full speed and firmware to allow 4K/144 Hz, AVRs will be a bottleneck which is not future proof enough. Users will avoid pass-through connections or skip HDMI 2.1 on AVRs all together and resort to DisplayPort 2.0 that will give them wider bandwidth, or use direct connections between HDMI 2.1 and displays. This enthusiast and professional segment of market will be reduced if not served well by AVRs and AVPs.
Monitors, especially high refresh 4K/5K gaming monitors and displays for creatives and other professionals, will become more bandwidth hungry than current 4K TVs are. This will drive a wave of buyers back to monitors, where they traditionally belong to. New gen of AVRs will need to respond to this trend with full speed ports and improved support in firmware. Full bandwidth is especially important as DSC feature on HDMI 2.1 ports is not widely supported on devices in consumer electronics market. All devices in a chain, source-AVR-display, need to support DSC for compressed signal to work on ports with reduced bandwidth.

~ Trinnov - hopes to implement the 48 Gbps chip, if they conclude that 2nd gen 40 Gbps chips are still not suitable for prime time (~1h 13 min)
~ others? - awating news and leaks


Current HDMI 2.1 sourcesUpcoming real HDMI 2.1 sources
(ports with 24 and up to 48 Gbps)
1. GPU - Nvidia 3000 series - 48 Gbps
  • HDR10, 12-bit, HDMI VRR driver for 4K120
  • supports DSC over HDMI 2.1
1. AMD 6000 laptops - 24/48 Gbps?
2. Intel Arc GPU DG2 - Q3?
2. GPU - AMD 6000 series - 40 Gbps
  • HDR10, 12-bit, no HDMI VRR driver for 4K120
  • no support for DSC over HDMI 2.1
3. Intel NUC 12 Enthusiast?
4. Intel laptop NUC X15 - 48Gb?
3. Console Xbox Series X - 40 Gbps
  • HDR10, 10-bit, HDMI VRR 4K40-120, DV 4K120
  • DSC support?
5. Nvidia GPU Lovelace - Q4?
6. AMD GPU RDNA3 - Q4?
4. Console PS5 - 32 Gbps
- HDR10, no VRR?
5. Asus ProArt Studiobook 16 4K OLED
-

Features and trends in AVRs and AV processors in 2021/2022:
  • companies working hard to release AV machines with 40 Gbps or combo 24/40 Gbps, in context of fire in AKM factory in Japan and global disruption due to Covid 19
  • free hardware for faulty chips in 2020 models: Sound United (adapter box), Yamaha (board)
  • not clear whether 48 Gbps chips are ready - Anthem claims AVM90 hosts full speed chips
  • gaming feature ALLM seems to be working well across the board; almost no compaints
  • gaming feature VRR has received a lot of complaints for patchiness in chain of devices
  • quality features QMS and QFT have not been demonstrated to work; testing needed
  • key features working reliably together is hit and miss: 4K+120Hz+10-bit+HDR+RGB+VRR
  • Dolby Vision 4K/120Hz pass-through is available on Onkyo, XboxX and LG 1-2 TVs
  • Teoh demonstrates 4K/120 12-bit 4-2-2 DolbyVision at 32 Gbps
  • DSC image compression feature is available on AVRs, but not in most 4K/120 TVs and monitors; so DSC is practically unusable on any AVRs with 24 Gbps ports
  • HDMI 2.1 adoption accelerates in PC and laptop environment in 2022
HDMI chart - bandwidth, resolutions, refresh rates, bit depth, RGB, chroma and DSC data
View attachment 1566354
I reached out to anthem support in regard to the hdmi board they are using, and bandwidth on the "8k avm 90" and the 8k avm70 that is suppose to be available soon. I hope I get somebody that knows what they are talking about. I also asked about the hdmi 2.1A spec since hdmi forum released it last month. We should get a passthrough for this. Sbtm would be amazing, and save a lot of time for people who operate a desktop in hdr.

I asked my cable manufacturer. I get the ruipro green 8k fiber cables. I linked the spec in the email. I'll copy and paste their response. These cables come with an hdmi adapter that plugs in to USB 2.0. I've never had to use one even at 25 or 40 feet. I'm assuming it acts as some sort of preamp. In the email, I ask if their cables do not meet the new spec, do they meet it with the USB adapter connected?

"Thank you for your purchasing.
Yes, our cable meet the new spec.
The USB adapter is for some devices which may not provide enough power for the cable working.

If the cable works well without the USB adapter, no need to use it.
Thank you,"

Very generic. Hope he's right and that it is indeed very simple for most existing products to update somehow. I assume this will need support from windows, Nvidia, or amd to really take off though

I'll let you know when Anthem gets back to me. Hopefully it isn't just someone skimming emails and writing generic "yes, we support that" like I fear 75% of customer support people do
 

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